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Retrobyter

How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

In regards to this in particular, the first statement being mine, and your response to it. I am confused then by what you mean in your original statement to me that I responded to, which was this below statement of yours?

 

Hi wingnut,

I think I misunderstood you. You said -

`Yes, we also agree that we are grafted into the Lord Himself, which by definition is the Body of Christ. `

I thought you meant the Lord was the Body of Christ however now I think you meant the `we` are the Body of Christ. Sorry for the confusion. Difficult sometimes with just typing and waiting for answers. But still it is wonderful to be able to discuss with each other here on Worthy.

Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hello Marilyn,

I am not sure I'm understanding you here, specifically in regards to the authority issue.  Where exactly in scripture is this idea located?  I think maybe you are seeing all of these things in a spiritually symbolic way maybe?  

Hi wingnut,

This is what you are referring to. I said -

Wonderful promises to the believers, the overcomers -

- eat of the tree of life, (Christ Himself, his character and life)

- pillar in the temple of my God, (Temple - is Christ, and we shall be part of worshipping Him and the Father.)

- name of my God, (name meaning authority - of the Father throughout God`s great kingdom - all realms)

- name of the New Jerusalem, which comes down from my God our of heaven, (Authority in the city also which will be just above the earth). 

- my (Jesus`) new name, (authority from the third heaven the seat of Christ`s authority and power.)

 

Name - Gk. word, `onoma,`  (fig,) meaning authority and character.

 

Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Marilyn,

Revelation 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

John tells us that the New Jerusalem is the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.  Now according to scripture, that is a reference used to describe believers, some would argue that it is only a reference in regards to the church even.  Of course as you pointed out in one of your posts, that is not true, it is also promised to Israel.  Once again though we find ourselves back to the same result from scripture, one body all in the same place.

Hi wingnut,

I do not believe that the Body of Christ will reside in the new Jerusalem. We have never been promised that, from what I see in scripture. Would you care to show why you think that?

Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hello Marilyn,

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God."

This particular verse also is a statement being made by God directly, a promise.  This is not a spiritual reference, it specifically states that He will dwell with them, and will be with them as their God.  We all know now as believers that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, so this declaration is speaking to something physical.

We are also told in Revelation by God that He is making all things new, all would include all realms wouldn't it?  It does say directly that not only a new earth but a new heaven as well correct?

Revelation 21  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

God bless

Hi wingnut,

Do you believe the Lord is WITH you now and in the future. Does He have to be physically following you around? God is a spirit and thus will be everywhere as He is now. The wonderful point is that He will be with those in the New Jerusalem in a specific way - bringing blessings, harmony, unity, wisdom, knowledge, community etc etc.

I agree all realms will be made new - no sin, no decay and all under the Lordship of Christ who is the supreme ruler with His seat of power & authority over all.

Marilyn.

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53 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Hello Marilyn,

I think my previous post covered everything in this post, except for this particular quote.  That's only half of the verse you posted there and does not at all represent the context.

Hebrews 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Apart from us they should not be made perfect, this speaks to the opposite of the separation you are suggesting.  What was required for all was a Savior, it is Jesus that makes them perfect, just like us.  Having been born before the Messiah came does not diminish that all of the people mentioned in Hebrews 11 had great faith in the promise that was to come.   And what God provided that was better for us, was Jesus.  This is clarified in what follows.

Hebrews 12  Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hi wingnut,

Now I do understand you and Retro finding this point difficult. Who are we but lumps of earthen clay, made for the scrap heap, till our Lord came and touched us. I am nothing, you are nothing without the Saviour and we all know it. The OT saints are the same, being just people who were sinful till God enlightened them to His promises for them. Many were tortured and died but kept looking for the promise of the `city.`

I know from reading God`s word to the Body of Christ that we have been promised to rule and reign (serving others) with Christ on His throne. I don`t deserve it, I didn`t think of it, and unless I read it in God`s word I never would have imagined that I will be in the realms above where Christ`s seat of power and authority will be.

`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

And that throne we know from God`s word is `far above all...not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)

The only thing that helps me to believe this is that only what is of the Lord that the Holy Spirit has worked out, will be taken. Thus nothing of my sinful self, it will be burnt up, the dross, the selfishness, etc.

Now as to the - Hebrews 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

That shows that the two groups, the Body of Christ and the OT saints are linked. That is what the `bride` illustration is all about. It is not some gooey feeling, but an illustration of a groom and bride becoming one, ie in harmony, unity.

The Body of Christ with the Lord the groom, will serve in the third heaven, while the city, coming down, as a bride, will serve in the lower heavens. Together these two rulerships will bring peace, harmony and righteous rulership throughout God`s great kingdom. The two rulerships need to operate under Christ and in both realms that Christ made for Himself. (Col.1: 16)

Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

OK, so our changed bodies have the appearance of our earthly bodies but are made from heavenly substance, `desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven.`  Our bodies now are made from the dust of the earth, but one day, (soon) we will be changed, and be clothed with our new covering from heaven. (2 Cor. 5: 2)

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Sorry, but do you know what the "heavenly substances" are? They are things like nitrogen gas (78%), oxygen gas (21%), argon gas (0.93%), water vapor (between 0 and 4%), carbon dioxide (0.038%), and trace elements and compounds.

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3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

I see that the Lord is talking to the disciples on the eve of His being betrayed. He is encouraging and comforting His disciples with those wonderful truths. I believe they are truth for us also. I do not so much see authority spoken of but a close relationship - servants to friends.

 

Hello Marilyn,

Thanks for clarifying for me on this.  I suppose my next question would be this, from the passage in John 15, would you agree that the vine is what we are grafted into?

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3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

I think I misunderstood you. You said -

`Yes, we also agree that we are grafted into the Lord Himself, which by definition is the Body of Christ. `

I thought you meant the Lord was the Body of Christ however now I think you meant the `we` are the Body of Christ. Sorry for the confusion. Difficult sometimes with just typing and waiting for answers. But still it is wonderful to be able to discuss with each other here on Worthy.

Marilyn.

 

No problem sister, just looking for clarification is all.  It's one of the reasons I enjoy discussing things with you, we both make an effort to understand where the other is coming from, even if we don't necessarily agree.  I did mean we are the Body of Christ, we definitely agree on that.  Maybe the confusion is how we see that in the spiritual sense, as in what makes us the Body of Christ?  Could just be a difference in how we define it, but fairly certain we see this the same way.

God bless

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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Sorry, but do you know what the "heavenly substances" are? They are things like nitrogen gas (78%), oxygen gas (21%), argon gas (0.93%), water vapor (between 0 and 4%), carbon dioxide (0.038%), and trace elements and compounds.

Thanks Retro,

Science was not my best subject, however.....I was speaking of the angelic realm & I have no idea what the `substance` (only word I could think of) would be, but it is immortal and incorruptible, which isn`t anything in this corrupted universe.

Marilyn.

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1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Marilyn,

Thanks for clarifying for me on this.  I suppose my next question would be this, from the passage in John 15, would you agree that the vine is what we are grafted into?

Hi wingnut,

 The Lord is giving us a picture of abiding and how to be fruitful. I know trees can have different branches grafted in to them, and vines....well I lived in a grape growing area for a while and even picked the grapes on week-ends after teaching, and I think you can have an old vine stock and then graft in a younger vine.

However I think the two illustrations are for different purposes though, one showing us, individual believers how to be fruitful and the other, the two groups (Israel and the Body of Christ) in/under Christ, nourished and supported.

Marilyn.

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      The Word Study Dictionary tells us this about Gog:
      He is pictured as a great enemy against God's people. Ezekiel 38:9 NASB "You will go up, you will come like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land, you and all your troops, and many peoples with you."
      He is from the land of Magog or possibly "from the land of Gog." Gog. i.e., mountain, in reference to the Caucasus mountains, the chief seat of the Scythian people. Note: Rather, "Gog (the prince) of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal." The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury
      The Lord sets Himself against Gog (Eze_38:2). Gog will lead a coalition of nations against God's people who are then dwelling securely in the land of Israel (Eze_38:14-16).
      With the addition of the words, God's people who are then dwelling securely in ...Israel. They have turned this so that we are looking at the church and not Israel, which is incorrect.
      But God, in fact, will bring Gog forth and will destroy him and his people. Ezekiel 39:1-2; Ezekiel 38:19-23
      The Lord spoke about this through other prophets (Eze_38:17-18). Ezekiel 38:17 MKJV So says the Lord Jehovah: Are you he of whom I have spoken in former days, by the hand of My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days and years that I would bring you against them?
      The multitudes of Gog will be buried in the Valley of Hamon Gog, that is, "multitudes of Gog" (Eze_39:11), Ezekiel 39:11 CJB " 'When that day comes, I will give Gog a place there in Isra'el for graves, the Travelers' Valley, east of the sea; and it will block the travelers' passage. There they will bury Gog and all his horde, and they will rename it the Valley of Hamon-Gog [horde of Gog].
      The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature informs us that: They are the name of a mixed race dwelling in the extreme north, comprehended by the Greeks under the name of the Scythians; (2.) to the center and representative of their race, i.e. their king (Ezekiel 38:39). Gog comes forth from the distant north (Eze_38:15-23; Eze_39:2), ... And, if you are stickler for history - Interpreters have given very different explanations of the terms Gog and Magog; but they have generally understood them as symbolical expressions for the heathen nations of Asia, or more particularly for the Scythians, a vague knowledge of whom seems to have reached the Jews in Palestine about that period. Thus Josephus (Ant. 1:6, 3) has dropped the Hebrew word Magog, and rendered it by Σκύθαι;
      See attachment - Classic Bible Maps, The World as known to the Hebrews
      Of the maps, I looked at to better understand this ancient classic version shows me more and divergent details than any other map, as it points out Gog and Magog, and where they were located. I have also provided a link to Wikipedia which continues to fill in the blanks in understanding and prophecy with highly detailed information about the Scythians. Because of the quantity of information found there, which all seems important, I am only going to suggest that the interested pursue that there. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians]
      As you read the information, consider where Gog might come from. It may help you to understand more clearly how the Turkish "president" Recep Tayyip Erdoğan might best fill the role of Gog.
      Just for the fun of it, I searched the internet to find out if Genghis Khan could have been a Scythian. The Headline read, “Not Just Genghis Khan - Scythians Show Genetic Blending With Europe 2,000 Years Ago.” http://www.science20.com/news_articles/not_just_genghis_khan_scythians_show_genetic_blending_europe_2000_years_ago-96314
      Here is was I gather so far.
      Gog, from the disinherited family line of Reuben, moves North and becomes a nomadic mounted and warring nation known as the Scythians. They ranged into China, Siberia, Egypt, Asia Minor and as far south as the Northern African nations, however, they seem to be centrally located around Turkey and the Caspian Sea. They are heavily influenced and integrated by the surrounding nations such as Persia, Syria, and the Caucasus regions. They conquered Nineveh, the Assyrians, and the Medes. Having relations as violent as Genghis Khan one can assume that slaughter was their general theme. This is the people that God sees as one of Israel's few remaining thorns in the flesh.
       
       

    • By Sojourner414
      Iran Fires Rockets Into Golan Heights From Syria
      From NY Times:
      (more)
      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/09/world/middleeast/israel-iran-attack.html
    • By Jonathan BeWell
      Dear Lord, in Jesus Christ's name I pray.   Welcome Holy Spirit, embody this nation, government and military. God bless Donald Trump, keep him protected, helped and leading your nation strong and free. God bless Justin Trudeau, bend his will to yours, humble him and teach him what he needs to know of You. Thank you Lord for the peace talks in Korea! This is an appreciated answer to so many pleading prayers! We pray for the same peace and understanding in Cameroon, please have mercy and save its people. Please forgive us of all our sins. Especially excuse evil where we oppose, mock and vilify You. Please Lord, we know not what we do. Bless and revive us Lord, thy kingdom come. Put us through the painful process of cleansing this world, nation, generation and church of backsliding, sleepiness, enemies within, blasphemy, watering down of God's truth, word and law. Prune and throw such chaff into the lake of fire. Have us accept and cherish your free gift of salvation and eternal life immediately through your Son's sacrifice in place of our sin debt. May we all pray for this in our life now! Heal, restore and revive your body of Christ saved to do good works in the Lord. May we be light, salt and disciples to this desperate world. Hallelujah, he is risen, he is risen indeed!   I pray this sincerely for all lost, enemies and loved ones in Jesus Christ's name, amen!   GregoryB
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