Rapture thoughts

[Retrobyter]

12 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

LOL Too funny! "Correct translation" not even close.

- Original: ἐκφεύγω
- Transliteration: Ekpheugo
- Phonetic: ek-fyoo'-go
- Definition:   
1.  to flee out of, flee away   
a.  to seek safety in flight  
b.  to escape  

Another comedian! From what are you going to escape... to the Kingdom of God, v.31.

Shalom, Abdicate.

What makes you think that the "Kingdom of God" means "Heaven?"

[Keras]

1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

LOL Too funny! "Correct translation" not even close.

I pointed out that the interpretation of escape by removal conflicts with the previous verse. You didn't address that. 

Your belief of a rapture to heaven, is false and many Bible prophesies say the Lord will protect His own on the Day He destroys His enemies. 

Heaven is where God lives, we humans never go there and after the GWT Judgement, God and therefore heaven, come down to earth, Revelation 21:1-8

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Abdicate said:

All the other verses from the scriptures. 

Shalom, Abdicate.

Excuse me? Not likely. The Scriptures tell us about a LITERAL Kingdom - God's Kingdom - that began with the children of Israel coming out of Egypt. David acknowledged that God was his King and that he, David, was a custodian for GOD'S Kingdom. It was GOD HIMSELF who made David his people's king, made David's dynasty last forever, predicted that David's seed would be the final, eternal King, and linked David's sons Shlomoh and Natan to the Messiah Yeshua`.

Furthermore, God will make sure that Yeshua` fulfills the prophecies of Israel being the home of the Great King! His Kingdom is NOT "off-world" in some fictitious, ethereal place called "Heaven." The word "heaven" (Hebrew: shaamayim; Greek: ouranos) simply means "the sky." 

It would be wise to use the word as Yeshua` used the word, not as the P'rushiym (Pharisees) did:

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ouranos).
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ouranos) is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: ouranos); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

As far as the third heaven is concerned, it's best to use PETER'S "third heaven" rather than Scofield's! For me, the first time I was introduced to the concept of the "third heaven, God's abode" being somewhere beyond the "second heaven of stars," was in the center margin of page 1238 (located where 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is found). In the old Scofield Reference Bible (KJV); the Reverend Dr. C. I. Scofield states flatly (and without a Bible reference) that the first heaven is “of clouds,” the second heaven is “of stars,” and the third heaven is “God’s abode.”

Here's how PETER describes the three heavens:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (the first heaven) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (the FLOOD)
7 But (the second heaven) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (the FIRE)
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (the third heaven) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

It's not the "third heaven" in distance from earth; it's the "third heaven," the "third sky," in TIME!

We don't "go to heaven"; "heaven" - or rather, the "New Jerusalem" - comes to US!

Revelation 21:1-4
1 And I saw a new heaven (a new sky) and a new earth: for the first heaven (the first sky) and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (a loud voice out of the sky) saying, Behold, the tabernacle (tent) of God is with men, and he will dwell (camp) with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

All the traditional descriptions for "Heaven" are the descriptions of the NEW JERUSALEM!

Revelation 21:10-22:5
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (out of the sky) from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

The "pearly gates," the "streets of gold," the "river of life," the "tree of life," and the "throne of God and of the Lamb" are all within this CITY, a literal, PHYSICAL city, the New Jerusalem, not in some place called "Heaven!" And, this literal, physical city will land upon the New Earth!

[Justin Adams]

Hi and peace. It occurred to me that sometimes, cross purpose is accidental due to translation anomalies.
Recently I was reading Josephus; he is adamant that the commercial, local and educational language at the time of Yeshua was Aramaic. Even Josephus was frustrated with Greek (as he honestly notes in his journals).

Aramaic is extremely complex with many idioms and plays on words, that have no Greek equivalents. Or are poorly transliterated - sometimes with life and death consequences. (see example '1' below)

"Idioms appear in many books, and the Bible is no exception. Have you ever heard someone say “the Bible doesn’t mean that literally”? They are referring to a possible idiom. Now we have a problem for Greek primacy (the belief that the New Testament was written in Greek). The New Testament is lacking in Greek idioms and is filled with Aramaic idioms! Sometimes the idioms are translated literally, and sometimes, they are translated idiomatically. In fact, many contradictions are caused in the Greek New Testament, by literal translation of the Aramaic idioms. When the original Aramaic New Testament was translated into Greek, the translators should have given explanations of the Aramaic idioms. This would have saved lots of headaches (and in some cases, people’s lives) over alleged contradictions (an understanding of the original Aramaic New Testament, and it’s many idioms, are invaluable in Christian apologetics) in the New Testament."

[http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/Idioms.pdf]

Here is an example:

"1. Pick up snakes – Mark 16:18 I chose this as the first example, as it deals with a literal life and death issue. The KJV says: “They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” “They translated many Eastern idioms and metaphors literally, not knowing their true meaning. For instance, ‘You shall handle snakes.’ They did not know that the word ‘snake’ refers to ‘an enemy.”’ – Dr. George Mamishisho Lamsa A better reading for that section of the verse would be “they will handle their enemies”. This mistranslation has even cost the lives of many people. George Went Hensley, a former pastor of the Church of God, formed one such Pentecostal group, who drank poison and exposed themselves to poisonous snakes. He died of snakebite, as have many others."

[Heleadethme]

2 Thessalonians 2 says very clearly not to be deceived because the return of the Lord and being caught up with Him won't happen until after the antichrist is revealed.  Read Matthew 24 warning us to flee when the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place.......for then shall be tribulation such as we have never seen.  Son of perdition standing in the holy place declaring himself to be God and causing all to worship him as God.....that sure seems like an abomination to me and the revealing of his true nature and intent after he comes in peaceably.   And then begins a great persecution of all who refuse to worship him as messiah/christ.  Don't anyone be confused about that.....antichrist comes before Christ......write it on your hand, tape it to your bathroom mirror, remember it!

And Jesus saying how many shall be offended and betray one another, love growing cold........that is even easy to see on forums, how many are so easily offended and are sharp tongued, biting and devouring one another.  Can't help but wonder sometimes, where is our humility, where love....if we are to even suffer for His name and still love our enemies, but can't even bear with a little discussion and disagreeing over some issues among one another without getting offended and in a huff, then that just looks like another sign being fulfilled that we are in the last days, just as Jesus foretold.  

[ravindran]

On 9/23/2017 at 11:54 PM, bornagain2011 said:

I've had some thoughts for a while,

When the rapture happens do you think the people left behind will know what has happened? Will they see us up in the clouds? I was thinking that at that moment there might be a huge earthquake and an EMP that knocks out everything due to the huge amount of energy from the dead being raised and all of us being changed.

Also I imagine us being gathered together above Jerusalem with Jesus. 

What do you guys think? Anyone have any thoughts about the details of the rapture?

I think the rapture would be fast, extremely fast. Rapture itself means taken forcefully. We would be taken up so fast that it would happen within blink of an eye. I don't think unbelievers would even realize that something happen. All they would see would be after effect of rapture, which would be missing people. If this is something the unbelievers witness, then there is no reason for them to deny Christ anymore. Bible does not talk about people coming to Christ after rapture. In fact, the whole earth would be filled with unbelievers. Tribulation would bring mostly Jews back to Christ. Based on these points, I don't think unbelievers would witness rapture unfolding.

[ravindran]

And probably world would think some rogue nation has attacked them or aliens have done something or may be they would even say Climate change caused this!! I think people can easily come up with alternate reasons for rapture. That's what would happen. And antichrist will lead that deception

[Justin Adams]

I'm probably not correct in my choice of quotes. The subject matter may be open for question along with the author(s).

         That was not my point at all.  Try to fathom what my point is before you destroy my ideas willy-nilly!

If you read what I actually said, you will see that I was offering the view, that since much of the 'new testament' was spoken and written in Aramaic (the commercial, legal and educational language of the day), and that possibly the (difficult) Greek translations might benefit from another look.

Perhaps a direct translation from Aramaic into English would benefit us all.
Complete with Aramaic notation of colloquial referenced importance.

Otherwise we have mostly, Aramaic into Greek into (Latin?) into English (some of it old English).

Josephus, no mean scholar and historian, had a hard time with Greek. He insisted that Yeshua and most of His disciples spoke and understood Aramaic as it was THE language of their day.

[Heleadethme]

2 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

2 Thessalonians 2 says very clearly not to be deceived because the return of the Lord and being caught up with Him won't happen until after the antichrist is revealed.  Read Matthew 24 warning us to flee when the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place.......for then shall be tribulation such as we have never seen.  Son of perdition standing in the holy place declaring himself to be God and causing all to worship him as God.....that sure seems like an abomination to me and the revealing of his true nature and intent after he comes in peaceably.   And then begins a great persecution of all who refuse to worship him as messiah/christ.  Don't anyone be confused about that.....antichrist comes before Christ......write it on your hand, tape it to your bathroom mirror, remember it!

And Jesus saying how many shall be offended and betray one another, love growing cold........that is even easy to see on forums, how many are so easily offended and are sharp tongued, biting and devouring one another.  Can't help but wonder sometimes, where is our humility, where love....if we are to even suffer for His name and still love our enemies, but can't even bear with a little discussion and disagreeing over some issues among one another without getting offended and in a huff, then that just looks like another sign being fulfilled that we are in the last days, just as Jesus foretold.  

The Lord is also gracious to make this clear in Matthew 24......that immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, the sign of the Son of man will appear, and they shall see the Son of man coming..... and the great sound of a trumpet and the elect will be gathered together from the four winds.  AFTER the tribulation.  So its very important to understand this in order to be prepared to resist antichrist and be ready for persecution.  And from reading v. 15-22 it is indicated that tribulation begins when antichrist is revealed and stands in the holy place demanding to be worshiped and believers have to flee.  "For THEN shall be great tribulation......"

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Abdicate said:

Rabbit trail much?

Since none of you nay sayers have yet to answer my simple question, I pose it to you too. What word do you choose to call the event that Paul describes here?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

What word for this event?

Shalom, Abdicate.

I would call it what the Greek names it: harpazoo (where the "oo" is an omega). "Rapture" is okay, except for what the word IMPLIES. It is a "rapture"; that is, a "being caught away," but the word as used today in many circles is usually implying the additional words "to heaven," and that's wrong.

The word "harpazoo" is defined thus:

NT:726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

As it is interpreted in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, its translation is a bit misleading. The word "up" is not ANYWHERE in the Greek text! The only reason why it was SUPPLIED by the translator is because of the words "in the clouds" and "in the air." In the KJV, the line "catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)" is shorthand for "catch, catch away, catch up, pluck, pull, take, and take by force" in the present tense and may also be used in other tenses of each, as well. Therefore, since "caught" is the past tense of "catch," "caught up" is included in "catch up." However, in my opinion, it would be better to translate it without the "up." "Seized" would be fine; "caught away" would be acceptable; and even "taken" would be preferable to "caught up."

No "rabbit trails," though; I just like to define my terms before using them. Many don't do that and start arguments because they lack a basis for communication.

See, the foundation for what I was talking about is that "Heaven" doesn't exist as the "third heaven - God's abode." It simply means "the sky" and when given the adjective "third," means the "third sky" SEQUENTIALLY!

Sky 1 = Before the Flood
Sky 2 = After the Flood and before the Fire
Sky 3 = After the Fire.