Is drinking alcohol a sin?

[Running Gator]

37 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

You are comparing oranges with apples. 

The actions of the "drinker" causing another to stumble does NOT EQUAL your anger "weakness" .

 

 

So, it is possible to cause another to stumble, but only for items you choose.  That is a quiet the responsibility you have.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Additionally, I am not sure what getting a buzz, even means, and I do not know what would make that a sin.

Buzz is light headed ie not sober. Anything that is NOT sober is sin last I checked in with the LORD.

 

13 hours ago, Blueyedjewel said:

Is wine in the Bible Alcoholic? Certainly at least sometimes, even often it is, is it always, maybe not. Sugar is what becomes alcohol in the fermentation process. Without someway to sterilize, or refrigerate fruit juices (fruit contains fructose, which will ferment) it will turn to alcohol. Even fruit lying on the ground, becomes alcoholic without help. Monkeys and elephants, can get drunk off fallen fruit, so can people, and since there was no refrigeration, wine would become alcoholic in short order, in a climate such as Israel had/has. When the fermentation continues, the alcohol converts to vinegar, that is just how it works.

They used sulfur to keep from fermentation. They dug deep holes into the ground where it is cool to also preserve. They built cellars with thick stone walls. They dried it out  the grapes in the sun,smashed it up in cakes and sealed it in wax. Have you ever had dehydrated fruit? I dont get drunk on it.

There are many ways "how it works" Not all  words "wine" are rendered equal in the word. I explained that and I will go into much depth when I post a study on it.

 

12 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Those who have an actual interest, can read verses about wine making merry, and judge for themselves, if that is sin form those, clearly, alcohol can be a mood elevator. one can look at some of those verses here. Alcohol also, makes some people mean, that cannot be good.

Should we assume "making merry" means to get a buzz?  As I have said before, not all wine is equal in Gods word. There are many roots within many contexts.  1to3 posted many scriptures that are contrary to the drinking is okay rhetoric. Im glad that she did.

 

12 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Suppose though, for the sake of discussion, that you are correct, that one will get a buzz, unless one has built up a tolerance, what about that then? Suppose a believer, was a social drinker before coming to Christ, or had a glass of wine daily with a meal, as is common, especially in European countries. Now, having had this tolerance, would you think it would be okay for them, to have a small amount of alcohol if the amount they had, had no noticeable effects on them, or is that still a sin, to your mind or understanding? 

You mean continue on with their behavior that of which "was before" conversion?  

2 Corinth 5:17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away.Behold, the new has come! 

 

Isaiah 43:18
"Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.

 

Blessings  

[Running Gator]

6 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

You mean continue on with their behavior that of which "was before" conversion?  

2 Corinth 5:17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away.Behold, the new has come! 

 

Isaiah 43:18
"Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.

 

Blessings  

Before my conversion I ate pizza, after my conversion I still eat pizza. 

Is that wrong?

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Running Gator said:

So, it is possible to cause another to stumble, but only for items you choose.  That is a quiet the responsibility you have.

...,,,.........

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Running Gator said:

Before my conversion I ate pizza, after my conversion I still eat pizza. 

Is that wrong?

11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways. 

[TheMatrixHasU71]

On 8/9/2017 at 1:34 AM, ByTheSpirit said:

I'm not asking about getting drunk, but rather you go out with a friend(s) and want to have a drink to unwind or whatever.

 

Is having a drink the same as us sinning?

Even Jesus drank wine. There are plenty of injunctions in the bible against getting drunk, but not about drinking itself

[Running Gator]

13 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways. 

Is that yes or no for the pizza?

[Omegaman 3.0]

48 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

They used sulfur to keep from fermentation. They dug deep holes into the ground where it is cool to also preserve. They built cellars with thick stone walls. They dried it out  the grapes in the sun,smashed it up in cakes and sealed it in wax. Have you ever had dehydrated fruit? I dont get drunk on it.

Yes, sulfur works, it is an antibiotic, I imagine it would kill yeast. And yes I have had dried fruit, it has surfer in it. 

That wax trick, is probably pretty good. Europeans on ships, used to cross the Atlantic with chicken eggs not spoilging, by dipping them in wax. The crew of the Calypso research vessel, recovered wine from an old, sunken wooden ship, which was in bottles, corked and waxed, which was still good, so yeah, if you can keep oxygen out, you can prevent fermentation.

No, they did not dig holes to stop fermentation, but of course that could delay it, well not delay the start, but slow fermentation down. In a Mediterranean climate, the temperature in early April, will be probably about 5 degrees F cooler that the average temperature in a 24 hour period, at the surface, or about 57 degrees F. This is at 12 feet deep, after that, it does not get cooler, but is stable until you begin to see elevated temperatures due to deep geothermal heat. That is the coolest temperature of the year for ground temperature (it lags surface temperature changes.

In late October, the underground temperature peaks, typically being about 67 degrees at 12 feet, in that region. This is not the 85 degree temperature at which fermentation is the fastest, to be sure, but it is not low enough to prevent fermentation. Fermentation occurs above 50 degrees F, at least that what wine-makers say, but I have had fermentation in orange juice, in my refrigerator, at that is about 40 degrees F, I believe.

I only have an inkling of knowledge about the subterranean temperature gradients, because underground and earth sheltered housing, was a special interest of mine, when I was studying Architecture in college. Here in the desert where I live, I considered  burying clay pipes in the ground, in order to draw air through them to cool the house in summer, and warm it in winter. The theory is sound, but the benefit too small, to make if worthwhile. 

In any case, wine, in the Bible, was often fermented, or it would not make sense to refer frequently to drunkenness, so this topic of preservation might be interesting, it does not get around the fact, that wine contained alcohol, in sufficient concentration, to get Noah drunk, Lot drunk, and the apostles accused of being drunk.

There are statements like "Priests and prophets stagger from wine and wobble from too much liquor. They stagger
from too much liquor and become confused from too much wine", and "Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine" . . .

certainly  that is not saying: "addicted to much grape juice"! There is no need to try to say, wine was different. Maybe some of it was, but clearly much of it was not. There is no Biblical evidence to suggest, that the wine that Jesus produced by miracle, was non alcoholic, in fact,  it looks to me, like it probably was alcoholic.

Definitely, addiction is not allowed. Drunkenness is forbidden. Moderation, is called for. Soberness is required. These are all solid Biblically, but let's not try to make the Bible say things that it does not, as a means to support our convictions. Behave as you are convicted, and allow others, to live as they will, as guided by scripture, and the Holy Spirit, and of course, that should also mean, to be wary of stumbling others through selfish behavior. Let's not make others feel guilty, who have not done anything wrong by Biblical standards.

[other one]

Until Dr. Welsh discovered pasteurizing grape juice when you pick a grape one of three things happen within a short time.   One is you drink it,   two is you make wine out of it, and three is it turns itself into vinegar.    All wine in the bible was quickly drank, made into wine or left to make vinegar for medical purposes....  There are some things you can do to really slow down the fermentation process and make what is called new wine, but that has a lot of the sugar left in it and it will make you stupid drunk very quickly as the sugar takes the alcohol into the blood stream quickly.  Boons Farm wine would be todays example.

We used to make wine back in my teenage days before I married and had four of my best high school and College friends discover they were chemical dependent alcoholics....   While I still drink a beer or glass of wine with a meal now and then, I stopped social drinking (partying) because of what I saw it do to them.

 

In France before the Muslims came in almost everyone drinks with meals and they have very little alcoholism there.  Because people are taught to drink without overdoing from birth.

 

Just one last note before I go back away there is one place in the OT where it says not to drink any of the wine or the dregs of it, or whatever you made it in when it does certain things during the process.   Making extra bubbles and moving itself around.....    and that's because it has something like C. botulinum bacterium contaminating it and it will give you botulism and likely kill you if you drink much of it.    Back before we got antibiotics it didn't take much of it to be fatal.    Stuff tastes awful though I'm told.  

One of the reasons that important people had wine tasters...  LoL

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

No, they did not dig holes to stop fermentation,

The drinking-vessel was the Biblical "kos." The wine was kept in cellars, and from them was removed to storerooms called "hefteḳ," or "apoṭiḳ" (ἀποθήκη), a pantry or shelves in the wineshop. Bottles of wine from this pantry were exposed for sale in baskets in front of the counter ('Ab. Zarah ii. 7, 39b).

There were different kinds of wine. "Yayin" was the ordinary matured, fermented wine, "tirosh" was a new wine, and "shekar" was an old, powerful wine ("strong drink"). The red wine was the better and stronger (Ps. lxxv. 9 [A. V. 8]; Prov. xxiii. 31). Perhaps the wine of Helbon (Ezek. xxvii. 18) and the wine of Lebanon (Hos. xiv. 7) were white wines. The vines of Hebron were noted for their large clustersof grapes (Num. xiii. 23). Samaria was the center of vineyards (Jer. xxxi. 5; Micah i. 6), and the Ephraimites were heavy wine-drinkers (Isa. xxviii. 1). There were also "yayin ha-reḳaḥ" (spiced wine; Cant. viii. 2), "ashishah" (hardened sirup of grapes), "shemarim (wine-dregs), and "ḥomeẓ yayin" (vinegar). Some wines were mixed with poisonous substances ("yayin tar'elah"; Ps. lx. 5; comp. lxxv.9, "mesek" [mixture]). The "wine of the condemned" ("yen 'anushim") is wine paid as a forfeit (Amos ii. 8), and "wine of violence" (Prov. iv. 17) is wine obtained by illegal means.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14941-wine

11 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

In any case, wine, in the Bible, was often fermented,

Often it is not fermented. The fermented wine was not like the wine we have today.

 

 

It should be noted in passing, however, that the wine of the first century, though containing a degree of fermentation, did not have nearly the potency that modern wines possess. Note the following quote from Professor R. Laird Harris:

All the wine [of Bible times] was light wine, i.e., not fortified with extra alcohol. Concentrated alcohol was only known in the Middle Ages when the Arabs invented distillation (“alcohol” is an Arabic word) so what is now called liquor or strong drink (i.e., whiskey, gin, etc.) and the twenty per cent fortified wines were unknown in Bible times. Beer was brewed by various methods, but its alcoholic content was light. The strength of natural wines is limited by two factors. The percentage of alcohol will be half of the percentage of the sugar in the juice. And if the alcoholic content is much above 10 or 11 percent, the yeast cells are killed and fermentation ceases. Probably ancient wines were 7-10 per cent . . . . To avoid the sin of drunkenness, mingling of wine with water was practiced. This dilution was specified by the Rabbis in NT times for the wine customary at Passover (1980, 376).

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/224-was-the-fruit-of-the-vine-ferm

Fresh wine before fermenting was called "yayin mi-gat" (wine of the vat; Sanh. 70a). The ordinary wine was of the current vintage. The vintage of the previous year was called "yayin yashan" (old wine). The third year's vintage was "yayin meyushshan" (very old wine). Ordinary, fermented wine, accordingto Raba, must be strong enough to take one-third water, otherwise it is not to be regarded as wine (Shab. 77a). R. Joseph, who was blind, could tell by taste whether a wine was up to the standard of Raba ('Er. 54a).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14941-wine

 

28 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

but let's not try to make the Bible say things that it does not, as a means to support our convictions. Behave as you are convicted, and allow others, to live as they will, as guided by scripture, and the Holy Spirit, and of course, that should also mean, to be wary of stumbling others through selfish behavior. Let's not make others feel guilty, who have not done anything wrong by Biblical standards.

I am the one bringing evidence of my words.  I dont appreciate your saying that I am saying things the bible does not say.

I havent seen anything here but your opinion. 

I am guided by the Holy Spirit to debunk this liberty that some have taken as a right. I do believe that I posted that scripture earlier in this thread.

I take offence of your implying I am trying to make anyone feel guilty!   

In the first place, I dont have the power to make anyone feel guilty. The Holy Spirit chastens those who he loves which are his children. 

I will not strive with this conversation any longer. It is so unfair the things you have accused me of. It is also unfair to say I am misrepresenting Gods words when I am the one who has done the work to know the difference in various wines and meanings. You bear false witness against me twice!