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Retrobyter

How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

In regards to this in particular, the first statement being mine, and your response to it. I am confused then by what you mean in your original statement to me that I responded to, which was this below statement of yours?

 

Hi wingnut,

I think I misunderstood you. You said -

`Yes, we also agree that we are grafted into the Lord Himself, which by definition is the Body of Christ. `

I thought you meant the Lord was the Body of Christ however now I think you meant the `we` are the Body of Christ. Sorry for the confusion. Difficult sometimes with just typing and waiting for answers. But still it is wonderful to be able to discuss with each other here on Worthy.

Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hello Marilyn,

I am not sure I'm understanding you here, specifically in regards to the authority issue.  Where exactly in scripture is this idea located?  I think maybe you are seeing all of these things in a spiritually symbolic way maybe?  

Hi wingnut,

This is what you are referring to. I said -

Wonderful promises to the believers, the overcomers -

- eat of the tree of life, (Christ Himself, his character and life)

- pillar in the temple of my God, (Temple - is Christ, and we shall be part of worshipping Him and the Father.)

- name of my God, (name meaning authority - of the Father throughout God`s great kingdom - all realms)

- name of the New Jerusalem, which comes down from my God our of heaven, (Authority in the city also which will be just above the earth). 

- my (Jesus`) new name, (authority from the third heaven the seat of Christ`s authority and power.)

 

Name - Gk. word, `onoma,`  (fig,) meaning authority and character.

 

Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Marilyn,

Revelation 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

John tells us that the New Jerusalem is the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.  Now according to scripture, that is a reference used to describe believers, some would argue that it is only a reference in regards to the church even.  Of course as you pointed out in one of your posts, that is not true, it is also promised to Israel.  Once again though we find ourselves back to the same result from scripture, one body all in the same place.

Hi wingnut,

I do not believe that the Body of Christ will reside in the new Jerusalem. We have never been promised that, from what I see in scripture. Would you care to show why you think that?

Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hello Marilyn,

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God."

This particular verse also is a statement being made by God directly, a promise.  This is not a spiritual reference, it specifically states that He will dwell with them, and will be with them as their God.  We all know now as believers that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, so this declaration is speaking to something physical.

We are also told in Revelation by God that He is making all things new, all would include all realms wouldn't it?  It does say directly that not only a new earth but a new heaven as well correct?

Revelation 21  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

God bless

Hi wingnut,

Do you believe the Lord is WITH you now and in the future. Does He have to be physically following you around? God is a spirit and thus will be everywhere as He is now. The wonderful point is that He will be with those in the New Jerusalem in a specific way - bringing blessings, harmony, unity, wisdom, knowledge, community etc etc.

I agree all realms will be made new - no sin, no decay and all under the Lordship of Christ who is the supreme ruler with His seat of power & authority over all.

Marilyn.

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53 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Hello Marilyn,

I think my previous post covered everything in this post, except for this particular quote.  That's only half of the verse you posted there and does not at all represent the context.

Hebrews 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Apart from us they should not be made perfect, this speaks to the opposite of the separation you are suggesting.  What was required for all was a Savior, it is Jesus that makes them perfect, just like us.  Having been born before the Messiah came does not diminish that all of the people mentioned in Hebrews 11 had great faith in the promise that was to come.   And what God provided that was better for us, was Jesus.  This is clarified in what follows.

Hebrews 12  Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hi wingnut,

Now I do understand you and Retro finding this point difficult. Who are we but lumps of earthen clay, made for the scrap heap, till our Lord came and touched us. I am nothing, you are nothing without the Saviour and we all know it. The OT saints are the same, being just people who were sinful till God enlightened them to His promises for them. Many were tortured and died but kept looking for the promise of the `city.`

I know from reading God`s word to the Body of Christ that we have been promised to rule and reign (serving others) with Christ on His throne. I don`t deserve it, I didn`t think of it, and unless I read it in God`s word I never would have imagined that I will be in the realms above where Christ`s seat of power and authority will be.

`To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

And that throne we know from God`s word is `far above all...not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)

The only thing that helps me to believe this is that only what is of the Lord that the Holy Spirit has worked out, will be taken. Thus nothing of my sinful self, it will be burnt up, the dross, the selfishness, etc.

Now as to the - Hebrews 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

That shows that the two groups, the Body of Christ and the OT saints are linked. That is what the `bride` illustration is all about. It is not some gooey feeling, but an illustration of a groom and bride becoming one, ie in harmony, unity.

The Body of Christ with the Lord the groom, will serve in the third heaven, while the city, coming down, as a bride, will serve in the lower heavens. Together these two rulerships will bring peace, harmony and righteous rulership throughout God`s great kingdom. The two rulerships need to operate under Christ and in both realms that Christ made for Himself. (Col.1: 16)

Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

OK, so our changed bodies have the appearance of our earthly bodies but are made from heavenly substance, `desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven.`  Our bodies now are made from the dust of the earth, but one day, (soon) we will be changed, and be clothed with our new covering from heaven. (2 Cor. 5: 2)

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Sorry, but do you know what the "heavenly substances" are? They are things like nitrogen gas (78%), oxygen gas (21%), argon gas (0.93%), water vapor (between 0 and 4%), carbon dioxide (0.038%), and trace elements and compounds.

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3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

I see that the Lord is talking to the disciples on the eve of His being betrayed. He is encouraging and comforting His disciples with those wonderful truths. I believe they are truth for us also. I do not so much see authority spoken of but a close relationship - servants to friends.

 

Hello Marilyn,

Thanks for clarifying for me on this.  I suppose my next question would be this, from the passage in John 15, would you agree that the vine is what we are grafted into?

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3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

I think I misunderstood you. You said -

`Yes, we also agree that we are grafted into the Lord Himself, which by definition is the Body of Christ. `

I thought you meant the Lord was the Body of Christ however now I think you meant the `we` are the Body of Christ. Sorry for the confusion. Difficult sometimes with just typing and waiting for answers. But still it is wonderful to be able to discuss with each other here on Worthy.

Marilyn.

 

No problem sister, just looking for clarification is all.  It's one of the reasons I enjoy discussing things with you, we both make an effort to understand where the other is coming from, even if we don't necessarily agree.  I did mean we are the Body of Christ, we definitely agree on that.  Maybe the confusion is how we see that in the spiritual sense, as in what makes us the Body of Christ?  Could just be a difference in how we define it, but fairly certain we see this the same way.

God bless

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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Sorry, but do you know what the "heavenly substances" are? They are things like nitrogen gas (78%), oxygen gas (21%), argon gas (0.93%), water vapor (between 0 and 4%), carbon dioxide (0.038%), and trace elements and compounds.

Thanks Retro,

Science was not my best subject, however.....I was speaking of the angelic realm & I have no idea what the `substance` (only word I could think of) would be, but it is immortal and incorruptible, which isn`t anything in this corrupted universe.

Marilyn.

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1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Marilyn,

Thanks for clarifying for me on this.  I suppose my next question would be this, from the passage in John 15, would you agree that the vine is what we are grafted into?

Hi wingnut,

 The Lord is giving us a picture of abiding and how to be fruitful. I know trees can have different branches grafted in to them, and vines....well I lived in a grape growing area for a while and even picked the grapes on week-ends after teaching, and I think you can have an old vine stock and then graft in a younger vine.

However I think the two illustrations are for different purposes though, one showing us, individual believers how to be fruitful and the other, the two groups (Israel and the Body of Christ) in/under Christ, nourished and supported.

Marilyn.

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      3:7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: …8 ‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. …”
      Faithful, but barely hanging on – that is the truth behind thousands of churches and literally MILLIONS of anemic and sickly Christians. 
      Alzheimer’s Christian: Remembers only selectively what God has done before, but fails to be able to connect with what may be happening in the Kingdom around him today. Autistic Christian: Stuck on a phrase and often inappropriate in responses. Unable to connect to anyone that has no special training to understand them. Epileptic Christian: Not in control of all energies expended. Seems passionate but strangely disconnected from the body, randomly expending great energy not directed by any leadership or head. Leprous Christian: Unfeeling toward other parts of the body and infectiously causing a spreading numbness of insensitivity that kills good growth. Obese Christian: Ready to sit and eat with no real intent to get up and DO anything, they become expert food critics of the messages they hear. Burned Christian: Because of an experience that often has nothing to do with the current body they are in, they are in constant need of careful handling and touchy care. Anorexic Christian: Unable to see themselves as God says they are, they continue to self inspect for every flaw, totally overtaken in their own issues. Heart Diseased Christian: Unable to function normally because of other contributing behaviors that have weakened their endurance.  
      (7) Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22) - the church with the lukewarm faith (3:16). Lukewarm/Luxury Distraction-focused more on themselves: 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked…”
      1 Peter 4:17  
      17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
      Hebrews 12:5-8
      5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
      6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
      7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
      8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
       
      So I humbly submit this topic not to condemn but to bring awareness to our need to judge ourselves rather than what others are guilty of in their walk with God. 
      Your thoughts please....
       
       
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