GOD HAS NOT CAST AWAY HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL

[Guest shiloh357]

22 minutes ago, secretopossumcabal said:

The importance of Israel has ALWAYS been in their faith, not bloodline. Therefor physical Israel is Christianity, it is Christ, to be a Jew is to be a Christian, for the Israelites were Jewish because they BELIEVED. 

If there is ever another holocaust and it ever becomes illegal to be a Jew, I can guarantee that your kind will suddenly stop claiming to be Jews and will start persecuting the Jews right along with the rest of the persecutors.

[1to3]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

If there is ever another holocaust and it ever becomes illegal to be a Jew, I can guarantee that your kind will suddenly stop claiming to be Jews and will start persecuting the Jews right along with the rest of the persecutors.

That above comment Shiloh is really judging the heart of a person. and only God can do that. ( and i will leave it at that)

About the topic and whoever can reply in Christian Kindness, would be appreciated.

I appreciate this thread as it can be used as a teaching thread as long as scripture is presented in the Spirit of Christ Jesus.

We need to pray and keep prayer that Gods Truth be revealed in these threads. we need to pray for people, and not condemn them. That's God job, our job is to point to His truth with fatherly, brotherly kindness. Hostility never brings understanding quickly to the heart of a soul.

I appreciate the way Old Coot is presenting scripture. It is not condemning anybody, it is pointing to scripture.

We need to pray that the Holy Spirit of God teach through these threads and that His love is presented in a way that Gods Holy Spirit of healing growth occurs for everybody reading these threads.

I was taught long ago that the term  Jew began by meaning= faithful to God.

And God knows the heart of those that are faithful to Him from the tribe of Judah through the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Because God is Law, Truth Light (1 John ch1), He cannot bless evil , whether it is coming from a Jew or gentile. that would be going contrary to who He is.

And  through the stories of the old testament, God proves how He cannot bless disobedience and that there is always a consequence from disobedience .

God could not bless David with a Holy Temple, because there was too much blood of men on Davids hands, Even though David was loved by God. The Actions of David, did prevent the Holy Temple of God from being built? Please correct me if i am wrong, then God allowed Davids' son Solomon to build a temple, but because Solomon married so many pagan women and began adopting certain pagan belief, God neither could honor the temple in which Salomon build and it got destroyed.

And even though God did bless Solomon with great wisdom, scripture does not give the final outcome of Solomon's soul. We do not know if Solomon, even though blessed in the beginning, remained faithful to God at the end of his final years of his life on earth.

Just like with Saul, the Jewish people instead of being ruled by priests, wanted what the other heathen people had, a king, and so they went to Samuel and asked him for a king, Samuel prayed to God and was directed by God to choose Saul.  Saul had everything good for being a king, just, when he began began to reign , he began also disobeying God and stopped listening to God and took his will back in every decision he made, instead of listening to God. And the more he did that, the less God could help king Saul. So God could no longer help king Saul either. And in the end, king Sauls' rebelliousness against God, left Saul to die without God or his salvation in God.

 

Just to say from what I understand so far, is that God will honor His word, but He cannot honor sin, because He is a fixed LAW of Truth and Light, He cannot embrace evil, and His promises remain to the faithful and not the unfaithful.

For sure there exists till this day faithful Jews.

Who are the faithful Jews? they are descendants of Abraham who remained faithful to God.

As Christians ie=, anything not coming from the direct line of the faithful Jews of the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, these Christian become extension, grafted- into of the vine that God began with the first faithful ones to Him through Abraham and his line of descendants, ie faithful Jews following the line of Abram, Isaac and Jacob... the tribe of Judah.

Holy Scripture does say that he blinded some Jews because of their pride, disobedience, yet God will take off the scales from their eyes one day,( it seems that he has began to do that, with more and more Jews seeing Christ as the promised Messiah) because God did make a Holy covenant with Abraham. From my understanding God made a Holy covenant with Abraham because Abraham seeked and remained faithful to God. And God responded back to Him with His love and promises and through His line of descendants, allowed Gods only begotten Son Christ Jesus to be born and come through that faithful line.Christ Jesus, came forth, was born on earth, from the genealogical line of David on Marys' side of descendants.

So Christ Jesus was born unto earth from the line of faithful descendant of Abraham, so that Gods promises of bringing a Savior comes from that line of Judah, a faithful line to God coming from the descendant of Abraham, Issac and Jacob could be fulfilled .

So being a Jew has different interpretations,

some are ethnic, a people coming from Judea

some spiritual ie, coming from the line of Abraham, the tribe of Judah remaining faithful to God .

So God will honor His word and covenants with the Jews who remained faithful to God, no?

If not how can God honor anything who spits in his face by living against His Laws/commandments?

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2018 by 1to3

[Guest shiloh357]

51 minutes ago, 1to3 said:

That above comment Shiloh is really judging the heart of a person. and only God can do that. ( and i will leave it at that)

 

History bears out exactly what I said. 

Quote

I was taught long ago that the term  Jew began by meaning= faithful to God.

Well, you were taught wrong.  That isn't what it means.   It means "praise."

Quote

As Christians ie, anything not coming from the direct line of the faithful Jews of the line of Abraham, Christian become extension, grafted- into of the vine that God began with the first faithful ones to Him through Abraham and his line of descendants, ie faithful Jews following the line of Abram, Isaac and Jacob... the tribe of Judah.

Wrong, the Bible doesn't say that.   "Jew"  is not a theological term.   It is not redemptive term, either.   Abraham wasn't even a Jew; Abraham was a Gentile.  

Quote

 

So being a Jew has different interpretations,

some are ethnic, a people coming from Judea

some spiritual ie, coming from the line of Abraham, the tribe of Judah remaining faithful to God .

 

No, the Bible doesn't support that either.  The  "Jew" has only ONE meaning in the Bbile.  It refers only to the ethnic people known as Jews.   It has no spiritual meaning applied to Christians or the Church.

Edited May 12, 2018 by shiloh357

[1to3]

21 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

History bears out exactly what I said. 

Yes and a lot of hate came from the RCC, yet God has also saved people who belonged to the RCC.

and this topic is important as it is not really taught.

So I hope this thread can teach clearly through scripture the true meaning of what a Jew is.

21 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Quote

I was taught long ago that the term  Jew began by meaning= faithful to God.

Well, you were taught wrong.  That isn't what it means.   It means "praise."

To praise God you need some faith no? somewhere you have to be faithful to God to be able to praise Him.

21 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Quote

As Christians ie, anything not coming from the direct line of the faithful Jews of the line of Abraham, Christian become extension, grafted- into of the vine that God began with the first faithful ones to Him through Abraham and his line of descendants, ie faithful Jews following the line of Abram, Isaac and Jacob... the tribe of Judah.

Wrong, the Bible doesn't say that.   "Jew"  is not a theological term.   It is not redemptive term, either.   Abraham wasn't even a Jew; Abraham was a Gentile.  

Ok, from what i understand, there is Jew and Gentile=anything not Jewish.

Gentiles who believe in Christ Jesus are they not grafted in?

 

Romans 11:11-31

Gentiles Grafted In

¹¹ So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. ¹² Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion^[a] mean!

¹³ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry ¹⁴ in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. ¹⁵ For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? ¹⁶ If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

¹⁷ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root^[b] of the olive tree, ¹⁸ do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. ¹⁹ Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” ²⁰ That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. ²¹ For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. ²² Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. ²³ And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. ²⁴ For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The Mystery of Israel's Salvation

²⁵ Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:^[c] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. ²⁶ And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
    he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
²⁷ “and this will be my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”

²⁸ As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. ²⁹ For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. ³⁰ For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, ³¹ so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now^[d] receive mercy.

 

 

Yes Shiloh, I understand that Abraham was not Jewish, as I don't think the term existed then right?

So through Abraham's descendants, Isaac and Jacob , where they not from the tribe of Judah? (please answer me in kindness, I learn better that way.)

 

21 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Quote

As Christians ie, anything not coming from the direct line of the faithful Jews of the line of Abraham, Christian become extension, grafted- into of the vine that God began with the first faithful ones to Him through Abraham and his line of descendants, ie faithful Jews following the line of Abram, Isaac and Jacob... the tribe of Judah.

Wrong, the Bible doesn't say that.   "Jew"  is not a theological term.   It is not redemptive term, either.   Abraham wasn't even a Jew; Abraham was a Gentile.  

Yes I agree Abraham was not a Jew, Abraham was however the first to look to ONE GOD instead of the pagan beliefs of the time. Abraham ,he began the line of descendant...Isaac and Jacob... that would become the line of Judah, hence Jews no?

 

Edited May 12, 2018 by 1to3

[Guest shiloh357]

15 minutes ago, 1to3 said:

 

So I hope this thread can teach clearly through scripture the true meaning of what a Jew is.

To praise God you need some faith no? somewhere you have to be faithful to God to be able to praise Him.

 

The meaning of Jew is "praise"  not "faithful to God."  Those are not interchangeable terms.   Look it up and when you discover that it means, "praise," please just accept that you got it wrong and stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

 

Quote

 

Ok, from what i understand, there is Jew and Gentile=anything not Jewish.

Gentiles who believe in Christ Jesus are they not grafted in?

 

They are not grafted into the Jews.   Grafting doesn't change a Gentile into a Jew.  When a branch from a wild olive tree is grafted into a cultivated olive tree, it is grafted in at the root, not the trunk.  It is not grafted into any of the other branches.    The wild branch is still a wild branch; it's DNA didn't change.  It can still be grafted back into the previous tree. Grafted-in Gentiles are still Gentiles.  And that is okay.   It's okay to be a faithful, Jesus-loving Gentile.  God made you a Gentile, so it's okay and there is no reason to become Jewish.

"Grafting" is not a metaphor for salvation.   Paul is talking about Gentile participation in the blessings of Israel.  They are participate as Gentiles, but share in the blessings of Israel. They don't become Israel, nor do they become Jews.  They are still Gentiles.

It is not a sin to be a Gentile, and Jews are not superior or more spiritual than Gentiles.   "Jew" is not a spiritual term used to refer to the Church or Christians.   Same with Israel.  Those are national/ethnic terms, not theological or spiritual terms.  You really need to some better study on this matter. 

Quote

 

Yes I agree Abraham was not a Jew, Abraham was however the first to look to ONE GOD instead of the pagan beliefs of the time. Abraham ,he began the line of descendant...Isaac and Jacob... that would become the line of Judah, hence Jews no?

 

The problem is that being a spiritual descendent of Abraham doesn't make one "spiritually Jewish."   If it did, then Gentiles need to saved from being what God created them to be.    Why would God make you a Gentile and then have to save from being a Gentile and turn you into Jew?   That is completely bizarre theology and is not supported by the Scripture.

Edited May 12, 2018 by shiloh357

[1to3]

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

please just accept that you got it wrong and stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

 

I have no problem when I got it wrong, I am looking to understand better .

Abraham came eight generations after the great flood, his father was Terah, descendent of shem, Noahs son.

As i understood, Abraham was faithful to God. through Abraham was born the Jewish race through the line of his sons Jacob who in turn had a son name Judah and from their came the line of Judah.

I found on you tube a great short little teaching movie on the life of Abraham  you can also find it by googling the following title:

Abraham - A Man of Faith

Shiloh said"The meaning of Jew is "praise"  not "faithful to God."  Those are not interchangeable terms.   Look it up and when you discover that it means, "praise," please just accept that you got it wrong and stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes."

Ok, that's fine with me,I guess i had figured that Abraham being the first man of great faith that God chose to bless him because of his great faith in God and bless also all Abraham's descendants, and that Abraham was also the first to circumcise his son that he also was the first man who became Jewish.You disagree.

But here i found a you tube video of a Jewish teacher mentioning and explaining why Abraham was the first Jew. Is he wrong as well? you can find this you tube teaching video by the following title.:
 

Why is Abraham The First Jew and Why is Jerusalem the Capital of Israel, so called!!!!

to so i looked up what you said :

Judah means "praise", or "to praise".

 

Gen 29:35 (NIV) She conceived again, and when she gave birth to a son she said, "This time I will praise the Lord." So she named him Judah...

It is pronounced "Yehuda". It is where the word "Jew" comes from. Many of the other tribes were scattered or rejected by God, and so the Levites, Benjamin, and Judah were collectively called the "Jews": those left to "praise God" on earth. This praise/Jew double meaning runs throughout scripture...

Ro 2:29 (NIV) No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. Ro 15:11 (NIV) And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."

 

Interestingly, it is translated into English in the New Testament as the name "Judas". Judas was the representative "Jew", or un-Jew... as the case turned out.

 

Luke 17:17-18 (NIV) Jesus asked, "Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?"

 

This is a prophetic parable of what was to occur in general.

 

John 1:11 (KJV) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 

Thus, the contrast is made:

 

John 8:39-47 (NIV) "Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," [note the accusation here towards Jesus] they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Rev 3:9 (NIV) [Jesus, again:] "'Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie--I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you."

Joel 2:28 (NIV) "'And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people...'"

Lu 3:8 (NIV) "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Mt 21:16 (NIV) "Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him. "Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read, "'From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise'?"

Lu 10:21 (NIV) At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure."

Ps 51:15 (NIV) O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise.

Ps 71:23 (NIV) My lips will shout for joy when I sing praise to you-- I, whom you have redeemed.

Heb 13:15 (NIV) Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name.

http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_judah.html

 

 

 

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

They are not grafted into the Jew

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

You really need to some better study on this matter. 

For sure I need to continue in my bible studies,  bu I never said that either. You may be mistaken me for Opossum., but I am happy you are clarifying the meaning a little bette, and also that i looked it up for more clarity.

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

They are participate as Gentiles, but share in the blessings of Israel. They don't become Israel, nor do they become Jews.  They are still Gentiles.

Again, I never said differently, as i agree with this, again i think you got me confused with member Opossum on this one. But that's ok as it the explanation that counts and i am not disagreeing with it.

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

  Why would God make you a Gentile and then have to save from being a Gentile and turn you into Jew?   That is completely bizarre theology and is not supported by the Scripture.

I believe jews don't need to become Gentiles as Christ Jesus is their promised messiah and neither should Christians become gentiles ie non beleivers in Christ Jesus, a they both are looking to the same ONE GOD.

But Jews who do not believe Christ Jesus to be the promised Messiah , still view Christians as gentiles ie= not part with them in Gods plan of salvation. ( and here i think this is where Opossum quoted from the Talmud, what some Jews think of Christians.)

The difference is that some Jews accepted the new Testament covenant of Christ Jesus being their promised messiah like Christ Jesus disciples and others Jews, as being the promised messiah while others did not. And as Paul says God blinded them for a time, so that salvation will come not only for the Jews but also the Gentiles=anyone NOT Jewish.  Paul a former Sadducee Jew and Luc a Greek gentile, when they both accepted Christ Jesus  they both received Gods plan of salvation , no lesser or better, but the same.

 

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The problem is that being a spiritual descendant of Abraham doesn't make one "spiritually Jewish."   If it did, then Gentiles need to saved from being what God created them to be.    Why would God make you a Gentile and then have to save from being a Gentile and turn you into Jew?   That is completely bizarre theology and is not supported by the Scripture.

again I never said that, but I may have thought that jew and Christians in Christ are the same? i think you got me mixed up with Opossum point of view maybe?

But I am still happy for this dialogue as i know it is benefiting others reading this as well and hopefully clarifying things.

Like perhaps some are confused about  the meaning of Israel, as its not only a nation but God gave that name to Jacob after He fought with Jacob at Penial.

Genesis 32:22-32

Jacob Wrestles With God

²² That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. ²³ After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. ²⁴ So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. ²⁵ When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. ²⁶ Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

²⁷ The man asked him, “What is your name?”

“Jacob,” he answered.

²⁸ Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,^[a] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

²⁹ Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”

But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

³⁰ So Jacob called the place Peniel,^[b] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

³¹ The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,^[c] and he was limping because of his hip. ³² Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.

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Something i found that could helpful to anyone reading this in understanding a little better

Why is the Nation of Israel called Israel and not Abraham?

Is there a biblical, or otherwise extra-biblical, explanation of how the nation of Israel came to be known as Israel instead of Abraham?

I know you could make cases for arguing that it makes more logical sense for the name Israel or the name Abraham to have come to be associated with the people (and I guess the land), however is there a specific reason?

 

God did promise the land of Canaan to Abraham. For example God says to Abram (Abraham) in Genesis 17:8:

The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.

However, a few verses earlier, God said that Abraham would be "the father of many nations":

Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you." (Genesis 17:3-6)

Israel (another name for Jacob) was only one of those nations. It would not give due respect to Abraham, the father of many nations, to name only one of those nations after him. For a chart of the nations descended from Abraham based on the names of his descendants in the Bible, see The Genealogy of Abraham.

Isaac was the father of two nations, the Israelites and the Edomites, so the land of Israel could not be named after him, either.

Jacob, or Israel, was the father of a single nation composed of twelve tribes. In the Bible story, that nation conquered and adopted as its homeland Canaan and the transjordan valley. So his name is applied to that nation rather than the name of Abraham or Isaac.

According to the biblical story, later, when that nation began to fall away from faithfulness to God, it broke up into two kingdoms, Judah and Israel, each of which acted as a separate nation. However, the promise to the Patriarchs--Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob--is seen as fulfilled in the reign of King David, under whom a unified nation of Israel reached its greatest extent.

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/39676/why-is-the-nation-of-israel-called-israel-and-not-abraham

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Question: "What is Zion? What is Mount Zion? What is the biblical meaning of Zion?"

Answer: Psalm 87:2–3 says, “The Lord loves the gates of Zion / more than all the other dwellings of Jacob. / Glorious things are said of you, / city of God.” According to this verse, Zion is synonymous with city of God, and it is a place that God loves. Zion is Jerusalem. Mount Zion is the high hill on which David built a citadel. It is on the southeast side of the city.

The word Zion occurs over 150 times in the Bible. It essentially means “fortification” and has the idea of being “raised up” as a “monument.” Zion is described both as the city of David and the city of God. As the Bible progresses, the word Zion expands in scope and takes on an additional, spiritual meaning.

The first mention of Zion in the Bible is 2 Samuel 5:7: “David captured the fortress of Zion—which is the City of David.” Zion was originally an ancient Jebusite fortress in the city of Jerusalem. After David’s conquest of the fortress, Jerusalem became a possession of Israel. The royal palace was built there, and Zion/Jerusalem became the seat of power in Israel’s kingdom..

When Solomon built the temple in Jerusalem, the meaning of Zion expanded further to include the temple area (Psalm 2:6; 48:2, 11–12; 132:13). This is the meaning found in the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:6, “Come, let us go up to Zion, to the LORD our God.” In the Old Testament Zion is used as a name for the city of Jerusalem (Isaiah 40:9), the land of Judah (Jeremiah 31:12), and the nation of Israel as a whole (Zechariah 9:13).

The word Zion is also used in a theological or spiritual sense in Scripture. In the Old Testament Zion refers figuratively to Israel as the people of God (Isaiah 60:14). In the New Testament, Zion refers to God’s spiritual kingdom. We have not come to Mount Sinai, says the apostle, but “to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem” (Hebrews 12:22). Peter, quoting Isaiah 28:16, refers to Christ as the Cornerstone of Zion: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame” (1 Peter 2:6).

Mount Zion as a geographical area is currently the center of much dispute. The Bible is clear that, one day, Zion will be the sole possession of the Lord Jesus, and Zion—the nation and the city—will be restored. “Awake, awake, / Clothe yourself in your strength, O Zion; / Clothe yourself in your beautiful garments, / O Jerusalem, the holy city; / For the uncircumcised and the unclean / Will no longer come into you” (Isaiah 52:1). And “the children of your oppressors will come bowing before you; / all who despise you will bow down at your feet / and will call you the City of the LORD, / Zion of the Holy One of Israel” (Isaiah 60:14).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Zion.html

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I must admit, that coming to understand the meaning of Jew, Israel, Zion, and what they represent, is a bit complex. I am pretty sure that if one questioned a lot of Christians on this subject matter, they would not all necessary know all the answers, but that does not take away that they are saved in Christ Jesus. As we keep studying His Word through the help of the Holy spirit of God guiding us, we learn and we grow in faith.

I have learned things step by step through the years. It was only a couple of years ago that I read about the fight between God and Jacob, and that there is where the name Israel first appeared.

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to be clear I do not believe in replacement theology.

Question: "What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"

Answer: Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. Among the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel are the church has replaced Israel (replacement theology), the church is an expansion of Israel (covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2,000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1,900 years?

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is distinct from Israel, and the terms church and Israel are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9–11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).

Contrary to replacement theology, dispensationalism teaches that, after the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1–5).

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God’s plan for Israel. The strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1–7, where it says six times that Christ’s kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11).
https://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

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I was taught that their would be a pre-rapture before the tribulation period, but now from reading worthy boards, I do no know anymore as it also makes sense that Jesus will return in the end of the tribulation.

I personally don't know what it will be, just I am prepared to face one way or another.

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So I am not coming here to these worthy board saying i know everything about the bible. I  keep learning and discovering new things and also i keep growing in Christ Jesus.  i think that is making good use of these christian worthy boards. The problem is when we are not open to learn but just stay with a certain pattern of thinking that is in opposition to Gods Word, we loose out from growing in Him.

I think as long as people remain teachable and humble in spirit, they will grow in Christ and in His word. And that goes on both sides, the one teaching and the one receiving.

So yes its good and important  that someone take the time to explain these things, with a kind teaching spirit.

We should be here to win people to Christ and with gentleness of spirit kindly explaining through scripture what others may not know.

When you know better, you do better.

 Like  in the story of Jacob,God loves His own at any growing stage that they may be in and i think God would like his children to get along a little better so to better represent Him  and help along in His loving gentile spirit, others who may not know yet all things but have a heart for God and a teachable spirit.

in Christ Jesus Always;

1to3

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by 1to3

[secretopossumcabal]

11 hours ago, 1to3 said:

Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.

This article falls apart right here. Right off the bat, they attribute something that indicates faith, to something that indicates blood. When the truth is that our relationship with God is through FAITH and not blood, the covenant was to the faithful, not to the blood. 

You see what's happening? The creature that governs this world is trying to rip the spiritual soul of Israel out of Israel. Israel can't exist without Faith, the just shall live by faith. Can a kingdom be a kingdom without its king? A body without a head? Figures that the pharisees take offense to Christ taking the throne of David. It belongs to HIM and none shall take it from him.  

"I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him." Ezekiel 21:27

"Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "that I will punish all who are circumcised and yet uncircumcised"  Jeremiah 9:25

4"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD And remove the foreskins of your heart, Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Or else My wrath will go forth like fire And burn with none to quench it, Because of the evil of your deeds." Jeremiah 4:4

Time after time God removes the unfaithful out of Israel. Then he sends the one whom which we must have faith in to be regathered to Israel through him and HIM alone. There are no other paths, he is the beginning and the end of the matter. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, secretopossumcabal said:

This article falls apart right here. Right off the bat, they attribute something that indicates faith, to something that indicates blood. When the truth is that our relationship with God is through FAITH and not blood, the covenant was to the faithful, not to the blood. 

Wrong.   Being "chosen" isn't about salvation.   They are still God's chosen people and He has never rescinded that.   The problem with all of this is that you hate Jews as much as your brother Hitler did.   And you are desperately trying to justify your hatred of Jews by couching it in theology.

Hitler did the same thing.   He had an entire theology to justify the final solution to exterminate the Jews from the earth.   Replacement theology is a 1,700 year lie that has been the source behind those who persecuted the Jewish people. 

False Christians like you are a liability to the Kingdom of God because you promote that lie and promote persecution of the Jewish people through that lie.   Satan hates the Jews and is the source of your hatred.   He is the source of your wicked point of view and those who are truly born again will reject your wickedness and your perversion of Scripture.

 

[secretopossumcabal]

I wont respond to shiloh but because people are reading this, I'm going to tell you folks this, be very careful because Satan has already set the theme: There were fake prophets, there were fake Jews (the pharisees), there is a fake Israel (Babylon), and there will be (and have been) fake Christs (the antichrists), and therefor fake Christians. Now revelation warned you of the ones who claim they are Jews (but do lie) in Revelation 3:9. Will you place you faith in the ones that claim to be blood Jews, or in the son of man who is the true son of Abraham? (Galatians 3:16)

 

Luke 11:37-52

37 As Jesus was speaking, a Pharisee invited Him to dine with him; so He went in and reclined at the table. 38 But the Pharisee was astonished to see that Jesus did not first wash before the meal.

 

39 “Now then,” said the Lord, “you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40 You fools! Did not the One who made the outside make the inside as well? 41 But give as alms the things that are within you, and you will see that everything is clean for you.

42 Woe to you Pharisees! You pay tithes of mint and rue and every herb, but you disregard justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without neglecting the former.

43 Woe to you Pharisees! You love the chief seats in the synagogues and the greetings in the marketplaces. 44 Woe to you! For you are like unmarked graves, which men walk across without even noticing.”

45 One of the experts in the law told Him, “Teacher, when You say these things, You insult us as well.”

46 “Woe to you as well, experts in the law!” He replied. “You weigh men down with heavy burdens, but you yourselves will not lift a finger to lighten their load.

47 Woe to you! You build tombs for the prophets, but it was your fathers who killed them. 48 So you are witnesses who consent to the deeds of your fathers: They killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles; some of them they will kill and others they will persecute.’

50 As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, all of it will be charged to this generation.

52 Woe to you experts in the law! For you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

Matthew 27:24-25

24 When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but that instead a riot was breaking out, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “You shall bear the responsibility.” 25 All the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”

I tell you folks this: Trust in Jesus, that's ALL you have to do. Only through him do the Children of Abraham exist. That is what it means to be a Jew, revelation has already warned you about the ones that claim to be Jews. Be on your guard, not all is at it seems, it was a conspiracy against Christ back then, now it is a conspiracy against Christians. No servant is greater than their master. 

[enoob57]

24 minutes ago, secretopossumcabal said:

I wont respond to shiloh but because people are reading this, I'm going to tell you folks this, be very careful because Satan has already set the theme: There were fake prophets, there were fake Jews (the pharisees), there is a fake Israel (Babylon), and there will be (and have been) fake Christs (the antichrists), and therefor fake Christians. Now revelation warned you of the ones who claim they are Jews (but do lie) in Revelation 3:9. Will you place you faith in the ones that claim to be blood Jews, or in the son of man who is the true son of Abraham? (Galatians 3:16)

I tell you folks this: Trust in Jesus, that's ALL you have to do. Only through him do the Children of Abraham exist. That is what it means to be a Jew, revelation has already warned you about the ones that claim to be Jews. Be on your guard, not all is at it seems, it was a conspiracy against Christ back then, now it is a conspiracy against Christians. No servant is greater than their master. 

The problem with what you are saying is spiritualizing that which God did not! Note: a rethink on your approach to God's Word both in creative format and then written format upon which He verified this truth through parables... It takes a great deal of work to be in the light as God is in The Light... do the work, keep the distinctions God has set forth in His Word, and proclaim that truth only! We are to assess the spiritual nature of all that comes to us by His Word both creative and written =for they are not in disunity! Shiloh knows this and proclaims as such, yet you are rejecting him in this effort and is quite telling to the rest of us who do also this work...