Post-Trib, Post-Wrath Rapture = second coming

[BobRyan]

1 hour ago, Creed21 said:

Hey BobRyan,

Just wanted to encourage you on this discussion.  IMO, most Christians have the wrong idea of not being appointed to God's Wrath.  The context is missing, in that 

God's Wrath is for the sinners, children of disobedience as well as the proud and lofty. You also have God will pour out His wrath on His adversaries.

 

combine that context with verses like Zep 2:3 that tells us to seek righteousness and meekness during the Day of the Lord's anger/wrath and Joel 1 & 2 where it talks about priest and elders calling a sacred assembly during the Day of the Lord which is the final day of His Wrath, then you have the context for the verse that talks about not being appointed to God's Wrath.  In that we go thru His Wrath but are not appointed to it.  Just like Satan pours out His wrath during the Great Tribulation, atheist go 'thru' it but are not appointed to it... and yes the Great Tribulation is not Gods Wrath, God is not double minded He is not the author and overcomes of Tribulation, He is the overcome of Tribulation...

 

thanks again for posting the topic and don't loose heart

Thanks -- those are all good points my friend!

[Keras]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 7:08 AM, WilliamL said:

In Hebrews 12:18-28, Paul directly relates and compares the ancient gathering of Israel unto earthly Mount Sinai to the End Time gathering of the Church unto heavenly Mount Zion:

For you are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire [= Sinai], and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet [the shofar of Ex. 19:16, 19]…but you are come to [heavenly] Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn having been registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men having been made perfect, [and] to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant… Heb. 12:18-19, 22-24

Notice the direct contrast between 1) the earthly Mount Sinai at the assembling of carnal Israel on Earth, and 2) the heavenly Mount Zion at the assembling of the sanctified Church in heaven. (Paul makes the same contrast in Galatians 4:21-31.) This direct comparison between

– lower versus upper mountains;

– carnal (first) versus sanctifying (second/new) covenants;

– Old Covenant mediator Moses (Gal. 3:19) versus New Covenant mediator Jesus;

– first versus latter trumpets,

Your case above for the Church to be taken to heaven, isn't that all Christians will be raptured to heaven at all, because such an idea contradicts the Words of Jesus:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and extremely un biblical rapture theory.

Our citizenship is kept in heaven, but we never go there. Escapism is not an option and to hope and believe in that is wrong. Hebrews 12:8

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, Keras said:

Your case above for the Church to be taken to heaven, isn't that all Christians will be raptured to heaven at all, because such an idea contradicts the Words of Jesus:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.

No one has ascended into heaven, , but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man. "has is a qualifier, past tense"

John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....

John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....  Here Jesus was talking to the Jews as a whole, not future Believers.

John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....  Here Jesus is talking to the Pharisees.

Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and extremely un biblical rapture theory.

Our citizenship is kept in heaven, but we never go there. Escapism is not an option and to hope and believe in that is wrong. Hebrews 12:8

Yet John 14:2,3 - In My Fathers house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you, for I go to prepare for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

So here we see that Jesus is preparing a place for us in heaven, where He now abides.

My comments above in red.  Most of your comments are not for Believers.

So your comments are taken as mute, not for us Believers.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Keras]

2 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Yet John 14:2,3 - In My Fathers house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you, for I go to prepare for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

So here we see that Jesus is preparing a place for us in heaven, where He now abides.

My comments above in red.  Most of your comments are not for Believers.

So your comments are taken as mute, not for us Believers.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Thanks for your opinion. Which is all it is.  Interpreting the Words of Jesus to suit a doctrine is a serious matter. 

You use of John 14:2-3 as a rapture proof, just shows the sad lack of any real scriptural proof for that theory. It is plainly told to us in Revelation 21:1-2, that the city that those worthy will inhabit with Jesus and God, comes down from heaven after the Millennium. At no stage do we go to heaven; in the end, heaven comes down to us. 

[Montana Marv]

So in Scripture are you part of the Pharasee crowd Jesus is taking to or unbelieving Israel. For those are who Jesus is speaking to on your verses given. And yet you try to apply them for us.

Jesus says He is going to prepare a place for us in the Father s House which is in heaven. I take Him at his Word. There is a Harpozo.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Keras]

5 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

So in Scripture are you part of the Pharasee crowd Jesus is taking to or unbelieving Israel. For those are who Jesus is speaking to on your verses given. And yet you try to apply them for us.

Please explain how you differentiate what scripture applies to us today and what you think doesn't. 

Jesus was always talking to other groups, His teachings are for everyone. You are on a slippery slope of doctrinal error to say: this or that doesn't concern me, just because a particular teaching contradicts your beliefs. 

6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Jesus says He is going to prepare a place for us in the Father s House which is in heaven. I take Him at his Word. There is a Harpozo.

Yes, at Jesus' Return, He will send out His angels to gather those who remain to where He is; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:17

[Reinitin]

On 8/9/2017 at 7:10 AM, BobRyan said:

At the rapture "the dead in Christ rise first" 1 Thess 4 ... at the "first resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 which is part of the Rev 19-Rev 20:5 second coming event -- When Christ "comes again" to take all the saints to heaven "to My Father's house" as in John 14:1-3

 

It is after the tribulation.

How about Matt 24?

²⁰ But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. ²¹ For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. ^...

²⁹ “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

It is just ONE event - the second coming:

John 14:1  “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. ² In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. ³ If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Christ does not say "I will come again... and again... and again..."

 

It is sudden and surprising

Matt 24 ³⁸ For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, ³⁹ and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Thess 5: . ² For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. ³ For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. ⁴ But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Thess 1: ⁶ For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, ⁷ and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, ⁸ dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. ⁹ These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction

Thess 2? doesn't it say dont believe people that tell you Christ has already come because the lawless one the anti-christ will be revealed first?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

Thess 2? doesn't it say dont believe people that tell you Christ has already come because the lawless one the anti-christ will be revealed first?

CONTEXT! 

[Reinitin]

6 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

CONTEXT! 

you have heard rumors Christ has already come?

[Reinitin]

10 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

CONTEXT! 

lol 2 thess you should read the letter cause verse doctrins are con jobs. But chapter 2 is concerning the day of the Lord and his gathering us unto him.