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Retrobyter

How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?

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On 7/1/2017 at 3:16 AM, Marilyn C said:

 

Hi Retro,

I will just focus on one point, and we can get back to the others later. Let`s just recap so we can focus.  We are looking at whether the Lord and the believers in their new bodies can go through dimensions. You say we don`t really know this and that when `Jesus came, the doors being shut, stood in their midst,` (John 20: 26) you believe that there could be many reasons for that.

I brought up that verse to show that the Lord has abilities far beyond what we have, and then concerning the transfiguration of Christ, I believe we would both agree that it revealed His Deity.

So now we are looking at our glorified bodies like unto Christ`s, but obviously not His Deity. I stated that - God`s word also tells us that `there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.`  (1 Cor. 15: 44)  

Clearly the earthly body made of the dust returns to it, but we shall bear the image of the heavenly man. And that is like the Lord, who has a spiritual body that is not limited by earthly limitations.

Thus, (I concluded that) there is a natural dimension and a spiritual dimension. The Lord is quite able to operate in each as shown in His word.

You replied and brought up the scripture where the Lord said He had hands and feet, and that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. (Luke 24: 38 - 40) You say my `..conclusion that there is a "spiritual dimension," containing "spiritual bodies" that are "not limited by earthly limitations" is faulty. It doesn't fit the facts of Scripture! `

So I now reply saying our new gloried bodies will be -

-Not of the earth, dust, therefore not flesh and bones of the earth.

 

`The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly man, so are those who are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image o the heavenly man.` (1 Cor. 15: 47 - 49)

 

- Of heavenly material, substance. (2Cor. 5: 1)

-Not corruptible but incorruptible, (1 Cor. 15: 53)

-Not mortal but immortal. (1 Cor.15: 53)

 

God`s word also tells us that `there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.`  (1 Cor. 15: 44)   This `spiritual body` or body with a spirit, is clothed from heaven as the Apostle Paul tells us.

`For we know that is our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.

For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.`` (2 Cor. 4: 1 - 4)

Thus I conclude that the glorified body of the Lord Jesus Christ, with flesh and bones, is from heaven and not flesh and bones as we have, from the earth, dust. The glorified body is a covering and structure over the spirit, so we will not be naked, as scripture says. What this bodies abilities are will be glorious and wonderful, and far beyond what we can do in these earthly bodies.

 There is more but will give you time to address this.

 

 Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Thank you for this synopsis. I really appreciate it. And, thank you for allowing me to address these points.

I feel that where we mostly differ is in your statement here: "Clearly the earthly body made of the dust returns to it, but we shall bear the image of the heavenly man. And that is like the Lord, who has a spiritual body that is not limited by earthly limitations."

The problem is that the RESURRECTION EVENT is not possible if there is no true resurrection. The "spiritual body" MUST be the original body transformed or there's really no resurrection. Resurrection suggests continuity, and that's even MORE important when you realize that we ARE our bodies! We don't "leave our bodies behind" in the dust, in the earth. We ARE OUR BODIES!

When the Master Yeshua` the Messiah (the Lord Jesus the Christ) was resurrected, IT WAS HIM! It was NOT His "spiritual body" that merely LOOKED LIKE His "crucified body." Furthermore, His "spiritual body" would not have the marks of His crucifixion, if it was a different body!

You've got to understand that the Last Adam originally had the same type of body as the First Adam:

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
KJV

1 Corinthians 15:45 was quoted from Genesis 2:7:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

Such a quote gives us LOTS of information: First, it gives us a word-by-word equivalence of the words of the quoted language (Hebrew) translated into the words of the receiving language (Greek). Regardless how these two verses are translated into English, we know that...

(Greek) = (Hebrew)

haa'aadaam = ho anthroopos
vayhiy = egenato
l- = eis
nefesh = psucheen
chayaah = zoosan .

Second, the definitions of the two words, nefesh and psuchee, are basically synonymous. Therefore, we can test the definitions of both against each other in Strong's Concordance's Dictionaries:

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves,  slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

NT:5590 psuchee (psoo-khay'); from NT:5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from NT:4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from NT:2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew OT:5315, OT:7307 and OT:2416):
KJV - heart (+-ily), life, mind, soul, us, you.

NT:5594 psuchoo (psoo'-kho); a primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from NT:4154, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of NT:109, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):
KJV - wax cold.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

One can see that the concordance's writers of the dictionaries either

(1) didn't check their work between languages, like this, or
(2) allowed their own teaching and upbringing to influence how they wrote the dictionaries.

In either case, we can see the discrepancy between the definition for nefesh and the definition for psuchee, even though there's no discrepancy between the definitions of naafash and psuchoo. It's a little like the old Sesame Street jingle, "One of these things is not like the others." And, the one of the four that sticks out so differently from the other three is the definition for "psuchee."

That's enough for now, but I hope you can see these points.

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13 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hey retro,

Yes, I agree with you.  I would say the most clear example we have of this is in regards to the prophets, who are specifically mentioned in Revelation in regards to the time for rewarding.  I am sure there will be others as well based on their faithful service, but I suppose my reaction to the post was in regards to the implication that someone like myself would be destined for a greater inheritance than OT saints, which the vast majority of the prophets would be included in.

God bless

Shalom, wingnut-.

All I can ask is, Why? Why should you be "destined for a greater inheritance than OT saints?" See, it's THIS mentality that never really sat right in my gut.

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42 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

All I can ask is, Why? Why should you be "destined for a greater inheritance than OT saints?" See, it's THIS mentality that never really sat right in my gut.

 

Well, hopefully we will both discover the answer to that question, because I am wondering the same thing.  Not only does it not sit well in my gut, but it seems to fly in the face of what Paul had to say in Romans.

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19 hours ago, Swords99 said:

True, believers will have a glorified body like Christ's which will go through doors and windows and be from one place to the next in a second as Christ demonstrated after His resurrection.

The Jews never had a heavenly kingdom promised to them but an earthly one where Christ will be their king and rule in Jerusalem.

Shalom, Swords99.

The Kingdom that Yeshua` offered to Israel when He was here during His first advent was taken with the King when He left this earth. It had not yet arrived, nor was it scheduled to arrive before His return. He IS the embodiment of that Kingdom! NO KING, NO KINGDOM! When the King can arrive, so can His Kingdom. We are instructed to make subjects FOR His Kingdom, but that's not the same as having the Kingdom here!

Actually, a "heavenly kingdom" means that the "Kingdom" comes "out of the sky." Yeshua` the Messiah (the Christ) will return out of the sky just as He left this earth. (Acts 1:9-11.) When He (and it) returns, the "heavenly Kingdom" BECOMES the "earthly Kingdom," as promised!

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12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

I`ll just do a point at a time. See the bold phrase I have highlighted, that is an error I believe. Being grafted in, is a picture of us under the authority of Christ. Israel and also the nations (of the saved) will also be under the authority of Christ. being part of the `same olive tree,` is all of us under Christ`s supreme authority, and placed where He says we will serve.

Marilyn.

 

So how then do you understand this passage?

 

John 15  “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another."

 

What in there do you see addressing authority of believers and their placement?  Again, the only distinction I see being made is between belief and unbelief.  Also the most interesting part in this passage is verse 16, where we are specifically told He chose us, a clear reference to election which is an all inclusive statement for everyone associated with the vine (Jesus).

God bless

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hello Marilyn,

Yes, we also agree that we are grafted into the Lord Himself, which by definition is the Body of Christ.

 

16 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

I`ll just do a point at a time. See the bold phrase I have highlighted, that is an error I believe.

 

In regards to this in particular, the first statement being mine, and your response to it. I am confused then by what you mean in your original statement to me that I responded to, which was this below statement of yours?

 

21 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Concerning what or who we are grafted into, it is the Lord Himself. He is the holy root that nourishes us not Israel.

 

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17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

Wonderful promises to the believers, the overcomers -

- eat of the tree of life, (Christ Himself, his character and life)

- pillar in the temple of my God, (Temple - is Christ, and we shall be part of worshipping Him and the Father.)

- name of my God, (name meaning authority - of the Father throughout God`s great kingdom - all realms)

- name of the New Jerusalem, which comes down from my God our of heaven, (Authority in the city also which will be just above the earth). 

- my (Jesus`) new name, (authority from the third heaven the seat of Christ`s authority and power.)

 

Hello Marilyn,

I am not sure I'm understanding you here, specifically in regards to the authority issue.  Where exactly in scripture is this idea located?  I think maybe you are seeing all of these things in a spiritually symbolic way maybe?  I would say if that is the case, here are a couple of thoughts to consider in that regard.

 

Revelation 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

 

John tells us that the New Jerusalem is the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.  Now according to scripture, that is a reference used to describe believers, some would argue that it is only a reference in regards to the church even.  Of course as you pointed out in one of your posts, that is not true, it is also promised to Israel.  Once again though we find ourselves back to the same result from scripture, one body all in the same place.

Another problem I see with looking at this as strictly a spiritual reference is in the physical description.  John goes into great detail describing measurements and other physical attributes of this city, not to mention the aforementioned Old Testament prophecies that are promised to Israel with no spiritual aspects included at all, just the physical elements.

 

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God."

 

This particular verse also is a statement being made by God directly, a promise.  This is not a spiritual reference, it specifically states that He will dwell with them, and will be with them as their God.  We all know now as believers that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, so this declaration is speaking to something physical.

 

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

As a royal priesthood, (Kingpriests) we, the Body of Christ have the highest serving responsibility in all realms of God`s great kingdom.

 

We are also told in Revelation by God that He is making all things new, all would include all realms wouldn't it?  It does say directly that not only a new earth but a new heaven as well correct?

 

Revelation 21  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

 

Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

 

God bless

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18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

That is who the city, the New Jerusalem has been prepared for, not us for we have a `better,` a greater dominion to serve in.

`God having provided something BETTER FOR US...` (Heb. 11: 40)

 

Hello Marilyn,

I think my previous post covered everything in this post, except for this particular quote.  That's only half of the verse you posted there and does not at all represent the context.

 

Hebrews 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

 

Apart from us they should not be made perfect, this speaks to the opposite of the separation you are suggesting.  What was required for all was a Savior, it is Jesus that makes them perfect, just like us.  Having been born before the Messiah came does not diminish that all of the people mentioned in Hebrews 11 had great faith in the promise that was to come.   And what God provided that was better for us, was Jesus.  This is clarified in what follows.

 

Hebrews 12  Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

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8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Thank you for this synopsis. I really appreciate it. And, thank you for allowing me to address these points.

I feel that where we mostly differ is in your statement here: "Clearly the earthly body made of the dust returns to it, but we shall bear the image of the heavenly man. And that is like the Lord, who has a spiritual body that is not limited by earthly limitations."

The problem is that the RESURRECTION EVENT is not possible if there is no true resurrection. The "spiritual body" MUST be the original body transformed or there's really no resurrection. Resurrection suggests continuity, and that's even MORE important when you realize that we ARE our bodies! We don't "leave our bodies behind" in the dust, in the earth. We ARE OUR BODIES!

 

Hi Retro,

OK, so our changed bodies have the appearance of our earthly bodies but are made from heavenly substance, `desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven.`  Our bodies now are made from the dust of the earth, but one day, (soon) we will be changed, and be clothed with our new covering from heaven. (2 Cor. 5: 2)

Marilyn.

 

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6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

So how then do you understand this passage?

 

John 15  “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another."

 

What in there do you see addressing authority of believers and their placement?  Again, the only distinction I see being made is between belief and unbelief.  Also the most interesting part in this passage is verse 16, where we are specifically told He chose us, a clear reference to election which is an all inclusive statement for everyone associated with the vine (Jesus).

God bless

 

Hi wingnut,

I see that the Lord is talking to the disciples on the eve of His being betrayed. He is encouraging and comforting His disciples with those wonderful truths. I believe they are truth for us also. I do not so much see authority spoken of but a close relationship - servants to friends.

As to election - to me it is like going through a door, on the outside is a sign, `whosoever will may come,` and then on the inside, another sign, `chosen, elect of God,` in that He knows who will go through the door - accept Jesus as Saviour.

Marilyn. 

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