Five Points

[Neighbor]

Hi all,

 Thank you for keeping the opening responses very civil in tone. The subject can make some people very "testy", so it is appreciated. Thanks again.

As a matter of my personal history: Early on in the process of coming to the faith of Jesus, like most individuals, I  became aware of the Holy Spirit's working in my life and His working upon me too. Didn't know there is a Holy Spirit, but became aware of His workings.  

When the Holy Spirit revealed Himself and challenged me to decide on  Jesus  right then with  no more "clever" debates "of diversion" coming from me, I was stuck by  the awesome tone of authority that I recognized in that demand. -Make up my mind now! I had no more time.

And I became born again.  Done!  I rapidly went to Jesus' church, the Independent Baptist Church near me that the Pentecostal counselors at a David  Mainse rally told me was the only  "Bible teaching " church near me.

They said the doctrines are different than theirs, as they are pentecostal and the church is baptist- (ah okay whatever),  but that  it is more important that I learn the Bible. ( Okay)  So go there!  And by the way, I should expect an attack from Satan almost immediately, (Yeah sure okay).

 But you know, that attack came before I got out the door! My wife was so surprised by my jumping up out of my theater seat like an idiot on fire, and running down an aisle at that rally. She got mad that I had not told her I wanted to  go there to do that. Well I hadn't, mostly I wanted to see the renovated Tampa Theater was all, and this was a free event! I am a little cheap, well frugal.  If I  can see the place free then we might as well go to the free event there. So what if it is a David Mainse rally for Jesus?  

Boy was she steaming mad though! Started yelling at me right in the lobby on the way out. She of the kindest nature, most generous,  giving, loving, and soft voiced,- was mad! But; when she calmed down, we both went to that Independent Baptist church, and were soon baptised by immersion in water and became members there.

I went through the Bible for five years at that Baptist church. Learned  lots of "JKV" Bible. I reached out Tuesday nights going door to door for Jesus, seeing each past Sunday's visitors to the church. I  worked the Super Sixty ministry  for seniors each  Friday where there were some 1100 gezers attending each week. I  did lights for music programs on Saturdays, went on a short missioon's trip. I was busy at my faith in Jesus. Had no clue about five points, one way or another!

I heard a lot about "Freewill", and saving people, and personally said to many  on Tueday nights in their homes a lot about the need to be coming to Jesus. Also heard a lot of conversations amongst the deacons about who might be in charge of what  come the Millennium, mostly in a joking way.

Then I heard Dr. E.V. Hill at our own Mission's week rally and fund raiser. E.V.Hill of LosAngeles CA. Next thing I know I am propelled to San Pedro, Ca ( Los Angeles)  again, and the Covenant Church  on the hill above San Pedro is seeking  some interested people to go into South Central Los Angeles to work with Dr Hill, E. V. Hill.

 Plus this church that I became part of had a huge issue to overcome, a need for parking or face bankruptcy- and the job I had gained was next door to the church, and I now newly of authority to allow use of some twenty acres of  company land for their parking- free to them. Wow, how weird that seemed.

I continued there for two years, exercising my "freewill", until I was faced with finding out why I could never get my Florida house sold. I was still  stuck with that mortgage payment each month while trying to live at Los Angeles and pay family living prices there too. Well an odd opportunity to go to Tampa came up, a business convention, a Cemeterian Business convention how weird is that? And my company wanted me to attend.

While there of course I also looked at my house, and found why  it had not sold. My realtor was seriously delinquent in her duties and had the listing totally wrong, even in the wrong city!  While in the driveway, someone came up and asked if they could lease it. I said "yes sirrie!" and I leased it. While touching up the house, someone else came up and said; Are you the owner? I have been trying to buy this house for over six months, but the realtor is nuts. She never shows up, never gives me proper information.  I said, sorry I just leased it out. Oh that hurt me to say! And made the person really upset too.

And then it happened, our sold on terms Florida business interest came back to haunt me, just as my counterpart  at my California job developed a terminal illness and died inside of six weeks time. This was a very close friend of 15 years, an honorable professional work partner and friend. I was shaken! Plus I  had a new and severe problem at Florida involving some two million dollars in family business interests. I had to return to Florida to try to save that, for the family and for myself. And guess, what I still owned a house there, because no matter it wouldn't  sell!

So  I moved back to my  home at my "freewill". Later I joined another church ( That Baptist Church i first went to  having collapsed under the weigh of a pastor's personal scandal) and I  complained about a leak in the roof, only to find out  they needed a person in charge of the nine acres of facilities. So I took that task on for 14 years until just this present fall season. All at my own "freewill".  Or is it? And therein is the dilemma for me. I never see the lead of God looking forward. I never do; but I see it in such great detail looking back over what has happened!

I have come to know that  my freewill is not all that free. I really had no sane choice when the Holy Spirit called. I had no personal choice in attending my own first church that Jesus had established in my town for my benefit. I have had no  real choice in going back to Los Angeles for I was depressed, seeing visions all day of a church at the hill above San Pedro; one that had not even existed when I was there before. Plus  I had not known I would benefit from a job at a church here later at Florida when I took it to serve their need. I had no idea I would need the grand health insurance as example, that  paid the humongous cost of my wife's fatal illness. Plus I had such an incredible support team that we both needed all from that church during that awful time. 

I had no idea I would get to do, be, or have- well anything and everything that has happened  around me, in my life. None of it has been at my own freewill, none of it would have been my choice, it all just "happened",   happened randomly, or it was the absolute will of God that it be so. It is too detailed to be random. I sure didn't plan  nor select a bit of it. I settle for stating that my life has not been of my own doing, though I am totally responsible for it!

And so, I now claim to be one of the world's very few,  if not the world's only "Freewill- Calvinist". For all that is of my freewill is only what God has foreknown and predestined for me a saint in Christ Jesus who has heard the call  the command by the Holy Spirit for all the saints to go into all the world with the gospel of Jesus, declaring it along with the other saints in Christ so that many may be presented as being mature in the Lord Jesus.  It is all of God and nothing at all of me. Including the rather unusual manner and under the circumstances in which I met my present life mate, my spouse, on the internet on a Christian message board from half way across the country. Yep my freewill and my free choice, or is it? Something seems to trump my freewill and guides me. I do think it to be the foreknowledge and the predestination of those by God that is mentioned in the Bible, as part of God's word to us.

If it were not because of the demand of the Spirit I would have none of it- this born again Christian experience. It would not have been my choice, least not my first choice, nor second, nor third, as an unsaved man. No way did I forsee ever wanting that!

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Because so many get rather  upset, and it seems to me, often without ever having done any real in depth study of the history of the debate and the conflictions between Arminians and Calvinists, with  neither group having a  beginning with either man, I have chosen to paraphrase the five points as an enticement toward doing personal studies, more than as an argument for either. 

I doubt that many a person has been saved by a presentation of either list of the five points of contention  presented  at the Dort Conference. Nor do they care when they are faced with  "coming to Jesus".  All who are saved, born again, are first just awestruck by the power of Holy  God, without hardly even realizing there is so much as a Holy Spirit,and while still  thinking, Trinity? Why that is the name of  that church down the street isn't it?

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Long tale of recounting life to date to simply say;  lets try to make salvation in Christ Jesus our mutual message; and not make the Dort Convention contentions our banner, nor our pride. Christians need unite in one purpose, not divide as various scribes and pharisees did and scholars have so often done. We need not, and  cannot, miss the light of the gospel of Jesus for the looking at the bushel basket's weave.

Let us all be light, light not hidden under anything at all. Lets be bold in Christ, embracing brothers and sisters in the Lord Jesus. Doing so,  before an unbelieving  world, and saving our debates for good purposed study time of the word, more than for our own pride's pronouncement of one's own cognitive dissonance, the action and act of accepting only that which further agrees with what we already think, while rejecting all that may not agree with our own conclusions that were sold to us by others, and not by our own prayerful study of the word of God.

Lets study and pray and think together welcoming each other's studied thoughts and receiving the benefit of each other's encouragement and prayer.

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May God bless all the saints in Christ Jesus! May we all be about the privileged duty and business of sharing fellowship with each other, while declaring the gospel to the world as commanded.

Sorry for the very long post. if I were more talented or gifted a writer I could winnow it down to a very few words and then declare at the heart of it all  is the message, -  Jesus Saves!

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Neighbor

[Sower]

9 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Sorry for the very long post. if I were more talented or gifted a writer I could winnow it down to a very few words and then declare at the heart of it all  is the message, -  Jesus Saves!

I do really enjoy hearing someones testimony. Thank you for giving yours Neighbor. I was moved.

I will endeavor to abide by the request you have stated in your above post, and not lose a civil tone while expressing myself.
What comes first, the chicken, or the egg?  I do not know.  I do not care.  I was a believer for about thirty years before I even learned what a Calvinist was. So I studied it  for two years when two members in church began to push it. What I learned. It causes great division, and the enemy loves it. I have lost fellowship with longtime friends because of it. I have seen on this forum what it can do. And all I hear from my old Calvinist  friends is more sermons emailed to me about Calvinism, even when I requested not to do so. So much time lost. To what end? Been debated for centuries. I could care less. When I saw your post, "Five Points", my spirit was alarmed, to tread cautiously. I'm a simple Christian. I know more scripture than what I put to use already, without burdening myself with the endless debate, the chicken or the egg. I personally do not know ONE PERSON who was saved because of Calvinism or Arminianism teaching.
This always reminds me of a story I tell to people, to create a desire for spreading the word. When I was lost, drowning in the sea of despair, a little row boat came close and threw out a life preserver and hollered: "reach out and grab it, and be saved" I did. I jumped in the boat, and we rowed to the huge mother ship (church). Got dry clothes, and went to the big meeting at that time, with all hands. The debate was " should we buy Evinrude out board motors for efficiency, or Mercury's for speed" I jumped up and hollered  "Who cares, just gimme a row boat and a couple of oars, I know there were more lost and drowning people where I was found.
The chicken or egg first don't matter. I eat em both. (the egg first, in the morning, the chicken last in the evening....) And Neighbor, you did have a choice in your testimony, just like we all do every day, every moment. To trust the Lord or our own understanding, to sin or obey. Some seed landed on soil and sprouted, but shriveled up by the cares of the world. Some on good ground, like you Neighbor, and grew up to produce much fruit. This glorifies God, much fruit. Your choice, to glorify (abiding).  Can't work without having the option to choose, or as the calvinist say, freewillers. That would be forced labor, and not out of love. A simple opinion, hope I stayed in bounds.
 

2Ti_1:12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

[Neighbor]

Wow you read all that  I typed? ! Well thank you.

I agree almost a hundred percent with you. 

Actually, what I agree with is my understanding from the Bible.  You seem pretty close to that, close enough for Christian work as a bondservant.

What I have found for myself is I could not with my freewill beat God. He holds trumps I do not. And so my freewill plays out to His winning advantage every time. He runs the table. He easily plays chess six moves ahead while  I can only think three ahead.  I am out foxed and outwitted. I found out that I will have to be three steps the other side of sanity to reject the specific call of the Holy Spirit to repent and turn to God receiving salvation and a lifetime course in my sanctification.

I can't champion the freewillers demand that  they can go about saving others, and that God really does need their co-operation; nor can I accept what I call the  hyper-Calvinist's position that all is fixed just because God foreknew and predestined all those He has known and predestined from the beginning.

We already have five points, TULIP, freewill vs predestination threads on the board. So I figured I'd lift the summary I did on another board long ago. Just as a guide, of what the points are and what conclusions each of the camps tend to reach about them. Most Christians I suspect never ever read anything on their own about it and instead just follow in parroting the stance of their church, their pastor, and or their denomination.

For years on that other board I had a dear sister in Christ that would lambast into me, call me all sorts of names from demon to  well most any derogatory name she could come up with at any moment that was not banned. Yet we also fellowshipped on a thread  I made for that purpose. Go figure- people get all emotional, when we could instead borrow from the example of  God and the word expressed through Paul to allow each other our quirks of understanding and still share our common joy in Chrost Jesus.

What my summary is intended for is to  reveal that there are books on the subject that do more than accuse the opposing  camps of thought as being heretics and false teachers and demon possessed individuals  

 

I did go out every Tuesday night with one other "nun"  to visit the visitors to  the church. We sought to save them all if they were not saved. We prayed before out each Tuesday  for two years. Finally my partner "nun" stopped the car as we were leaving the church lot and said I need to pray please in me. He prayed; Lord we have been  going out for two years to three families a night, and we have never ever saved  one person that I know of. Tonight Lord  I would like to see someone that becomes saved. I know we cannot do it, will You though?

And the first person  was repentent and professed his faith in Jesus. So did the second. We thought wow! The third did not become saved- he was  a bit of a distance away in a community of Holiday. We drove there anyway. He told us, I have been saved most of my adult life. I just retired as a commercial bus driver and am looking for a good church and some service to do.

We looked at each other. Bingo! Sir we have a new need for a bus driver to drive the pusher bus to pick up the seniors at Holiday to bring them to church on Fridays, would that be you? He started driving the bus.

So we were two out of three and of use to a third, once we stopped trying to be the saving agent of God, and instead became the witnesses with testimony of God, and let the Holy Spirit do the work of His agency! We could do that as either an Arminianist or a Calvinist, or just as bond-servants saved by grace ignorant of either camp of thought.

It didn't seem to matter to  God long as we weren't seeking His Glory for ourselves.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Neighbor

[Sower]

36 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Actually, what I agree with is my understanding from the Bible.  You seem pretty close to that, close enough for Christian work as a bondservant.

What I have found for myself is I could not with my freewill beat God. He holds trumps I do not. And so my freewill plays out to His winning advantage every time. He runs the table. He easily plays chess six moves ahead while  I can only think three ahead.  I am out foxed and outwitted. I found out that I will have to be three steps the other side of sanity to reject the specific call of the Holy Spirit to repent and turn to God receiving salvation and a lifetime course in my sanctification.

So, after grading my paper, what? a B-          I do not think I will ever again debate this fruitless topic. When you abide, as a branch in the true vine, you produce fruit. The Father, the vine tender, prunes you, (cuts off unnecessary vine(less Neighbor, more fruit) )so that you produce much fruit. He loves us, and will prune, chastise, rebuke, draw, console, whatever necessary to hopefully follow His will. But, He will not force anybody, as you notice, the branches that do not produce fruit, He cuts off. (Not a salvation issue) 
Pro 3:5,6  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.  In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Again, He directs us, not forces us. He allows us to make mistakes, or we would never sin. (Think of all the apostles)  Or king David.  It's pretty obvious God did not force him in his actions, as he could choose, and you know he choose to murder and fornicate. Yet God said David was a man after God's own heart. That simply could not be possible if David had no free will. And I also have a few stories that show the hand of God in my life, a loving God, doing whatever He could, within the boundaries/limitations He set for Himself, to direct my path, also.  I still love you Neighbor, even if you are an Armenian/Calvinist Hybrid....................... 
Iron sharpens iron, even old rusty iron.

[Guest shiloh357]

18 hours ago, Neighbor said:

It takes more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ, 
it requires regeneration a new Spirit given live and nature.
 

Where does the Bible say that a sinner has to be regenerated in order to be able to respond to the Gospel?

Quote

God's choice of certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world is solely by His own sovereign will.

Where does the Bible claim that God chose certain individuals for Salvation?

Quote

The redeeming work by Jesus was intended to save the elect only. It secured salvation for them.
"His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners" 

Where is that found in the Bible?

[missmuffet]

18 hours ago, angels4u said:

No points for you at all? Did you do the test!

No points for me.

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

Where does the Bible say that a sinner has to be regenerated in order to be able to respond to the Gospel?

Where does the Bible claim that God chose certain individuals for Salvation?

Where is that found in the Bible?

Good questions

[angels4u]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

No points for me.

Ones saved always saved ,isn't that one?

[missmuffet]

11 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Ones saved always saved ,isn't that one?

I did not think that OSAS had anything to do with Calvinism. But I could be wrong.

[Sower]

31 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

44 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Ones saved always saved ,isn't that one?

I did not think that OSAS had anything to do with Calvinism. But I could be wrong.

 

21 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Five points of Calvinism

Point 5. summarized Perserverance of the Saints

All the chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit, are saved eternally by the power of God and thus persevere to the end.