The Dark Side of Christianity

[HAZARD]

56 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

John 3: 15-16  that whoever believes in Him should not perish but^[a] have eternal life. ¹⁶ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

If a person is promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never eternal life to begin with, if eternal security is not true the promises of eternal life in the Bible is a lie.

 

 Believe in Him, even get baptized, then return to a life of sin you will be cut off. Lucifer, better known as Satan and the devil, and over one third of God's angels sinned and are to be damned in a Hell especially prepared for them (Matt. 24:41). It would be folly for anyone to argue that they were not once holy and sinless and in God's favour and grace. Angels are definately called "sons of God" (Gen. 6:1-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). These sons of God in Job could not be men, for they were present when God laid the foundations of the Earth long before man was created (Job 38:4-7). If these "sons of God" fell and are to be damned, then the argument of some that if a man is once a son he cannot be lost or else salvation is not salvation and eternal life is not eternal life, is proved to be a false theory. Lucifer is spoken of as being "perfect in they ways from the day that thou wast created, TILL iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:11-17). If God will damn some of creation who were in grace and who are called "sons," then He will also damn others if they sin, else God is unjust and a respecter of persons. 

King Saul, was in God's favour and he had the Holy Spirit, but lost that favour and was destroyed because of sin (1 Chron. 10:13-14). He committed suicide and must be lost, for no murderer has eternal live (1 Sam. 28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21).

To argue that Saul was never a saved man is to demonstrate a lack of Bible truth. "God gave Saul another heart . . . and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied (1 Sam. 10:9-13).

If this was not an experience of the saved man then it was nothing at all. It is also recorded haw the Spirit of God LEFT HIM WHEN HE SINNED (1 Sam. 16:12-23). Saul went into spiritualism and God said He would cut off the man who did this (Lev. 19:31; 20:6; Deut. 18:11). He was a very humble and Godley man to begin with, but he did not end in this way (1 Sam. 10:21-24).

Ananias and Sapphira were both killed by the power of God because of covetousness and lying to the Holy Ghost (acts 5:1-14). That they were once saved is clear from Acts 4:32-5:1, for Ananias and his wife were classed with "the multitude of them that believed" and "were of one heart and one soul . . . as many as were posessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles feet . . . But a certain man [of those who believed and were of one heart and soul] named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a posession." If these two were believers and had been saved and were in the church, then it cannot be disputed with any degree of honesty that they were once saved and then lost. To deny they were once saved is to deny truth and it is not worth the price to pay.

Many galatians who were once saved and had "recieved the Spirit" who had "begun in the Spirit" who were "redeemed and justified by faith," and who were "sons" of God by being made free from sin (Gal. 3:2-4; 3:13; 24; 4:4-7; 5:1-26), FELL "from grace" and Christ became "OF NO EFFECT" unto them (Gal. 5:4, 5). They were "removed from Him" and "from grace," so once in grace always in grace is not biblical unless one stays in grace (Gal. 1:6; 3:1-5; 5:1-9). They were plainly told that to go back under the law and into sins of the flesh, meant to "frustrate [cause to fail, nullify, make void] the grace of God" and that in such case they were not in grace and would reap corruption (Gal. 2:21; 5:1-9; 6:7, 8). They were told that if they built again the things of sin that were "once destroyed" they were transgressors and sinners (Gal. 2:17-18). They were taught that true eternal security was by walking in the spirit and not fulfilling the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:16-26; 6:7, 8). Paul did not tell then that if they got in grace their responsibility as to sin was over. He accused them of falling from grace (Gal. 5:4), so such must be possible.

[HAZARD]

12 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

People who have been born of God have been changed, they have a new nature that detests sinning, and tries (generally succeeding) to resist temptation. Sin is not a lifestyle for them, they are undergoing growth, progress in holy living, and it shows in the fruit of their lives.

If there is no such fruit, then they have every reason to wonder if indeed, that have ever been saved, or are just self deceived. This has nothing at all to do with whether they believe in OSAS or not, there are people in both camps, theologically who sin with regularity, and people in both theological camps, who live exemplary lives.

For what it is worth, I have never run into anyone, who has expressed the idea that they may sin freely, since they have been saved and cannot lose it. For you to suggest otherwise (that this is how such people think) is equivalent to me saying that since you believe you can lose your salvation, that you therefore believe you salvation is predicated upon your own works, not upon your faith in the work of the Savior, which is by grace alone.

Do you suppose that those of us who hold to what we believe to be the Biblical teaching of OSAS are unfamiliar with the following text?:

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

We are quite aware that not only are we saved by grace alone:

 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But that we are saved for a purpose:

 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

 

Many men who were formerly saved have gone back into sin and have been lost.

This fact is clear from such statements as these: "some having put away concerning the faith have MADE SHIPWRECK. . . . he hath DENIED THE FAITH. . . . when they begin to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; HAVING DAMNATION, BECAUSE they have CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH . . . and TURNED ASIDE AFTER SATAN . . . But they that will FALL INTO TEMPTATION AND A SNARE, and INTO MANY FOOLISH AND HURTFUL LUSTS, WHICH DROWN MEN IN DESTRUCTION AND PERDITION. . . . they HAVE ERRED FROM THE FAITH. . . . and OVERTHRONE the FAITH OF SOME. . . . If God will preadventure give them REPENTANCE. . . . that they may RECOVER THEMSELVES OUT OF THE SNARE OF THE DEVIL" (1 Tim. 1"19, 20; 5:8; 5:11-15, 20; 6:1, 10, 21; 2 Tim. 2:18-16).

Each one of the statements above would disprove that doctrin of once in grace and faith always in grace and faith and once saved always saved, but here in 1 and 2 Timothy are many such statements in only two small books of the Bible. False security believers go to any lengthin trying to explain away these simple passages because they so clearly contradict their theory. Some of them go so far as to deliberately mistranslate the Greek and quote self made translations of men to prove that such simple statements do not mean what they say. For example, they mistranslate "they have cast off their first faith" to "they have broken their former promises" as if this proves a person cannot be lost. The Greek word "pistin" from "pistis" is never translated promises out of hundreds of times it is used in the New Testament. It is translated "faith" 222 times and is refered to as having faith in Christ in Rom. 1:5,16, 17; 3:25; 4:5-20; 5:1, 2; 10:17; Gal. 2:20; 3:24-29; Eph. 2:9; 4:5; etc. Thus the "faith" that they made shipwreck" of, "denied," "cast off," "erred from," and did "overthrow" is the true saving faith and has no reference to some promise that the people made themselves. They could not cast off, deny, and make shipwreck of, this saving faith if they had not once had it. They could not get into a snare of the devil AGAIN unless they had once been delivered from him. They could not have "turned aside" AGAIN after Satan, if they had not been following Christ. They could not have ERRED FROM the faith through hurtful lusts that "drowned in destruction and purdition" if they had not been once in the faith and free from such lusts. They could not have their faith OVERTHROWN if they had none to overthrow.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 12/26/2017 at 2:55 PM, HAZARD said:

Many men who were formerly saved have gone back into sin and have been lost.

How do you know they were saved, and not just merely professing to believe? It is God alone who know the heart, and God alone who changes the heart. All we can do is look for evidence of their faith in their lives. Do you suppose, that an unregenerate person (enemies of God they are called in the Bible) can believe God, turn from his sin, and then embrace God? I do not. I think that scripture indicated that God is the proactive party, He draws people to Himself, reveals Himself, changes hearts, and THEN they are able to repent and come to Him. That is why it is grace,  because the only contribution we made to our own salvation, is the sin we needed to be saved from. That is why the Bible speaks to being born from above. Spiritual birth is of God, and by that, He has seen fit to adopt us into His family, and make us coheirs with His only begotten Son.

Once having been adopted, which is a measure that parents do to make children part of the family, God does not unadopt His family. Some may be rebellious, and run off for a while, but they are still family. The true children of God, recognize their sins, and repent, like the prodigal son.

In contrast to the unregenerate people who come to God when they have no Spirit living in them and are spiritually blind, deaf, slaves to sin, enemies of God and incapable of understanding the things of God, you have true, born again believers. How is it, that a person who now has the Spirit living in him, and now spiritually sees and hears, is freed from slavery to sin, no longer an enemy of God but a lover of God who does understand . . . then choose to walk away from the love and understanding of God that he now possesses? He might have a momentary lapse in behavior, and even a temporary crises of faith, but he is now receptive to God and His calling in ways that were not even possible pre-salvation, and no one can pluck him out of God's hand, no one means not even one. Since not anyone can, that necessarily includes himself.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:27-28).

We still wrestle, of course, we have a new nature, those of us who are actually born again, but we still have the old nature to deal with, our sin nature. Sin lives in us (Romans 7), but He who lives in us is stronger, and He gives us the ability to resist temptation (1 Cor 10:13).

18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they  went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I suggest, that the above is a rough description of those who at first, appear to be believers, but that their eventual actions, demonstrate that they we not of the fold. There were not among those that God gave to His Son, to inherit eternal life.

[Omegaman 3.0]

BTW, I think some of the things said here are valuable to consider, but I also think that why they answer some questions implicit in the OP, they are also a bit off topic.

Especially the idea that Christians can lose salvation and that OSAS explains bad behavior. That is utter nonsense, as I think we have already shown, and it feeds the idea that Christianity  has a dark side. It does not, it just has people in churches, who do not live up to their calling. People who fail, do not invalidate the faith, they just make it look bad, by failing to practice it.

Since this thread is not about OSAS, I am abandoning that part of the thread, as off topic, and out of place here.

[4LdKHVCzRDj2]

3 hours ago, DesertSW said:

That's the "go to" response for Christians behaving badly. The old tried and true, "well, they weren't Christians to begin with."

It is a trait of many who consider themselves Christians... But what they claim to be does not matter.

"If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true." - John 5:31

 

The Lord warned us that we will recognize them by the fruits.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?" - Matthew 7:15-16

 

And if anyone claims to be Christian and do not walk accordingly, in the light, it is a problem:

"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." - 1 John 2:6

 

"Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal:
“The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[a] depart from iniquity.”" - 2 Timothy 2:19

 

It is shocking to know there are so many people interested in being a Christian, but do not want to behave like them.

Well, the Lord warned us, be humble and walk with Him yourself, even if the whole world are not doing it.

"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able." - Luke 13:24

 

OK, Christians can make mistakes, but what differentiates them is what they do after that. A Christian would be humble and recognize his mistake and would apologize.

Edited December 27, 2017 by 4LdKHVCzRDj2

[FresnoJoe]

5 hours ago, DesertSW said:

This dark side is about how born-again Christians will betray you and the faith....
it is not the Christian faith that failed...

but that person....
who failed....

They failed to follow God and His Word. Christians will disappoint you....
sin against you and hurt you, please be prepared...

that this can and most likely will occur....
in your lifelong journey as a Christian....

 

4 hours ago, DesertSW said:

I'm sorry, no offense to you, but I have heard this response 1,000x and it's hogwash....
That's the "go to" response for Christians behaving badly....

The old tried and true....
"well, they weren't Christians to begin with."....

The reality is that real Christians do sin and commit evil acts against other Christians....
The reality is then Christians don't address the problem....

So even though a TRUE Christian served Christ and the church for 20 years....
commits a sin and violates God's Word....

Then the "Christians can't do no wrong" group comes out....
and throws that Christian under the bus....

claims they weren't....
a true believer to begin with....

The reality is Christians sin and do things that they shouldn't do....
They hurt others and sin against people and God....

To say otherwise is a disgrace....
and to put one's head in the sand.....

Clang

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 1 Corinthians 13:1 (New International Version)

Clang

Purify me from my sins, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. Psalms 51:7 (New Living Translation)

Clang

Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth, so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart. 1 Peter 1:22 (Berean Study Bible)

Went The Trolley

From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:16-21 (English Standard Version)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

 

~

 

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

 

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

 

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

 

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

 

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

 

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

 

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

[DesertSW]

4 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

 It is a fact of life that people can, and do turn on us, for whatever reason, and no person in the situation is ever 100% innocent.  Neither person in a broken marriage is 100% innocent.  You wife's leaving has jaundiced you in a way that is highly visible, and at this point in time, is affecting your outlook on everything, including your relationships with other people.  

 

People don't hate hearing "Move on," because it's bad advice. They hate hearing it because they don't want to move on.  If you want to try and measure this behavior of a "true" Christian, in the vernacular you used the word, it is actually their ability to simply forgive someone for what they perceive as bad behavior towards them, and move on.

When it comes to the last bolded sentence, you realize that it would include you, correct?

Of course no person is 100% innocent. As I stated in the beginning of my post, my ex-wife and her parents situation was just THREE of the TEN people I have been betrayed by (all Christians) over the course of 25 years.

The person who witnessed to me 25 years ago betrayed me also, this was done back in 1997. I "moved on" as you emphasized. During this period I was betrayed by nine other Christians, all in different time periods. Some in the 1990's, some in the 2000's and the remaining in the 2010's, with the last ones being in 2016. I moved on after each betrayal.

As far as the last bolded sentence, it would include me, I realize that. I never betrayed another Christian. When I offended another Christian, I would ask for forgiveness, repent and not repeat that offense.

There is big difference if you said something to your spouse that hurt them vs. divorcing them for no Biblical reason. If you tell your spouse to "shut-up" because you were angry but later ask for forgiveness and don't repeat that behavior, is one thing. Walking out on a marriage with no warning and no attempt to reconcile and never give a reason WHY you walked out and refused Godly healing and counseling and filing for divorce with no Biblical cause, is a totally different thing.

The concept and statement I made is pretty simple. Christians betray other Christians. That is a fact that cannot be escaped and confronting that fact is something each church should do. My "beef" is that this false narrative that Christians don't sin and betray other Christians is just that, a false narrative that in turn does more damage than good. One will never know how many Christians stop attending church, stop trusting other Christians, etc. all because of this false narrative that is espoused in churches in order to keep "seekers" from turning away and to keep attendance numbers up.

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by DesertSW

[DesertSW]

3 hours ago, missmuffet said:

John 3: 15-16  that whoever believes in Him should not perish but^[a] have eternal life. ¹⁶ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

If a person is promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never eternal life to begin with, if eternal security is not true the promises of eternal life in the Bible is a lie.

We agree here. If eternal life is just a temporary promise that comes and goes with the wind, then the entire Bible is a lie and false hopes.

But the topic of OSAS is NOT what this thread is about.

This thread is about Christians betraying other Christians. It happens, and it has nothing to do with the doctrine of OSAS. It has to do with reality and that even a HS indwelt person can and does sin against others.

My problem and the topic of this thread is that churches don't like to talk about this because it is not appealing to new comers and poses a problem. It is the dark side of Christianity. The faith (Christianity) is not the problem, it's the people within it, they sin and will continue to sin even when saved. Nobody is sinless after accepting Christ. That is another fact. The problem once again is that some of the sins they commit are egregious and really hurt other Christians. 

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by DesertSW

[brakelite]

OSAS folk do not, I agree, think they can 'go out and do what they like'. However, what I think is the problem reflected in desertSW first post, that Christians do sin and betray one another is a fact that cannot be denied. And I think the reason is related to OSAS. It is, I believe, rooted in the idea that once saved the born again Christian cannot help but to sin. I have seen this idea repeatedly throughout Christian forums. That sin cannot be defeated. That God is therefore powerless to overcome. That the new life is still in some way locked into the old. The churches today are in such a mess because they are made up of people who have this defeatist attitude and therefore don't bother to resist temptation as resolutely as they should, or can, and therefore we witness the same weaknesses and sins that plague society as a whole. No wonder the world isn't interested in the church...they dont see the church as any different in lifestyle, practice, or behaviour as they experience where they are. If true full repentance, the complete forsaking of sin and wickedness, is no longer taught nor believed in the church, then we ought not be surprised that the state of things in the church is less than what we should expect of those who are meant to be following in Christ's footsteps.

[brakelite]

14 minutes ago, DesertSW said:

We agree here. If eternal life is just a temporary promise that comes and goes with the wind, then the entire Bible is a lie and false hopes.

The mistake we make is in thinking that eternal life is unconditional. Even in heaven and in the new earth our eternal existence will be dependant always on our connection to Christ. Never will we have the very same life as God...self existent. And if it will be dependant upon our connection to Christ then, how much more is it dependant upon our connection to Christ now?  

Everyone should know this....that persistent sin unrepented of disconnects us eventually to Christ, and as branches we will then be ripped from the tree and burnt.