Skeleton Rapture Crew

[Unfailing Presence]

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

Did God abandon the Christians in the Roman persecutions?

 

Individual Christians are being persecuted &  killed for their faith in locales  all over the world still today .

Can you name a time when they were not . 

This is the present " tribulation "  Jesus spoke of that those who Love Him would have from the moment they love Him .

It is not a " judgement "   upon believers , and has been going on since Jesus first came  . 

Do you understand how God's comprehensive  judgment of the tribulation is different ? 

Different enough for Jesus to say it will be   " as the world has NEVER seen "  

You seem to not have  full grasp of what the difference Jesus spoke of is .

[Quasar93]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

 

Thank you for your input and extensive presentation of meaningless opinion without a shred of Scriptural support to verify your claims. 

First of all, let me introduce myself to you: My qualifications I earned to teach the Bible came from: Prairie Bible Institute, in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada; Liberty University, in Lynchburg, VA and Dallas Theological Seminary, in Dallas TX.  I have participated on Christian discussion forums for the better part of 20 years including my own.  I am a 94 year pld WWII Vet who has studied the Bible for 80 years.

And where may I ask did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?  The following is the Biblical description of the pre-trib rpture of the Church, taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, you infer, are all liars:  You have made a complete hash out ofmy post I provided with Scriptural proof fr the pre-trib rapture of the Church with your opinionated editorial guesswork in it

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.'Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar93

 

 

 

[inchrist]

4 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Individual Christians are being persecuted &  killed for their faith in locales  all over the world still today .

Can you name a time when they were not . 

This is the present " tribulation "  Jesus spoke of that those who Love Him would have from the moment they love Him .

It is not a " judgement "   upon believers , and has been going on since Jesus first came  . 

Do you understand how God's comprehensive  judgment of the tribulation is different ? 

Different enough for Jesus to say it will be   " as the world has NEVER seen "  

You seem to not have  full grasp of what the difference Jesus spoke of is .

I fully grasp it, just your phrasing to us to provide evidence of "God to abandon an entire generation of His faithful "

God has never failed any believer in  any way shape or form of persecution....its just a bad choice of words.

However if you want prophetic template of the tribulation and how God protects his believers in the tribulation... Lucky for us God gave us his battle plans in the OT......the battle of Jericho

And as you stated God js the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

 

 

[Quasar93]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

I have to respectfully disagree, the church certainly did exist prior to Pentecost.

Heb 2:12

Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

Matthew 26:30King James Version (KJV)

³⁰ And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives

 

 

There is no Church without the Holy Spirit.  As I previously posted, Jesus ministry in His first advent ws exclusively to Israel, recorded in Mt.15:24,  The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, recorded in Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, recorded in Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3, whether you accept it or not.

 

Quasar93

[Quasar93]

Just now, Quasar93 said:

There is no Christian Church without the Holy Spirit.  As I previously posted, Jesus ministry in His first advent ws exclusively to Israel, recorded in Mt.15:24,  The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, recorded in Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, recorded in Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3, whether you accept it or not.

 

Quasar93

 

[Unfailing Presence]

20 minutes ago, inchrist said:

 

 

However if you want prophetic template of the tribulation and how God protects his believers in the tribulation... Lucky for us God gave us his battle plans in the OT......the battle of Jericho

 

 

 

I'm am interested in learning as much as I can about this point of view about having an entire population stand as " protected " witnesses to the greatest slaughter the 

world has ever seen that I do not understand .

Would they not be  " protected " if they were raptured away as well  ,  yes , no  ?

So then you must have some spiritually discerned knowledge of the holy purpose for which God would want these " protected"  to witness the horror never before or never again 

to be witnessed . 

What is it ? 

[Justin Adams]

The Roman church killed between 50 and 80 million Christian people according to historical records.

(Lyons 415). Children were given special attention. Before long the now familiar Jesuit saying was coined “Give me a child until he is seven, and he will remain Catholic the rest of his life.” This is because of the coordinated program of persuasion i.e. brainwashing with the Roman Catholic goals and beliefs.

So there have been a great number of Christian deaths.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Unfailing Presence said:

The word of God shows His point of never abandoning an entire group / generation of those faithful & obedient to Him . 

Quite the opposite in fact . 

Why don't you back up your position of this human concocted  one time willingness of God to abandon an entire generation of His faithful in this historic future  judgement  event with so much as a syllable of  God's word ?

I can give you dozens of God's prophecies where God swears the opposite .   To never abandon or forsake His faithful to the  judgement of those who reject Him .

God does not change yesterday , today , or tomorrow for the desired whims of man . 

Change Him if you can ?

Give us just one word Of God's pledging to do  the opposite if you can ?

 

                                                              " I will both lay me down in peace , and sleep , for thou Lord only makest me dwell in safety ."   ( Psalm 4 : 8 )

 

 

Statements like the above are predicated on ultimate knowledge of every heart and mind, and it shows prejudice. First, none of us has any clue as to who is faithful or not, only God has this knowledge. His standards, His rules; he adjudicates as He see fit. None of us has any say in the matter. No group of people is pure of heart to the last soul. To assert the Church walks in total purity is to deny reality.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Unfailing Presence said:

 

That fact that you believe the judgement to the tribulation is all about weeding out  " pretenders" shows an woeful understanding of the tribulation judgement's purpose .

I'm beginning to see what  your confusion is rooted in .

News flash , God is  " weeding out pretenders "  on   December 9 , 2017  as well as every day that has ever existed prior to December 9 , 2017 .

At least you understand tribulation is judgment. Now you just need the understanding judgment begins at the house of God, us.

Pray tell, what is the judgment of the tribulation's true purpose?

[Diaste]

 

44 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

There is no Church without the Holy Spirit.  As I previously posted, Jesus ministry in His first advent ws exclusively to Israel, recorded in Mt.15:24,  The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, recorded in Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, recorded in Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3, whether you accept it or not.

 

Quasar93

Well then the church existed since at least the time of King David.

 

Psalm 51:11

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

 

King David had the Spirit of God as did others well before Jesus walked the earth as a man. Lots of evidence for this just in the OT prophets. No one was able to be saved at any time in history without the Holy Ghost, nor sans repentance. I suppose you believe that the sacrifices of animals in the OT is what actually saved souls.