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Inquiring into the "Rapture"


Justin Adams

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Eileenhat:

wow!  Where does one begin in regard to your last post.....

you state that your personal testimony can refute the rapture entirely and that you can easily debate it.  

The problem everyone will have with that claim is that you cannot refute the Bible! Your so-called visions cannot contradict the scripture.

Quoting out-of-context scripture and leaving out scripture entirely does not prove your self-deluded belief... or lack thereof.  

To be fair, I will say that all the popular "ideas" regarding the rapture as a doctrine are missing what scripture teaches.  The sheer amount of diversity in beliefs is enough to call it into question as a doctrine- but only as a doctrine, not as a misunderstood truth...

The overwhelming volume of debate and teaching has effectively created a dam that holds back any hope for most people to ever perceive the truth.

That being said... all of the false teachings in the world should not lead someone to completely dismiss the rapture as a scripturally based reality.  It will happen, but just not when, how, and why people are being taught.

You also stated that everything you've stated lines up with scripture, yet nothing you've said is scriptural, except that you did a cut-and-paste passage that had no bearing on the context of your ramblings.  

You are welcome to debate the rapture (as you stated, "from every viewpoint) with me, but you have nothing that will hold up against scripture, because my side of the debate will be backed solely by scripture, not personal testimonies of visions that blaspheme the God-breathed words of the Bible.

btw: I am not against visions- I receive such communication from God, and have, at times, misinterpreted what He was conveying.  But nothing I've interpreted ever went against the Bible, as yours have.  

I'd love to share a friendly debate with anyone who is mislead by popular teachings or someone who just finds it too overwhelming to grasp, but not with someone who denies the teaching of scripture and debates outside the realm of the written Word in its original languages.

If you're willing to be humble enough to be taught scripture, I'll gladly hear your side first.  But don't go "JW" on me and have your mind made up to stick with your false ideas while ignoring everything I say.

I don't come to this site often, usually only when prompted.  Patiently await, I may not be on the same "clock."

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6 minutes ago, GusWilby said:

Eileenhat:

wow!  Where does one begin in regard to your last post.....

you state that your personal testimony can refute the rapture entirely and that you can easily debate it.  

The problem everyone will have with that claim is that you cannot refute the Bible! Your so-called visions cannot contradict the scripture.

Quoting out-of-context scripture and leaving out scripture entirely does not prove your self-deluded belief... or lack thereof.  

To be fair, I will say that all the popular "ideas" regarding the rapture as a doctrine are missing what scripture teaches.  The sheer amount of diversity in beliefs is enough to call it into question as a doctrine- but only as a doctrine, not as a misunderstood truth...

The overwhelming volume of debate and teaching has effectively created a dam that holds back any hope for most people to ever perceive the truth.

That being said... all of the false teachings in the world should not lead someone to completely dismiss the rapture as a scripturally based reality.  It will happen, but just not when, how, and why people are being taught.

You also stated that everything you've stated lines up with scripture, yet nothing you've said is scriptural, except that you did a cut-and-paste passage that had no bearing on the context of your ramblings.  

You are welcome to debate the rapture (as you stated, "from every viewpoint) with me, but you have nothing that will hold up against scripture, because my side of the debate will be backed solely by scripture, not personal testimonies of visions that blaspheme the God-breathed words of the Bible.

btw: I am not against visions- I receive such communication from God, and have, at times, misinterpreted what He was conveying.  But nothing I've interpreted ever went against the Bible, as yours have.  

I'd love to share a friendly debate with anyone who is mislead by popular teachings or someone who just finds it too overwhelming to grasp, but not with someone who denies the teaching of scripture and debates outside the realm of the written Word in its original languages.

If you're willing to be humble enough to be taught scripture, I'll gladly hear your side first.  But don't go "JW" on me and have your mind made up to stick with your false ideas while ignoring everything I say.

I don't come to this site often, usually only when prompted.  Patiently await, I may not be on the same "clock."

I trust God's word that is in the Holy Bible. If a person reads these words literally you would have to come up with a pretribulation rapture. God takes the Church from this earth before the seven year tribulation. God's children are not meant to experience the wrath and judgement of this earth during the seven year tribulation.

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Revelation 3:10 .... the Lord will keep today's believers and those who are the dead in Christ from the coming tribulation period by making them immortal

Those who will become believers during the tribulation have a different setting [Revelation 14:12-13]

Some will be killed and resurrected at the end of the 70th week

Others that live will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom as mortals

Edited by Daniel 11:36
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Thank you Eilleenhat, your courage to speak the truth is commendable. 

Nowhere does the Bible say that God will take His people to live in heaven. It is only by inference and assumption that the rapture lie is construed. 

Isaiah 66:4  I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, no one answered; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before My eyes, and chose what displeased Me.  Ezekiel 20:25

With the rapture cult, the initial error is that of separating Israel and the Church, so they could still look for salvation to come to ethnic Israel, as a major tenet of their doctrine: Israel on earth, the Church in heaven.   The pre-Trib rapture teaches removal to ensure survival from tribulation, but salvation has always been stated to redeem us from our fallen sinful state,  in our earthly situation.   

 Acts 20:21 I know that when I am gone, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The rapture idea is that God will “save us” from that which must occur – thus equating this supposed removal with salvation. After so many Christians saw the inadequacy and misappropriation of the verses used to promote Pre-Trib, the Post-Trib alternative was then built around surviving the tribulation – thus sustaining the illusion that survival is somehow related to salvation. The “delusion” the LORD chose, is the strong delusion referenced in the New Testament:    2 Thessalonians 2:11  And for this reason God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

This “delusion” has people looking forward to the 2nd Coming (in the so called rapture, Pre, Mid, or Post) believing in an evacuation. The reality is, we experience  His glorious salvation when we enter in to the blessed assurance that Christ’s Death means the penalty for our sin has been paid because of His sacrifice on the cross. Our salvation was assured at the first coming, not the second. Ever since then, believers must trust in Jesus for their salvation and for their protection during the testing times to come.  Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 31:23-24

And if the Lord does not save them, as has happened to the millions of martyrs in the last 2 centuries, then we must die trusting in His promise of resurrection. Revelation 12:11 Our souls will be kept under the heavenly Altar, Revelation 6:9-11, and Jesus will bring them with Him at His Return, then bring us to life again, to reign with Him for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4

 

 

 

 

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Simple question,how can one keep the saying of the Book,if not here?

 

Revelation 22:9 "Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

 

Revelation 22:18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"

Revelation 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

 

Guess you'll need not read the Book of Revelation.

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On 10/10/2017 at 2:03 PM, Justin Adams said:

I am so confused by all the back and forth on this rapture subject, that I would like your opinions please.

Robert Cameron: "Now, be it remembered, that prior to that date, no hint of any approach to such belief can be found in any Christian literature from Polycarp down.... Surely, a doctrine that finds no exponent or advocate in the whole history and literature of Christendom, for eighteen hundred years after the founding of the Church...

I cannot find too much on the original writings of Mr. Darby, but I have excerpts here. I have seen so much 'discussion' about various rapture theories, that I  would like some clarifications and would really like to know more truth about this subject. 
It seems as though this had never been heard of at all before 1830-50.

The following is negative towards Mr. Darby's position.
However, ignoring that and the poor grammar and spelling, please comment on the subject that it discusses.

Source: http://www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm

_______________________________________________________________________

1. John Nelson Darby invented the false doctrine of the Rapture 1830-1833 AD and popularized it in 1850 to which it infected us today. While Morgan Edwards had also invented the doctrine in a college essay in 1744 AD, his work was isolated, forgotten and irrelevant as an etiology of the modern popularity of pre-tribulation Rapture doctrine. Darby invented the doctrine without any influence or reliance on Edwards.

2. Morgan Edwards wrote this short essay as a paper for Bristol Baptist College in Bristol England in 1744. After he immigrated to the USA, the essay was published in Philadelphia in 1788. It is clear that his school paper went as unnoticed as his formal publication in 1788 AD. While Edwards may in fact be the earliest person on earth to invent the pre-tribulation rapture, it is equally clear that Darby invented the same doctrine in 1830 AD and made it popular (100??) years later in 1850 AD.
"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.: I say, somewhat more; because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (1 Thes. iv, 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house of God" (John xiv: 2), and to disappear during the foresaid period of time. ... V. That spot of earth which. Christ will make the seat of his governments Mount Zion, in Jerusalem. Jerusalem and the temple will be rebuilt, as we shall prove by and by and that temple will be the house of Christ kingdom. ... VI. The risen and changed saints shall reign with Christ on earth a thousand years. I do not mean that all will be kings; for some are to be Christ' s priests, some judges, some rulers over cities, some over his household, some over his goods, (as wee shall see anon) and some his special chorister and musicians. (Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties, Morgan Edwards, 1744 AD, 1788 AD)

3. Darby notes that the doctrine "popped into his head" in 1830 AD. Before this, no one had ever heard of a secret rapture doctrine.

4. Darby is one of the founders of the "Plymouth Brethren" movement at the same time he first conceived his rapture theology. Therefore the Plymouth Brethren are inseparable from Rapture theology and always will be and should be avoided.

5. Modern influences of Darby include Dallas Theological Seminary, Bob Jones University, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye,  Jack Van Impe and Harold Camping, the Scofield Reference Bible.

6. Darby's Rapture theology has infected almost every conservative protestant church, except for a few groups like the Churches of Christ, who rejected it as a non-Biblical doctrine and have denounced it ever since like all other man made doctrines.

-------Further points

6. "Until brought to the fore through the writings and preaching and teaching of a distinguished ex-clergyman, Mr J. N. Darby, in the early part of the last century, it [rapture theology] is scarcely to be found in a single book or sermon through a period of sixteen hundred years". [230-1830 AD] (Harry Ironside, The Mysteries Of God, 1908).

7. "About 1830 a new school arose within the fold of Premillennialism that sought to overthrow what, since the Apostolic Age, have been considered by all premillennialist as established results, and to institute in their place a series of doctrines that had never been heard of before. The school I refer to is that of 'The Brethren' or 'Plymouth Brethren,' founded by J. N. Darby." (Alexander Reese, The Approaching Advent of Christ, page 18)

8. Robert Cameron: "Now, be it remembered, that prior to that date, no hint of any approach to such belief can be found in any Christian literature from Polycarp down.... Surely, a doctrine that finds no exponent or advocate in the whole history and literature of Christendom, for eighteen hundred years after the founding of the Church - a doctrine that was never taught by a Father or Doctor of the Church in the past - that has no standard Commentator or Professor of the Greek language in any Theological School until the middle of the Nineteenth century, to give it approval, and that is without a friend, even to mention its name amongst the orthodox teachers or the heretical sects of Christendom - such a fatherless and motherless doctrine, when it rises to the front, demanding universal acceptance, ought to undergo careful scrutiny before it is admitted and tabulated as part of 'the faith once for all delivered unto the saints." (Robert Cameron, Scriptural Truth About The Lord's Return, page 72-73).

9. E. R. Sandeen: "Darby introduced into discussion at Powerscourt (1833) the ideas of a secret rapture of the church and of a parenthesis in prophetic fulfillment between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks of Daniel. These two concepts constituted the basic tenets of the system of theology since referred to as dispensationalism" (E.R. Sandeen, The Roots of Fundamentalism 1800-1930, University of Chicago Press, 1970)

Hi Justin, Since th esubject is exhaustive and conclusions many I think I will just copy past one short but full introduction from John Piper as follows, and also  a page from the Criswell Study Bible  found at the beginning of the books of Revelation synopsis and commentary.

Definitions and Observations Concerning the Second Coming of Christ

Thumb john piper t1zc1vhs
Article by 
John Piper
 

Founder & Teacher, desiringGod.org

This is a brief and sketchy position paper intended to clarify my position without being exhaustive. The issues and arguments are far too many than we could deal with in one evening.

Let me stress that the disagreement over pre- and post-tribulationism is not one that I think should threaten our fellowship. It should not be divisive. The things on which we agree are so stupendous as to overwhelm our hearts in common love for the Lord and his appearing. Let us not make the second coming a center of controversy, but a cause for worship and earnest hope and liberating confidence for the ministry before us!

Definitions

 

Second Coming

Heb. 9:28, "So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."

A general reference to the final coming of Christ from heaven to earth to establish his glorious kingdom.

Rapture

This word is not in the Bible. But it refers to the snatching away of believers from the earth mentioned in 1 Thess. 4:17,

Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Tribulation

A general word referring to the hardships and sufferings that God's people will always have to pass through:

Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. (Acts 14:22)

Let no one be moved by these afflictions. You yourselves know that this is to be our lot. (1 Thess. 3:3 -4; cf. 2 Thess. 1:4)

More specifically Jesus refers to a time of "great tribulation" at the end of the age:

For then there will be a great tribultation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. (Matt. 24:21)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; then will appear the sign of the Son of Man . . . (Matt. 24:29f)

Seven years

That the tribulation will last seven years is not a New Testament teaching. It comes from Daniel 9:24-27 where Daniel predicts "seventy weeks of years" for the accomplishment of God's redemption.

The arguments are so detailed and involved we will not take the time now to sort them out. But many argue that the seventieth week of Daniel is separated from the first 69 and begins with the appearance of the antichrist or man of lawlessness. This is where the idea of a seven year tribulation comes from. The New Testament book of Revelation picks up this idea several times in its references to three and a half years (11:3; 12:6; 13:5).

Pre-tribulational Rapture

The view that before Christ returns in glory, he will return quietly to catch up the church and take us to heaven. This happens before the tribulation, and so the view is called the PRE-tribulational rapture. This implies that the Church will not be here during the tribulation.

Post-tribulational Rapture

The view that the rapture and the glorious second coming are part of one simultaneous event. The saints rise to meet the Lord in the air and accompany him back as the rightful king of the earth. This implies that the church will go through the tribulation on the earth.

Millennium

The period of time mentioned in Revelation 20:4 during which the saints "reign with Christ a thousand years." During this time Satan is bound and thrown into a pit "that he should not deceive the nations till the thousand years are ended" (Rev. 20:3). So the millennium is marked by peace and prosperity for God's people. After this time there will appear the new heaven and the new earth (Rev. 21:1; 2 Peter 3:13).

Pre-millennialism

The view that the second coming of Christ will precede the millennium and that he will rule personally and bodily on the earth during the thousand years.

Post-millennialism

The view that the millennium will come through the success of the gospel gradually converting the world and ushering in a golden age of the church. After a long period of peace and righteousness there will be an outbreak of evil and Christ will come in person to win the victory.

A-millennialism

The view that the thousand years in Revelation 20 is symbolic of the church age in which we live. There will be no earthly millennium as such. Rather the second coming will usher in the final state of the new heavens and new earth.

Arguments for Post-tribulationism

 

1. The word for "meeting" the Lord in the air in 1 Thessalonians 4:17(apantesin) is used in two other places in the New Testament: Matthew 25:6and Acts 28:15. In both places it refers to a meeting in which people go out to meet a dignitary and then accompany him in to the place from which they came out. One of these, Matthew 25:6, is even a parable of the second coming and so a strong argument that this is the sense of the meeting here in 1 Thess. 4:17-that we rise to meet the Lord in the air and then welcome him to earth as king.

2. The wording of 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7, when read carefully, shows that Paul expects to attain rest from suffering at the same time and in the same event that he expects the unbelievers to receive punishment, namely, at the revelation of Jesus with mighty angels in flaming fire. This revelation is not the pre-tribulational rapture but the glorious second coming. Which means that Paul did not expect an event at which he and the other believers would be given rest seven years before the glorious appearing of Christ in flaming fire. Vengeance on unbelievers and rest for the persecuted church come on the same day in the same event.

3. The wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 suggests that the "assembling to meet him" is the same as "the day of the Lord" about which they are confused. But the assembling is the "rapture" and "the day of the Lord" is the glorious second coming. They appear to be one event.

Supporting this is the reference to "gathering" the elect in Matthew 24:31. Here there is a gathering (same word) but it is clearly a post-tribulational context. So there is no need to see the gathering and the day of .the Lord in 2 Thessalonians as separate events.

4. If Paul were a pre-tribulationist why did he not simply say in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 that the Christians don't need to worry that the day of the Lord is here because all the Christians are still here? Instead he talks just the way you would expect a post-tribulational person to do. He tells them that they should not think that the day of the Lord is here because the apostasy and the man of lawlessness have not appeared. (See the AM sermon of 8-30-87 for more on this one.)

5. When you read Matthew 24 or Mark 13 or Luke 21, which are Jesus' descriptions of the end times, there is no mention of a rapture removing believers from the events of the end. A normal reading gives no impression of a departure. On the contrary, he talks as if the believing listeners and then the readers would or could experience the things he mentions. See Mt. 24:4, 9, 15, 23, 25f, 33, etc.

6. Going through tribulation, even when it is appointed by God, is not contrary to Biblical teaching. See especially 1 Peter 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10; Hebrews 12:3-11. But even so, Revelation 9:4 suggests that the saints will be in some measure protected in the time of distress by the seal of God.

7. The commands to "watch" do not lose their meaning if the second coming is not an any-moment one. See Matt. 25:1-13 where all ten maidens are asleep when the Lord returns. Yet the lesson at the end of the parable is, "Watch!" The point is that watching is not gazing up for an any-moment-return of the Lord; it is the moral vigilance that keeps you ready at all times doing your duty—the wise maidens had full lanterns! They were watchful!

Nor does the teaching that the second coming will be unexpected lose its force if post-tribulationism is true. See Luke 12:46 where the point is that if a servant gets drunk thinking that his master is delayed and will not catch him-that very servant will be surprised and taken off guard. But as 1 Thess. 5:1-5says, "You (believers) are not in darkness for that day to surprise you like a thief." We still teach that great moral vigilance and watchfulness is necessary lest we be lulled asleep and fall prey to the deceits of the last days and be overtaken in the judgment.

8. The strongest pre-tribulational text, Rev. 3:10, is open to another interpretation without any twisting. It says, "Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth." But to "be kept for the hour of testing" is not necessarily to be taken out of the world during this hour, and thus spared suffering. Compare Gal. 1:4 and Jesus' prayer for his disciples in John 17:15 where to "keep from" does not mean physical removal. And notice the inevitability of martyrdom in Rev. 6:9-11. The promise is to be guarded from the hour in the sense of being guarded from the demoralizing forces of that hour.

9. The second coming does not lose its moral power in post-tribulationism. New Testament moral incentive is not that we should fear being caught doing evil, but that we should so love the appearing of the Lord that we want to be pure as the Lord is pure, for whom we hope, as 1 John 3:1-3 says.

---------

From Criswell: On page 1477 of the Criswell Study Bible are a list of four methods of interpreting the book of Revelation itself, along with description of each  who advocates each of them,  and an evaluation of each by Dr. Criswell. I can't find  it online at this time. So I guess if you are interested you will have to take a peek at a bookstore.

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Thanks Neighbor.

Over the last months or so I have kinda formulated a time-line. I do not like Darby or any of the 17-18-19th century Brit weirdo 'revelations'. So much stuff has come out of these isles that I feel quite saddened.

My thoughts run along the idea of 'refuge' or similar. If the Lord God put an Angel at the Gate of Eden, and nobody can ever find it no matter how hard they try, then it stands to reason He can do that so that the Wrath (The Day of The Lord) does not harm His people. 

I am afraid I do have an issue with the 'great-elevator-to-the-sky' idea prior to anything really bad happening. (Tell that to the parents of drowned babies attempting to escape from Syria)
I think that many have been thus misled and it could cause some to loses faith.
I'm certain the Lord does NOT want people to loose faith; however, the Adversary does want just that to happen en mass.

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On 10/17/2017 at 5:27 AM, eileenhat said:

Everyone will eventually go through this resurrection process.  Of dying, of being judged, and if not thrown in the lake of fire, receiving a new, slightly used, body

Where are these resurrected bodies when they are judged and/or thrown into the lake of fire?

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On 10/16/2017 at 7:45 PM, missmuffet said:

I trust God's word that is in the Holy Bible. If a person reads these words literally you would have to come up with a pretribulation rapture. God takes the Church from this earth before the seven year tribulation. God's children are not meant to experience the wrath and judgement of this earth during the seven year tribulation.

You assume that the tribulation and God’s wrath are the same event.  The scripture doesn’t teach pre-trib rapture, but many interpret it that way.  Not everyone on the earth will suffer God’s wrath, He will protect us from it though. He protected Noah and his family from being TAKEN by His wrath and LEFT them behind to continue living after everything else was destroyed.  

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On 10/16/2017 at 11:15 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Revelation 3:10 .... the Lord will keep today's believers and those who are the dead in Christ from the coming tribulation period by making them immortal

Those who will become believers during the tribulation have a different setting [Revelation 14:12-13]

Some will be killed and resurrected at the end of the 70th week

Others that live will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom as mortals

Please keep in mind that the word for “keep” in Rev 3:10 comes from the root word that means “to be a spectator.”  In the form used in this verse, it literally means to “watch over,” or “to guard.”  The word translated “from” in that verse is usually translated as “because of” later on by John in Revelation.  Read the verse with the actual meanings of those words and you will know what it is saying.

The Biblical truth of the rapture isn’t meant to rescue anyone before any tribulation or persecution.  I understand that others in this post see this error of a “rescue rapture,” but instead of understanding the reason for it, they deny it totally due to the false rapture doctrines.  I agree with them that there will be no pre-millennial raptures, but because “rapture” has become a church doctrine, rather than an accepted action taken by God to bring us to judgement, many refuse to see God’s valid purpose for it.  

Edited by Guest
Clarification, I hope...
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