Just How Close is the RAPTURE?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Down goes another false imagination of Mr. mad

Praise Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, our Lord and Saviour

VERY VERY good point. You have just proven that HE MUST come twice more. Thanks!

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Jesus also said this: 

*[[Mat 24:43]] KJV* But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. [44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Jesus is essentially saying that if the people [of God] knew when the judgment of God [coming like any unexpected thief]  was going to come,  that the house of God would be full.   By believing and proclaiming the unexpected judgment of God [in the rapture] people are moved to serve God out of fear, rather than love.   By proclaiming "you better get right because you might get left behind"  has been the mantra of pretrib.  I see it all the time in defense of pretrib trib:   "the rapture is when Jesus comes to get the righteous".  It is not the righteous that Jesus will come for,  but those, through faith and patience, who will inherit the promises of God.   Condemnation of those who don't agree with your (my) point of view is a manifest token of a salvation based on fear and/ or works.  Did you notice the (therefore)  exhortation in verse 44?   Be ye ALSO ready.   Those who are living in fear of the unexpected judgment of God are setting themselves up to be ill-prepared for that day when Jesus comes like a thief. 

 Blessings

The PuP 

 

I am not sure I understand. I firmly believe that Jesus could come tonight. but I am not in fear of this or in fear of Him. I know whom I have believed! I know my sins are under His blood. 

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Down goes another false imagination of Mr. mad

Praise Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, our Lord and Saviour

Hi Steve,

`Every eye shall see Him...`  that is every person who is on the earth at that time. The Body of Christ is certainly NOT on the earth at that time, as God`s word shows us. Remember we need to place every individual scripture in context with all of scripture.

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Around the Russian war? By that I'm going to assume you are referring to the Ezekiel 38: - 39: invasion (Gog / Magog)? If so, I can't prove it but I definitely agree. I personally suspect it will occur prior to the signing of a peace agreement with the many. If that's correct, that tells me it will happen before the tribulation. What's happening and who's in Syria, and the actions of Turkey, Sudan and Libya that would make anyone think the timing is ever so near? Bible prophecy is unfolding perfectly right before our very own eyes to witness. There has never been a convergence of "everything" prophetic coming on like birth pangs. The world is not falling apart, it's falling into place ~ Jan Markell.

Luke 21:28 (KJV) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Key words: begin - up - nigh.

I think of it this way. The Bible states Israel will be burning these weapons of the Gog / Magog invasion for seven years. At mid tribulation (3.5 year point) Israel will flee for their lives from the Antichrist when he enters the Temple declaring himself god. So at a minimum, Israel has to start burning those weapons for fuel at least 3.5 years prior to the start of the tribulation. Some say it will only be the Jews that flee and the rest left will continue burning them, but I don't personally buy that idea. 

Hi Dennis,

Well long time since June when I posted that. Actually the beginning of our Big trip around Aussie. So....I agree with you. Now many people have been taught that the Lord`s coming for the believers is imminent, however God`s word tells us that He will come when He has matured His Body to -

`...the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.`  (Eph. 4: 13)

And the last great truth to be clarified by the Holy Spirit to bring us to that maturity is....where we are headed. There is a great push to get people to believe we are going up and then coming back to earth or going through the trib, and staying on the earth, etc all earth focussed.

The truth is...the overcomers inheritance is with the Lord on His throne in the third heaven. And as the Apostle Paul says, `Let no one stop you from holding fast to the Head,` (Col. 2: 19) and `press towards the goal for the prize of the `on top` calling of God in Christ Jesus.`  (Phil. 3: 14)

more thoughts, Marilyn. 

 

 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Here are the verses: 

*[[Mat 24:43]] KJV* But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. [44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Notice,  first what Jesus didn't say.  If you (the Goodman) knew that the thief was coming,  you would watch.   The certainty of Jesus's return is without question going to happen.   It's not a question of IF,  but of when.   Jesus said, if he knew WHICH(what) watch the thief was going to come,  he would have WATCHED.   Writing this from a hindsight perspective (had known... would have watched)  confirms that this is not about IF he comes,  but WHEN.   So Jesus's command to watch, [and it's not a suggestion to watch,]  concerns you (the hearer)   knowing the when, [meaning WHICH watch] of his return. 

Because Jesus told US to watch,  "Which watch"  then means that we will know the times & seasons of his return.   Coming like the thief means that you don't know which watch.  We know the times and seasons that will precede his coming because Jesus told us what events to be specifically watching for.   Are you with me so far?   Getting This next point depends on if you got that last one. 

Verse 44 again: 

*[[Mat 24:44]] KJV* Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Because we obey the command to watch,  this is the means by which we know the times and seasons of his return.   Until all those signs come to pass (in the O.D.) his return will not be imminent, and until then,  we can (and should)  know that it's not (imminent).   So,  when Jesus says (in v.44)  "in such an hour as you think not", we know that it has nothing to do with Jesus coming at an unexpected hour [because we were told to watch and what to watch for].  But we do know that it still prompts the need to be ready [also].  The events that precede his return are what prompts the need to be ready.   That tells me that what Jesus is referring to in v.44 is that no man, not even the Son, nor the angels,  can fathom the severity of that hour.   The words "no man knows the day or the hour" follows "heaven and earth passing away" in both Matthew and Mark's gospels. 

So, if anyone is expecting Jesus to return in imminent fashion,  I can say with certainty that you are not watching for the signs of his return, and will probably not be ready for those times that precedes his return.   Also, because watching means that we know that his return is not imminent,  it does not mean that we [now]  know when his return will take place.  If you were to notify a group of church people that the return of Jesus was not in any ways about to occur,  a significant number,  if not a majority, would be absent from church in short order.   Without a recurrent reminder of the "imminency" of Christ's return,  churches would be greatly diminished in number.   Why? The fearfulness of judgment would be absent from their hearts.   One only has to look at the aftereffects of 9-11 to see how many people were in church in the days that followed,  and how that fear quickly subsided and subsequently left the church,   to see the truth of what I say.   What is the primary source of that judgmental fear?  The teaching of raptural imminency!   How do Christians get around serving God out of fear? 

How does Satan sedate the judgmental fear of God in someone who has received the knowledge of the truth?  By preaching God's acceptance of the wilful sinner.  [Hint, hint: it's (not) okay to sin].

Scripture says that willful sinners will fall into the judgmental hands of God.   

*[[Heb 10:26]] KJV* For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.   It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.  

There is an inextricable link between imminency and OSAS in the minds of many who do not have Christ in their hearts.   God will prove those who are worthy of the kingdom: 

*[[2Th 1:4]] KJV* . . . we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Blessings

The PuP 

Do you personally think we are in "the season" of His coming? Are you expecting HIM? Or are you expecting something else to come first?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

We will enter the times of his coming,  when the sacrifices resume on temple mount.  The time (year) of his return will come with the completion of the temple.   The season will coincide with the feasts of the Lord.  Judgment will begin with the Jewish people.  He that sins in the law will be judged by the law. 

Blessings

The PuP 

I think the scripture is clear that He will come the next time, FOR His saints, before any judgment. Judgment is what those under the altar at the 5th seal were asking. They were told they would have to wait for judgment until the last martyr killed as they were killed - as church age martyrs. What event will make the last church age martyr? I believe the pretrib rapture will END the church age and the martyr just before the rapture will be that one the Lord is looking for the final martyr of this age. John then begins the time of Judgement at the 6th seal with His wrath and THE DAY.

The temple, on the other hand, will not have to be finished, by scripture, until just before the midpoint of the week - the week that begins with the 7th seal.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

The rapture is the revealing of Christ:

*[[2Th 1:7]] KJV* And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

And in verse 8 we have a parallel passage to when and why the man of sin is revealed: 

*[[2Th 1:8]] KJV* In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

*[[2Th 2:11]] KJV* And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So what we have here is not a judgment upon the Jews,  per se, but upon all those that reject the truth of the gospel.   I have shown you that judgment upon the Jews will come first,  before it comes upon the Gentiles, Romans 1,2.  And I havealso shown you that the great tribulation is the judgment upon the Jews.  If you are to heed the scriptures,  you must conclude by these two things,  that the times of great tribulation must precede the rapture.   I can't make you believe it.   That is up to you. 

Blessings

The PuP 

There  is no "flaming fire" in 1 thes. 4. Neither to I find "mighty angels" in His 1 Thes. 4 coming. Neither shall "every eye see Him" in His 1 Thes. 4 Coming. No, in this coming FOR His saints, He will remain Hidden in a cloud.  

You see, I simply cannot fit every scripture of a "coming" into a single coming. Some people seem to think they can, but I cannot. I am convinced there remains TWO comings: one FOR His saints, just before the start of THE DAY and one 7 plus years later WITH His saints and with His angels where every eye WILL see Him. It will be this third coming (Rev. 19) where He will take vengeance. 

I will agree, when He comes with flaming fire for vengeance, it will be for all who have rejected Him. 

Romans 2

⁹ Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

¹⁰ But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

¹¹ For there is no respect of persons with God.

I agree; to the Jew first.

"The great tribulation is judgment upon the Jews." I think what you are saying is that the great image that all will be forced to worship, and the mark, without which no man can buy or sell (the very things that will cause this great tribulation) will be only in Israel or perhaps in the Middle East (Where the Jews are?) 

If this is what you are saying, I must disagree - because I read where the Beast will deceive the entire world and the entire world will wonder after Him.  I am also convinced that some of the Trumpets and vial events will be world wide. God may well start with the Jews, but God's wrath will come upon ALL who have rejected Jesus Christ.  AGain, the Jews and Hebrews may be His main focus - to bring them to a place of accepting their Messiah - but when all the seas turn to blood, it is going to be world wide. 

If you are to heed the scriptures,  you must conclude by these two things,  that the times of great tribulation must precede the rapture.  Now it seems you have gone from exegesis to human reasoning. We cannot determine this from human reasoning! Especially not when the actual scriptures prove otherwise. 

Sorry, but Matthew did not get a revelation of Paul's rapture - ONLY PAUL received such a revelation. Therefore we must look to Paul for the TIMING of His rapture. When we do, we will find it will come just before the Day of the Lord and just before God's wrath begins. when we compare with Revelation we see that His wrath begins (and the Day begins) at the 6th seal - before the book can even be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments. 

Then we discover that "the tribulation" does not begin until the 30 minutes of silence at the 7th seal, putting the rapture BEFORE the 70th week. Therefore I must disagree with you. 

 

[iamlamad]

49 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I am confused by your first 2 paragraphs.   Two comings: 

1. For  the saints, (rapture) 

2. With the saints (2nd coming).

You say 2 Thess 1:4 is FOR the saints but is not the rapture.  Please explain. 

The PuP  

The scriptures show us two more comings our Our Lord:

First He comes FOR His saints, [Paul's rapture] as shown in 1 Thes. 4 & 5, to remove us just before His wrath by taking us to heaven.  (Just before the 6th seal)

Seven plus years after this coming, He will come again as shown in Rev. 19 WITH His saints and with His angels to the battle of Armageddon. 

Some unknown time after His coming as shown in Rev. 19, He will send His angels to gather together His elect (Jews and Hebrews) from both heaven and earth and bring them all back to Israel.  This is the gathering shown in Matthew 24. 

I hope this is more clear now. His next coming will be FOR His saints and we call this coming the rapture.  You may disagree: many people do.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

What is clear is that you don't understand the gathering of the children of Israel.   You admit that you have no scripture in Rev to support you view.   The flaming fire of 2 Thess 1 does not refer to his vengeance,  per se, but the angels themselves: 

*[[Heb 1:7]] KJV* And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

The coming of the angels is found in the parables of the tares/ wheat and the gathering net. 

*[[Mat 13:41]] KJV* The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

*[[Mat 13:49]] KJV* So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

As I have said earlier,  the seals & trumpets are judgments upon the people and land of Israel.   And who blows the 7 trumpets,  but 7 angels.  John also tells us this about the 7 candlesticks:

*[[Rev 1:20]] KJV* The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

It is also clear that you don't understand 2 Thess 1 where it says that the revealing of Jesus will be what brings rest to the church.   Our eternal rest comes at the time of the rapture,  not 7 years later. 

Blessings

The PuP

 

It is amazing reading after others just how much I don't "understand." I would never have known but for all your help! However, I STILL disagree. 

For example, when one vial turns all fresh water into blood, do you imagine that is ONLY fresh water in Israel? When God turns The seas into blood, do you think that is only in Israel? 

What did John write?

Revelation 3:10

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

Therefore I disagree. I also disagree with your idea of rest. Our rest will not be complete until judgment comes and wickedness is destroyed.  I am sorry to disagree, but when Jesus comes as shown in 1 Thes. 4, where do you see any vengeance or judgment? It is coming for His beloved Bride. 

 

When He comes to WAR, as shown in Rev. 19, then He is coming for vengeance. 

PuP, are you trying to fit His TWO future comings into ONE future coming? 

[Marilyn C]

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory and ALL THE HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM,...`   (Matt. 25: 31)

`...seven angels ....clothed in pure bright linen....` (Rev. 15: 6) Angels are also described wearing pure bright linen, as they are HOLY.

The army that comes with the Lord to deliver Israel and bring judgment upon the world`s armies, ARE HOLY ANGELS  as the Lord Himself has told us.

Marilyn.