Defining Modesty

[frienduff thaylorde]

4 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Dressing modestly is not only for Church but at all times 1 Timothy 2:9-10. It reveals the godliness of the heart and honors God.

 

Welcome to Worthy

Lil miss muffet sat on her tuffet telling the truth today...................amen.

[FactSeeker]

2 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings FactSeeker

      Welcome again,glad to have you here with us Brother......I understand why you do not want to discuss 1 Timothy 2:9......this had little to do with our culture as everything to do with the pagan temple prostitutes of that time,place....I think the point of being modest in apparel really has everything to do with your second addition ..."causing no one to stumble "because of what you were going to discuss,though you didn't  LUST.....

    Personally I don't thing the Adam & Eve wearing fig leaves & then covering their private parts is anything for us to consider because Adam & Ever were by themselves,they did not know shame until they ate from the tree of knowledge(good & evil)and they were ashamed & hid from God .....& yes,you did mention the guilt of their sin,I agree......God did clothe them but again I think it is irrelevent because they had only each other & their children....so we don't get much help there,do we?

    Well,if we do consider 2 Timothy 2:9 and the "reason" it is Written we do understand that these women they were referring to were enticing to men,they adorned themselves to seduce,I have no doubt that they revealed their legs by having a split in the garment & probably wore there garments in a way to accentuate their figure.....I believe this is what modesty means,not to wear anything that accentuates any particular part of the body that would be attractive to the opposite sex    I think it is that simple and I do not believe that anything about "society today" has any relevance on Gods WAYS....being Godly,pleasing & acceptable to God    

    When I was younger(& from youth),I dressed in very risque clothing,I was raised in Ny in a very "fashion conscious" family...everything was very trendy,sexy & over the top......when I really surrendered to the Lord I was not even yet aware of these things,I thought I looked just wonderful,lol  The funny thing is I NEVER thought about it or made any efforts to change,one day Holy Spirit laid it on my heart that this was not the way a woman of GOD was to look.....Hmmm,I though,okay...it hjust seemed so distasteful in my eyes with the Heart & Mind of Christ.....my point is that I don't believe we have a specific verse of Scripture or Written Instruction on what is "modest" but I do know that when we seek Him & only want to please Him because we love Him we Receive Wisdom & Understanding and see through His Eyes......I don't look frumpy by any means but I dress modestly,nothing real clingy,nothing short or low cut  and thats how a woman should dress.....the men,of course their chests should be covered & I think its just as immodest for them to were those tight top & leotard bottoms with there biceps bulging.....plus its just vanity & pride anyway(carnal minded)

    Well,I doubt I was helpful but theres my little 2 cents......to be Godly,Holy,is Represent Christ,His Body,not ours.......it does not matter what the world deems acceptable

                                                                                                                With love-in Christ,Kwik

Hey, quik! What you said about the meaning of "modest:" 

κόσμιος
From G2889 (in its primary sense); orderly, that is, decorous: - of good behaviour, modest.

This is the word translated to "modest." It's not καταστολη, which is what most people argue from. Which are you intending? I don't see how κόσμιος fits with the idea you're setting.

Also, where do you get that as being the reason 1Ti 2:9 (you said 2Ti but I assume you meant 1Ti) was written? The text itself seems to be pointing to extravagance: gold/costly array, etc. and this idea goes better with κόσμιος. Please explain more?

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About Adam and Eve: Yes, they were alone - just the two of them at that point, no children around either. However, God would be around - and they felt shame. It seems that part of the curse involved an ontological change that intended for us to feel shame over having our bodies completely exposed. Based on Gen 3, I can't and won't argue in favor of full nudity. To clarify, I'm trying to determine not whether we need to wear clothing, but how much is needed.

I'm happy that you're consistent in saying that men should cover their chests, too. This is my biggest complaint with christendom saying women can't go topless: they don't say the same about men! And there's no biblical basis for this inconsistency, that I've seen.

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Your experience with your conscience is important, and perhaps the spirit would do that generally with other people, too. However, I'm looking for hard rules I can lay down, which requires scripture.

 

Thanks!

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by FactSeeker

[FactSeeker]

2 hours ago, Blueyedjewel said:

My definition of modesty is that people see MY FACE FIRST .  I dont want to draw attention to my body but to my face.  If I have made the effort to be modest and I am not accentuating body parts that another could lust over; I am honoring the LORD. I am not responsible for those who will lust anyways. Some just do and that is the nature of their hearts. I like what Kwik said. I agree ! 

 

As far as lust is concerned: 

I can look at a man and think he is an attractive man but the moment I allow my thoughts to start going any further than that I am lusting.  It is a very fine line and I dont cross it. If I were to  find myself crossing that fine line , I take captive my thoughts to the obedience of Christ and I ask God to forgive me. 

 

Welcome to worthy,

Blessings  

The Bible seems to approve of being attracted to a person's figure (Joseph, Rachel)

I'm not saying we should get naked and show it off, but how do we draw the line between being attractive (including our figure) but not going too far -- in either direction? (Nudity vs "loose, layered and long")

[FactSeeker]

7 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I do not support your view on 1 Timothy. I do not deny any part of scripture. I take all scripture literally.

You take the English literally? Okay, we won't be able to get anywhere then. I outright deny the way you interpret, we have no common ground.

[frienduff thaylorde]

I say ponder this.  IS it a SIN to cause others to SIN.

IS lusting after a woman a SIN.  YES

and men who wear tight clothes too , cause others to lust.

IF i go in a church wearning short shorts and no shirt.................OOPS we got problems

cause some are going to be looking etc

SAME for any woman................if she wears tight well formed clothing.............Come now.......let us not lie

all can be tempted.  SO THE POINT IS...................Cause not thy brother to sin.

Besides , when i used to wear them tank tops , or no shirt, etc.........i may have said it was more comfortable

BUT REALLY I WAS LIKEING THE ATTENTION , the lust from other women.  LETS KEEP IT REAL

GOOD THING JESUS , true GRACE changes a man or woman. SO , KEEP THE CLOTHES LONG and WELL CONCEALING>

[FactSeeker]

5 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

I say ponder this.  IS it a SIN to cause others to SIN.

IS lusting after a woman a SIN.  YES

and men who wear tight clothes too , cause others to lust.

IF i go in a church wearning short shorts and no shirt.................OOPS we got problems

cause some are going to be looking etc

SAME for any woman................if she wears tight well formed clothing.............Come now.......let us not lie

all can be tempted.  SO THE POINT IS...................Cause not thy brother to sin.

Besides , when i used to wear them tank tops , or no shirt, etc.........i may have said it was more comfortable

BUT REALLY I WAS LIKEING THE ATTENTION , the lust from other women.  LETS KEEP IT REAL

GOOD THING JESUS , true GRACE changes a man or woman. SO , KEEP THE CLOTHES LONG and WELL CONCEALING>

 

Maybe later I'll re-write my second point for you to address. I could have stated it (perhaps much) better.

And I like that you also are consistent with saying men should cover, not just women.

Edited July 16, 2017 by FactSeeker

[Guest]

1 hour ago, FactSeeker said:

The Bible seems to approve of being attracted to a person's figure (Joseph, Rachel)

I'm not saying we should get naked and show it off, but how do we draw the line between being attractive (including our figure) but not going too far -- in either direction? (Nudity vs "loose, layered and long")

They wore robes back then. Joseph was able to see that Rachel  had a waistline but thats about it.

Attractive to the carnal mind is different than those who see spiritually.

 I already explained to you what I deem modest and I agree with Kwik as well. 

[FactSeeker]

5 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

They wore robes back then. Joseph was able to see that Rachel  had a waistline but thats about it.

Attractive to the carnal mind is different than those who see spiritually.

 I already explained to you what I deem modest and I agree with Kwik as well. 

 

I appreciate your activity in my thread.

 

Unrelated instances, FYI:

 

Gen 29:17  Leah's eyes were delicate, but Rachel was beautiful of form and appearance. 

Gen 39:6  Thus he left all that he had in Joseph's hand, and he did not know what he had except for the bread which he ate. Now Joseph was handsome in form and appearance. 


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I'm looking for biblical data I can use as proof, essentially. What you deem as modest doesn't help me tell someone else: what you're doing is evil, stop it! My opinion nor yours is important when it comes to defining morality, thus I need data.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by FactSeeker

[LadyKay]

1 hour ago, FactSeeker said:

I'm not saying we should get naked and show it off, but how do we draw the line between being attractive (including our figure) but not going too far -- in either direction? (Nudity vs "loose, layered and long")

Well that is up to you I guess.  And what God directs you to do. 

[kwikphilly]

Quote

  15 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

leotard bottoms

for men? for me? no, no, not in a million years LOL.

Blessings Yown...

    I was waiting for someone to notice that & yes(believe it or not,lol)  these body builder guys,bicycle riders etc...all wear what I would consider "a leotard"....besides showing what they ate for breakfast they do look ridiculous to me as well.....LOL                                               With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

I do agree with Blueyedjewel as well & not so much MsMuffet because it is not that FactSeeker does not take Gods Word literally.....Firstly it's all trans-literations that we read anyway & to interpret the "English" as we do we MUST consider the culture,traditions & context of the passages that would be relevant only to that day....eg: If I braid my hair & wear long gold earrings I am not doing so to advertise or solicit as a prostitute....so even literally it is totally irrelevant & does not apply

Anyway,I do want to come back to go into more detail with FactSeeker,I like the Topic...its a great Thread    

Quote

Your experience with your conscience is important, and perhaps the spirit would do that generally with other people, too. However, I'm looking for hard rules I can lay down, which requires scripture.                                                       FactSeeker

The whole point in my reply was exactly that(sharp fellow that FactSeeker!)    I don't believe we are going to find "hard rules" within the Scriptures,I think it is a matter of Revelation as you get closer & nearer to our Lord......I think most immature Christians would simply go by 1 Timothy and just accept"modesty" by what they perceive that to mean & until you are no longer leaning on your own understanding you are going to hinder the deeper Wisdom & Understanding that the Holy Spirit Reveals to the Eyes of Understanding(Eternal Minded)......such as FactSeeker,he needs to know what is pleasing to God,not by his own standards or what is acceptable by society......this is growth,I know so many that have been Believers for 45 years & more and still have not grown much nor do they desire to,the flesh is strong......

Quote

Proverbs 3:5-6King James Version (KJV)

⁵ Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

⁶ In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

   We must keep our hearts & minds "teachable/receptive".....if this discussion leads us to "hard rules" I would be surprised,I don't think we have many of those because we don't live under "Law".......we are continually Receiving the Higher things of God......(or not,lol)

   Anyway,I can't stay,I keep losing my place(Computer issue) & before I lose this entire comment I will now hit "submit"     With love-in Christ,Kwik