convert or disciple?

[Reinitin]

I really like this.

What is our mission? What is our position?

I recently read an article that couldn’t pertain more to my position here at the church. It states, “The most interesting thing about the Great Commission is that it does not command us to make converts of Christianity. Instead, we are to make disciples of Jesus.

The difference between convert making and disciple making is crucial. Converts change religions. Disciples change masters. Converts follow a system. Disciples follow a Person. Converts build Christendom. Disciples build the Kingdom of God. Converts embrace rituals. Disciples embrace a way of life. Converts love the command to ‘baptize them’ in the Great Commission, but that is all. Disciples baptize others but only in context of ‘teaching them to observe all that I commanded you.’ Converts love conversion. Disciples love transformation.” -JS Shaw

[Aimes]

I really really like this! Thanks for sharing!  

[Robert William]

2 hours ago, Yowm said:

Making disciples has been given to man,

making converts is God's job...

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:12-13)
 

Yowm, do you realize that verse blows free will out of the water.

[OneLight]

37 minutes ago, Robert William said:

Yowm, do you realize that verse blows free will out of the water.

On the surface it may seem so, but since scripture does back up scripture, we should also consider Romans 8:29-30

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

What is it that you think God foreknew?  I believe He foreknew who would accept His Son's plan for salvation and accepted the free gift of life.  God is not a puppet master, sitting in heaven pulling strings, forcing most to live eternally without Him in the lake of fire, and the rest, albeit a smaller number, living with Him through eternity.  He gave us the ability to make choices, which is free will.

[Robert William]

27 minutes ago, OneLight said:

On the surface it may seem so, but since scripture does back up scripture, we should also consider Romans 8:29-30

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

What is it that you think God foreknew?  I believe He foreknew who would accept His Son's plan for salvation and accepted the free gift of life.  God is not a puppet master, sitting in heaven pulling strings, forcing most to live eternally without Him in the lake of fire, and the rest, albeit a smaller number, living with Him through eternity.  He gave us the ability to make choices, which is free will.

Scripture says "nor the will of the flesh" but you say mans so-called free will can embrace the gospel.

 

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:12-13)

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9  not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Robert William]

2 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I don't think that is the topic at hand.

Yes, it is related.

[Fidei Defensor]

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Robert William said:

Scripture says "nor the will of the flesh" but you say mans so-called free will can embrace the gospel.

 

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:12-13)

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9  not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

I have a gift for you. I reach out to give it to you.  It is in my hand.  All you need to do is reach out to accept it from me.  Same thing when it come to salvation.  God has a gift for you.  His Son died in your place.  He is reaching out to give it to you.  If you don;t reach out and take it, it is not yours.  You see, we have a relationship with God.  In a relationship, there is always two or more doing their part.  His part was to make a way.  Ours is to accept the way.  If we don;t accept the gift, it is not ours.

 

Let's break Ephesians 2:8-9 down.

¹For by grace you have been saved through faith, ²and that not of yourselves; ³it is the gift of God, ⁴not of works, lest anyone should boast.

1. Gods grace toward us, the sacrifice of Jesus in our place, is what He put in place so we had a way to enter from death to life.  It is through faith that we believe this is true.

2. We can never ever do enough to make ourselves good enough to be accepted by God.

3. God freely gave His only begotten Son as a sacrifice of our sins.  Only His blood can cover our sinfulness.  This is His gift toward His creation.

4. Like #2, there is nothing we can do to cover our sins.  Yet, we do have to believe through faith and accept the work Jesus did for us.

If we did not have the ability to chose Christ, then those who are saved are no more than puppets.  1 Corinthians 13:4-8a tells us what true love is about.

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.  Love never fails.

Read these words carefully and think about each detail.  His love toward us has to be accepted by us and is never forced upon us, or it would not by the agape love scripture speaks of.  We have a choice so God can spend eternity with only those who love Him back.  He could of make us to love Him perfectly, but that would not be the love He deserves.

[Fidei Defensor]

6 hours ago, Reinitin said:

I really like this.

What is our mission? What is our position?

I recently read an article that couldn’t pertain more to my position here at the church. It states, “The most interesting thing about the Great Commission is that it does not command us to make converts of Christianity. Instead, we are to make disciples of Jesus.

The difference between convert making and disciple making is crucial. Converts change religions. Disciples change masters. Converts follow a system. Disciples follow a Person. Converts build Christendom. Disciples build the Kingdom of God. Converts embrace rituals. Disciples embrace a way of life. Converts love the command to ‘baptize them’ in the Great Commission, but that is all. Disciples baptize others but only in context of ‘teaching them to observe all that I commanded you.’ Converts love conversion. Disciples love transformation.” -JS Shaw

Amen. Discipleship was crucial. The Apostle Paul didn't just convert Timothy, he made him a disciple and then Timothy grew into an apostle. Discipleship is missed in Americano churches, which focus on making converts and cashing in on the new converts (literally $$$). We were called by Christ not to just share the Gospel and leave them alone without any further instruction, guidance, and help. It was suppose to be relational-teaching, a person is converted and the Evangelist then disciples that person and welcomes them into their home, coffee shop, and more; discipleship is a family of disciples of Christ, a nucleus of a breathing and living church, but instead it has become the stadium, tent revival, and en masse preaching of the evangelion, but not accountability afterwards. The Apostles Peter, Paul, James, and John all followed up on churches they established, encouraging, correcting, and checking in on those disciples who had their own apostle on site. This was discipleship by letters, and we do it today via this forum, blogs, social media, emails, texts, and beyond. 

Thank you for bringing this up Reintin. 

[Robert William]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

I have a gift for you. I reach out to give it to you.  It is in my hand.  All you need to do is reach out to accept it from me.  Same thing when it come to salvation.  God has a gift for you.  His Son died in your place.  He is reaching out to give it to you.  If you don;t reach out and take it, it is not yours.  You see, we have a relationship with God.  In a relationship, there is always two or more doing their part.  His part was to make a way.  Ours is to accept the way.  If we don;t accept the gift, it is not ours.

 

Let's break Ephesians 2:8-9 down.

¹For by grace you have been saved through faith, ²and that not of yourselves; ³it is the gift of God, ⁴not of works, lest anyone should boast.

1. Gods grace toward us, the sacrifice of Jesus in our place, is what He put in place so we had a way to enter from death to life.  It is through faith that we believe this is true.

2. We can never ever do enough to make ourselves good enough to be accepted by God.

3. God freely gave His only begotten Son as a sacrifice of our sins.  Only His blood can cover our sinfulness.  This is His gift toward His creation.

4. Like #2, there is nothing we can do to cover our sins.  Yet, we do have to believe through faith and accept the work Jesus did for us.

If we did not have the ability to chose Christ, then those who are saved are no more than puppets.  1 Corinthians 13:4-8a tells us what true love is about.

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.  Love never fails.

Read these words carefully and think about each detail.  His love toward us has to be accepted by us and is never forced upon us, or it would not by the agape love scripture speaks of.  We have a choice so God can spend eternity with only those who love Him back.  He could of make us to love Him perfectly, but that would not be the love He deserves.

Jesus did not Atone for ALL humans, scripture does NOT teach universal salvation. Also, scripture teaches that the natural man considers the gospel to be foolishness, so why would he choose it??

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.