Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

[Daniel 11:36]

"Daniel they are talking way above your pay grade"

 

That is what you think son ....but you are wrong

[Steve Conley]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve,

Not quite sure what you mean there bro. Can you explain please?

Do you mean me enlarging on the details of the great earthquake? It seems to me you have not thought that out, -  that civilization would not be the same afterwards. Thus I tried to give you a bigger picture.

Marilyn.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C., recapitulation is the teaching that the septet judgements (trumpets, vials) and seals happen not in series (one after another) but happen in parallel (first seal, trumpet, and vial together; then 2nd seal, trumpet, and vial together; etc; or some other variation of the same sort). Post-tribulationists must adopt that view because they have Christ's return at the end of the week.

John sees a number of earthquakes and only the last is said to be unprecedented. Notice, that there are temporal (timing related) references in the text of each one of these.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 8:1  And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2  And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Rev 8:3  And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4  And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Rev 8:5  And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6  And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7  The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16  And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17  Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19  And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 16:17  And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18  And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19  And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20  And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

The verse from Isa 24 which you referred to would appear to refer to the unprecedented earthquake of the 7 vial judgement.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C., recapitulation is the teaching that the septet judgements (trumpets, vials) and seals happen not in series (one after another) but happen in parallel (first seal, trumpet, and vial together; then 2nd seal, trumpet, and vial together; etc; or some other variation of the same sort). Post-tribulationists must adopt that view because they have Christ's return at the end of the week.

 

Thanks Steve,

Ok, then that makes sense, and that is what I believe - the events are parallel. I will do a diagram and then you can highlight parts that you think don`t fit & why.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

[Steve Conley]

57 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

 

 

Hallelujah

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Steve,

I notice in your diagram that you see the great earthquake of Rev. 6: 12 - 17 and the great earthquake of Rev. 16: 17 - 21 as occurring at different times. What do you see different about them?

Revelation 6: 12 – 14.

`And behold when He had opened the sixth seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.`

 

Revelation 16: 18 & 19

 `….and there was a great earthquake such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great, and the great city was divided into three parts and the cities of the nations fell……..and every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.`

Marilyn. 

[Steve Conley]

On 3/31/2018 at 1:10 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve,

I notice in your diagram that you see the great earthquake of Rev. 6: 12 - 17 and the great earthquake of Rev. 16: 17 - 21 as occurring at different times. What do you see different about them?

Revelation 6: 12 – 14.

`And behold when He had opened the sixth seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.`

 

Revelation 16: 18 & 19

 `….and there was a great earthquake such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great, and the great city was divided into three parts and the cities of the nations fell……..and every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.`

Marilyn. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C., although they are both great earthquakes the second is said to be unprecedented, "such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great". Even if there was no other distinction in the greatness of this earthquake the fact that it is the last of the last seven plagues, and that the last seven plagues come after the blowing of the seventh trumpet, and that the trumpet judgements (including the blowing of the seventh) come after the seventh seal is opened, which follows the sixth seal, makes it impossible for them to be the same. Similarity doesn't mean they are the same event.

In your system not only do you disregard the temporal language of the text, but you also have God's wrath being poured out upon the earth-dwellers, before Christ has broken the seven seals to the biblion. The prophet Joel was quite clear concerning the sign that would precede the day of the Lord. (Note: the day of the Lord is the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with the world.) Peter even spoke of it as the end parameter of the church age.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Act 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The disciples asked Christ concerning the signs of His coming (parousia) and the end of the age. The end of the age takes place at His singular arrival and continuing presence.

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

It is after we are safely at the Fathers house, before the throne (Rev 7:9-17) that His wrath begins to be poured out in the trumpet and vial judgements, and in the end the Beast and the armies that follow him are destroyed.

Be diligent to make every statement of the Scriptures in your eschatological model true.

All glory be unto the Lamb.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Steve Conley

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C., although they are both great earthquakes the second is said to be unprecedented, "such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great". Even if there was no other distinction in the greatness of this earthquake the fact that it is the last of the last seven plagues, and that the last seven plagues come after the blowing of the seventh trumpet, and that the trumpet judgements (including the blowing of the seventh) come after the seventh seal is opened, which follows the sixth seal, makes it impossible for them to be the same. Similarity doesn't mean they are the same event.

In your system not only do you disregard the temporal language of the text, but you also have God's wrath being poured out upon the earth-dwellers, before Christ has broken the seven seals to the biblion.

Hi Steve,

There has to be a recognisable difference for the scriptures to say `...there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake, as had NOT occurred since men were on the earth.` (Rev. 16: 18) As you seem to not see a difference then we can say God is speaking of the same great earthquake.

Also the 7 last plagues are the COMPLETION NOT the beginning of God`s wrath. God`s wrath starts with the trumpet judgments - hail, blood and fire. Jesus spoke of this `I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!`  (Luke 12: 49)

Then regarding the scroll. You do err my bro, I believe when you don`t understand it is the legal document (pictorial representation) of what God requires to be judged. God the Father has given all authority and judgment into the Son`s hand and it is He who will execute the judgments written. Judgment upon the 4 Federations that will finally make up the World System, (final Global Government), judgment upon those who kill the martyrs, and then judgment upon all mankind. it is a clear overview indicating the beginning, the middle and the end of the trib. Thus all that follows fits within that time frame.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

[Marilyn C]