Not Destined for Wrath

[Diaste]

On 12/16/2017 at 2:20 PM, Sojourner414 said:

Yeah, it side-steps grace; basing salvation on what the person did instead of the Lord's sacrificial death on the cross.

When the Rapture comes, it's not going to be a question of "who's good enough", as none of us are really. It's Jesus' blood and not our own efforts that are the basis for salvation. The Lord comes to get what is rightfully His beforehand, and while He's not willing that any should perish, He's not going to force someone to come to Him. Seeing as during the Tribulation, a great "harvest" of those who come to the Lord is reaped (as per Scripture), one purpose of the Tribulation is to shake the comfort zones of the comfortable and set before them the choice they have to make.

The truth is the elect, believer, is not, are not, appointed to wrath. We all agree on this no matter the rapture doctrine. Pre trib states the last week, the tribulation, is the wrath of God hence, the need for a pretrib rapture. No problem. I get that. But a problem does arise none the less. How can a great company of the elect come from great tribulation when the tribulation is the wrath of God and believers are not appointed to wrath?

That is something those who attain to the "mid" and "post" Rapture positions may not realize: there's no purpose for the Church to be here on the Earth during that time. If Christ's blood was not enough for salvation, than nothing is. And the claim of "God didn't save believers from His wrath in times past" mistakes the wrath of Man and the natural state of the Earth under sin for God's direct wrath. Nothing has been right with this planet since the fall of man, and weather, disease, crop failures, etc., while having been used by the Lord in the past at times, are not automatic indicators of God being angry.

Maybe your missing the idea that it's God's purpose to have the church on earth during the persecution of the great tribulation.

 

But the time of the Tribulation is stated to be the time of God's wrath (Rev 6).

No. In the order of the seals wrath is not mentioned until the 6th seal, after the first 5 seals are opened. Wrath only comes after this, 

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Now the people of the earth are terrified.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

And only now does the day of wrath begin.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Before this the conqueror rides forth, famine, death, and war follow; exactly like the beginning of sorrows in Matt 24, and then the martyrs are seen under the throne, then the sign and the fear and only after all this does the great day of wrath begin.

 

I think a couple of mistakes that those who hold to the other views of the Rapture make are: to 1) assume that we who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture only do so as an "escape"; and 2) that we pretty much figure "tough cookies" to anyone who is not "lucky"/ "blessed"/ "other" enough to go. Those assumptions paint with a fairly broad, inaccurate brush and unfairly categorizes people who have studied Scripture, prayed and thought about the scenario just as much as those who hold to the other views on the Rapture. As previously stated: the Lord comes for what is rightfully His. He's entitled to the Church, and if He wants to remove the Church before the Tribulation, He is of course free to do so. Not to mention that we are "not appointed to wrath"; the Lord would have been more specific about "which wrath" had it only been the penalty of death for sin, were that the case.

Well, I'm not convinced the above supports pretrib, but hey..to each his own.

Personally, what I think is going to happen is that after the Rapture, the Lord is going to express some disappointment during the Bema Seat Judgment at how believers treated fellow believers who held to other views of the Rapture they saw as supported by Scripture.  None of us are going to have "everything right", as we all "see darkly through the glass" right now in this life. But as a certainty: more "blood" has been shed emotionally on this issue than will ever be literally in the Great Tribulation itself.

Does this idea include you? Do you mean views other than what you believe or is this reciprocal?

 

What makes it even sadder is that it is believers doing so.

 

In any event; going to bow out of this, as I already know all the ways some will try to tear my post apart (not you, Cobalt).  Not interested in debating with the "pre-trib sucks" crowd.

A nice wrap up; denigrate the people you should call brothers. You lament how believers are treated on this issue and yet you take a parting shot. Fascinating.

 

-Sojo414.

 

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 9:20 AM, Last Daze said:

That is a very concise summation of the pretrib mindset held by many.  Not what I believe.

Last days I don't care what the common folk say about ya,  I luves ya.   BUT WE DO GO THROUGH TRIBULATION from man and satan.

ITS GOD , HIS WRATH that HE DUMPS upon the wicked . WE DONT GO THROUGH.

my advice stands.  BE prepared to endure a living hell scourge tribulation by the devil and his minions .   God , his wrath that gets dumped on them , WE escape.

BUT MANS wrath  , tribulation.  PARD we appointed unto it , TIS the righteous judgement of GOD that we be counted worthy of the kingdom for which we suffer.

AND THROUGH MUCH tribulation we do enter the KINGDOM.    THE DEVIL and his own will soon hit a climatic apex of a great tribulation to come against all lambs

who don't buy his all inclusive lie for world peace.   YA better be prepared now to lose all , cause we , the church, is bout to get hammered in the greatest tribulation

that has been or ever will be again.    And many lambs will bleed.   HEY , HEY ,  JESUS bled for us FIRST .............so fear not to bleed for him.   STOP heeding

the wolves who got rich off this .     YOU HEED JESUS and IN THIS WORLD ya better know its TRIBULATION .   peace in HIM , but a severe tribulation

of such great number killed is coming .  satan the beast , false prophet , spirits at work to gather the world in the all inclusive lie for world peace

AND anyone not buying the dung preached , WILL BE SEEN as haters and unfit for society in short time .   NOW all I can say is WHEN our tribulation

begins........REMEMBER like paul said ..........AND WE GLORY in tribulation .  CAUSE its coming and no ticket out of here .  ENDURE FAITHFUL TO THE END>

 

[Daniel 11:36]

"my advice stands.  BE prepared to endure a living hell scourge tribulation by the devil and his minions .   God , his wrath that gets dumped on them , WE escape"

 

Some will become believers after the Lord's tribulation begins .... these will be made immortal at the end [Revelation 14:12-13; 20:4]

The first group of Revelation 20:4 are the immortal pre-tribulation [those on thrones] .... it is these that will be kept from the Lord's tribulation

The balance in Revelation 20:4 will experience the tribulation period as stated and resurrected at the end of the period as stated

Study your Bible  

Edited December 28, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[Justin Adams]

Tribulation is mostly MAN TO MAN.

WRATH is YaH to man. Huge difference.

And to those that wish to make unkind mention of peoples' suffering, look to the 100 million believers that Rome tortured and killed. During their tribulation there was no rapture so why do we think we deserve any better? Man will give us a terrible time and even think they are doing YaH a service - such will be the deception. Such will be the tribulation of the saints.

[Keras]

People need to seriously consider what God really wants of us humans. He made us, what for? 

God has very cleverly made it so that we have a choice: believe in Him and keep His Laws, or not.  The existence of the Creator God is sufficiently hidden, so as to enable those who want to go their own way and disbelieve in God, can do so. 

So God has us humans endowed with free will, basically trapped in the playpen of earth, dividing into two groups: believers and rejecters of God. Scripture is clear; He makes sure that the believers are truly faithful to Him, by testing and trials. Many haven't had to face extreme testing unto death, but we can be sure that everyone has been tested in some way.  Job is our prime example of keeping his faith in God, despite heavy trials. And who sent those trials? Satan, the Deceiver. 

Now, Satan is still around, 1 Peter 5:8-10, and the 'rapture to heaven' theory proves he is as good as ever in spreading lies and confusion. 

Those who think they can escape God's wrath need to consider whether they are true children of God or not:

In the struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.  You have forgotten the exhortation, which address you as sons:

My son; do not think lightly of the Lord’s discipline, or be discouraged when He corrects you. For whom the Lord loves, He disciplines and He chastises every son He acknowledges.

 

You must endure this testing, God is treating you as His children. Can anyone be a child and not be disciplined by his father?

If you avoid the discipline in which all children share, the you must be illegitimate and not true children.

Again, as we paid due respect to our human fathers who disciplined us, we should submit even more readily to our Spiritual father and so attain Life. They disciplined us for a short time, as they thought best, but God does so for our true welfare, so that we may share in His holiness.

 

Discipline, to be sure, is never pleasant and at times; painful, but afterwards those who have been trained by it will reap the harvest of a peaceful and upright life.

 

So: brace your drooping arms and shaking knees and keep strong in your faith, then after it is all over God will give healing and blessings.

Hebrews 12:4-13

 

[Daniel 11:36]

"so why do we think we deserve any better?"

 

Some in this present world do, and some do not

Salvation is one thing .... and those who are truly saved will either die or they will be changed as the Lord has said

His coming period of the tribulation is a far different thing and designed for an unbelieving world [Revelation 6:12-17]

You either get this, or you do not

Those who become believers during the tribulation of the Lord's judgment and wrath will be saved [Revelation 3:14-22]

Those who are already believers before will be made immortal, dead or alive .... then He will execute His judgment upon a world of unbelief

Where do you stand? 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[Diaste]

On 12/28/2017 at 12:33 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

"so why do we think we deserve any better?"

 

Some in this present world do, and some do not

Salvation is one thing .... and those who are truly saved will either die or they will be changed as the Lord has said

His coming period of the tribulation is a far different thing and designed for an unbelieving world [Revelation 6:12-17]

You either get this, or you do not

Those who become believers during the tribulation of the Lord's judgment and wrath will be saved [Revelation 3:14-22]

Those who are already believers before will be made immortal, dead or alive .... then He will execute His judgment upon a world of unbelief

Where do you stand? 

The time is coming for the Judgment of God to begin at the house of God, and if it begins with us, what is the fate of the those who do not obey the good news and the truth?

1 Peter 4

[Diaste]

40 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

The verse you quoted contains the answer: "what is the fate of the those who do not obey the good news and the truth? Our judgment was taken for us when Christ died for us at the Cross; otherwise, why mention in the same sentence about the fate of those who do not obey the good news and the truth (the gospel)? If that is not the case, if Christ's blood is not sufficient to save us from future wrath, how then can it save us from any wrath?

Psalm 118:18

The LORD has disciplined me severely, But He has not given me over to death.

Psalm 119:67

Before I was afflicted I went astray, But now I keep Your word.

Hebrews 12:5-11

and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

1 Corinthians 11:32

But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

John 15:2

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Revelation 3:19

Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

[Daniel 11:36]

"Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent"

 

This is the warning given by the Lord to those left who will go through the coming tribulation [Revelation 3:15-19]

 

[Keras]

7 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent"

 

This is the warning given by the Lord to those left who will go through the coming tribulation [Revelation 3:15-19]

 

Which will be everyone alive on the Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath onto the earth.

Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. 

Zephaniah 3:8 Therefore, wait for the Day of Judgement of the nations; I will pour the fire of My wrath upon the nations....

1 Corinthians 3:13 The works that each person has done will be brought to light, the Day of Judgement will expose it. For that Day will dawn in fire and fire will test each persons worth.

A rapture removal of anyone before this forthcoming Day, is wrong and cannot happen. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Keras