Just How Close is the RAPTURE?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

"It is amazing reading after others just how much I don't "understand." I would never have known but for all your help! However, I STILL disagree. "

For example, when one vial turns all fresh water into blood, do you imaginethat is ONLY fresh water in Israel? When God turns The seas into blood, do you think that is only in Israel? 

You are grasping at straws with total irrelevance.   I have not even mentioned the vials,  nor said that the vials applied to Israel. 

 

You need to heed the words of Rev 3:10.  All means all.   But keep does not mean to be removed.   Besides that he is talking to one of His angels,  the Angel of Philadelphia,  that will come with Jesus at his revelation. 

 

If you want to believe that being clothed with immortality does not constitute eternal rest,  go right ahead. 

 

Besides the text in 1 Thess 1, 

 

*[[Luk 17:29]] KJV* But the SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. [30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed/apokalupto.

 

*[[Heb 9:28]] KJV* So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

There is only one revealing of Jesus... Two comings.   The apocalypse is the revelation of Jesus at the rapture to all the world.   

 

You might want to read Rev 19 again.   ALL the armies of heaven that come with Jesus are clothed in fine linen, which is the righteousness OF THE SAINTS. 

 

*[[Rev 19:14]] KJV* And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

There is no mention or even a hinting of angels coming with him.   Besides,  the 7 vials are the fullness/ completeness of the wrath of God,  and are over and done with when Jesus comes from heaven.   He is not coming in wrath,  but to rule. 

 

*[[Rev 19:16]] KJV* And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

Blessings

the PuP

You are right, you did not mention the vials per se: Here is what I was thinking of:   "have also shown you that the great tribulation is the judgment upon the Jews."  

The reason I said what I did is very simple, the trumpets AND vials are inside the 70th week or "trib." The days of GT you did mention - just where are those days in Revelation? Do you know? If we look in chapter 15 we see the first of those beheaded during those days of GT arriving in heaven. So the days of GT upon the earth will begin somewhere in chapter 14 and go into chapter 16. 

My point is, during that time of the week, chapters 14 through 16, will be days of God's wrath, days of Satan's wrath and days of GT all at the same time. So ANYONE on earth at that time will experience God's wrath and Satan's wrath. I am guessing your meaning on "the great tribulation" is the last half of the week? If so, that would certainly include chapters 14 through 16.

 The apocalypse is the revelation of Jesus at the rapture to all the world.    Please explain this statement.

There is only one revealing of Jesus... Two comings.  Please explain this statement.

I am sure Angels can wear white linen also. 

Matthew 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

I am quite sure this is His coming as shown in Rev. 19. Do you not think Angels can be in His army? It does say "armies" plural.  Why would they NOT come with Him to the Battle of Armageddon? 

 

I think when Jesus returns to battle, He will very much have anger: His own creation trying to destroy Him!

 

Isaiah 63 King James Version (KJV)

63 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

² Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

³ I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

⁴ For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

At least some of the commentaries claim this to be Jesus - and it seems to be so. It is the "Day of vengeance." 

Rev. 19  ¹⁵ And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Again it sounds very much like Jesus Christ has wrath as He comes.

It seems we don't agree on much as far as End times, but I need clarification on those two things.  

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by iamlamad

[Marilyn C]

You are adding to scripture there bro.

[Marilyn C]

15 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

The bible maintains consistency, concerning the return of Jesus,  in regards to 

1. With angels, 

2. With clouds

3. With glory, 

4. With rewards,

5. With Israel,

6. With the church,

7. In defining, 

A. Parousia, 

B. epiphaneia, 

C. apocalypse. 

It is the application of  the thematic schemes of man,  that destroys that consistency presented in scripture and subtracts from its truths. 

Blessings

The PuP 

Care to have scriptures for your numbers?

[Marilyn C]

2 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Let's start with a basic question.   I'm not really interested in specifics,  (but you can be if you want), but a simple yes or no answer. 

 

Hi Pup,

Well...God is very interested in specifics. The details of the Body of Christ being caught away and the details of the Lord`s coming to deliver Israel and bring judgment upon the nations, are very different. The purpose of each relating to the Lord and His purposes are also very different.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I didn't forbid you from giving specifics.   Feel free.   You ask for scripture.   I am just looking for a starting point.   Feel free to also expound on step 2.  Just don't get things to far sidetracked. 

Blessings

The PuP 

Ok, 1. with angels.  2. the clouds. 6. with the Church.

 

God the Father sends Jesus, (Acts 3: 20 & 21) with those who had been asleep in Him, to gather the rest of the Body of Christ, and take them to the third heaven where they will rule and reign with Him. This is when the Body of Christ comes to maturity before the tribulation.

`Even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus......then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..` (1 Thess. 4: 14 & 17)

 

After the great tribulation the Lord will come with His angelic army to deliver Israel and judge the world`s armies and the nations of the world.

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him..` (Matt. 25: 31)

`When the Lord is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...and from the GLORY of His power.` (2 Thess. 2: 7)

 

Note: `clouds` are symbolic of the Lord`s glory, and is emanating from Him in both events.

 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

15 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 

Hi Pup,

I believe God when He says very clearly that at different times the Lord will come for 1. The Body of Christ and 2. Israel and the Nations.

1. Jesus will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Him and gather those who are alive, all together - purpose: the Body of Christ.

2. Jesus will bring with Him His angelic army to bring vengeance upon the rebellious - purpose: Israel and the nations. 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I believe you misunderstand what is said.   I didn't say that there is only one coming for the combined gathering of Israel and the church.   I said that there is consistency in their teaching, i.e., they do not contradict each other. 

But in regards to Jesus coming with angels, or glory,  or clouds,  these all refer to the one and same event,  occurring at the rapture.   Outside of Rev 19, we know vey little of the actual event of his return.   In that account,  we find no angels,  nor clouds,  mentioned there.   

 

Hi Pup,

Hope we can get a bit more clarification, bro. and not misunderstanding. Let`s start with this scripture that you posted -

 

*[[2Ti 4:1]] KJV* I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;`

 

As we need to place scripture in context with the whole of scripture we see that Paul is referring to the time when the Lord will come and judge the nations after the great tribulation.  His appearing, is His coming with His great authority and rule, (kingdom means rulership).

Matt. 25: 31 shows that the Lord will sit on the throne of His glory, meaning His great authority and judge the nations as to whether they looked after the Jews through the trib. They nations are `the quick.`

Then the dead are NOT all the dead of the world as they will be judged at the great white throne, after the thousand years, (Rev. 20: 11 - 15). The dead in 2 Tim. 4: 1 are those who were `beheaded for their witness to Jesus and the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands.` (Rev. 20: 4) They are judged worthy to rule and reign with the Lord for a thousand years, and are thus resurrected to life.

 

You also said -

`Outside of Rev 19, we know vey little of the actual event of his return.`

Actually God`s word tell us quite a lot regarding that time and in great detail also. Perhaps something to look into.

 

regards, Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 Lets look at his "appearing", and his kingdom.   The word for appearing,  epiphaneia. 

Epiphaneia:
 Verse list:
1Ti 6:14 KJV That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Paul is speaking to Christians,  concerning appearance to the righteous... The church,  AT THE RAPTURE. 

2Ti 1:10 KJV But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

This is a historical appearance,  not a future one in any way. 

2Ti 4:8 KJV Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

This is referring to those that loves his appearance who will be given crowns on that day.   I don't see how this could be anything other than the rapture of the church. 

Tit 2:13 KJV Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Blessed hope,  & GLORIOUS appearing... The blessed hope is the hope of the Christian.   It can only be the rapture. 

2Ti 4:1 KJV I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

So when does the kingdom of Christ come? 

*[[Rev 12:10]] KJV* And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW IS  COME salvation, and strength, and THE  KINGDOM  of our God, and the power OF HIS  CHRIST: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This occurs 1260+ days before the 2nd advent,  and therefore can't be referring to the time of the 2nd advent.  Unless you want to believe that there are multiple appearings of Christ BEFORE The 2nd advent,  this too must refer to the rapture. None of these scriptures equate the epiphaneia with the 2nd advent. The only other usage of epiphaneia occurs in 2 Thess 2:8 where it connects the epiphaneia with the parousia: 

*[[2Th 2:8]] KJV* And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness(epiphaneia) of his coming:

The parousia,  likewise refers to the time when every eye shall see him: 

*[[Mat 24:26]] KJV* Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming(parousia)of the Son of man be.

There are not two parousia events,  only one.   It is the "every eye shall see" appearance of Christ that shall manifest the secret sins of the heart: 

*[[Rom 2:16]] KJV* In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

[That day refers to when judgment shall come to the Jews FIRST,  as told in Romans 1 & 2.]

*[[1Co 4:5]] KJV* Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

As difficult as Matt 25:31ff is concerning Christ sitting on the throne of HIS KINGDOM and coming with the angels,

*[[Mat 25:31]] KJV* When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Consistency of the scriptures will prove again that Christ comes with glory and the angels at the rapture: 

*[[Mat 16:27]] KJV* For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

There is nothing in 2 Tim 4:1 to the beheaded in Rev 20.  Just another misapplication and inconsistency of the pretrib view. 

Blessings

The PuP 

In the Revelation narrative, WHERE do you place the rapture?

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

It's found in two places.   It occurs DURING (in the middle times) of the judgment upon the Jews [FIRST]  found in the seals and trumpets.  [Rev 6 - 11].And as the event that initiated wrath upon the Gentiles who rejected the gospel, matching up with: [Rev 12:1ff]

*[[Luk 17:29]] KJV* But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

AND,

*[[2Th 1:8]] KJV* In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

AND,

*[[2Th 2:10]] KJV* And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

In Rev 8, we have this: 

*[[Rev 8:2ff]] KJV* And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.  And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.  And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.  And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

 

AND in Rev 12, we have: 

*[[Rev 12:1ff]] KJV* And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And finally, 

*[[Mat 24:29]] KJV* Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:*30* And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In summary,  these verses contain: 

A. Actions of Jesus and the archangel Michael

B. The trumpet

C. His 7 (holy) angels [Satan and the wicked angels have been cast out -I would dare not trust the genuineness of any angel before the time of Satan being cast out] 

D. Vengeance of(for) the saints

E.The sign in the heavens (the expectant woman) 

Much more could be said,  but I'll end with this.   You could overlay the greatly detailed picture of the time of the rapture with the children of Israel seeing the glory depart from Ezekiel 10,11 Into Matt 24:29,30 and Rev 8:

 
...

The PuP 

It's found in two places.   Wow.  Are you saying there will be two raptures for the church? 

Actually, it was ONLY PAUL who received the revelation of the rapture of the church, so only in his writings will we find the WHEN of the rapture, or WHERE in the book of Revelation.

It is not so easy in Revelation since John did not see the rapture nor write about it. However, John did SEE the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7 - JUST before the 70th week will begin with the 7th seal.  So we know that the church will be IN HEAVEN before the 70th week begins. But just WHERE in Revelation will the rapture be?

There is a good clue at the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age. They are told they will have to wait for judgment until the very last martyr killed as they were killed, as church age martyrs. In other words, they were told they would have to wait for the end of the church age before judgment would come. We know that anyway: we are in the age of grace - Judgment cannot start until this age is over. What will end this age? The rapture of the church will end this age, and then the Day of the Lord will start. And that is when Judgment comes.

Paul tells us that after the dead in Christ rise, two groups of people will get two different results: those living in the light of the gospel will get raptured as so miss the sudden destruction that will be the great earthquake at the 6th seal. On the other hand those living in darkness will get left behind and they cannot escape this earthquake - for it will be worldwide. Then Paul tells us that the earthquake will be the start of the Day of the Lord - just as if the rapture will trigger the DAY. Paul also tells us this sudden destruction earthquake will be the start of God's wrath. 

Therefore the rapture of the church must come just before the 6th seal.  There is no rapture or no coming in chapter 12. There is no coming in any of the trumpet judgments. He will come first FOR His saints, just before the 6th seal, and then He will come WITH His saints as shown in Rev. 19: Two more comings for two different reasons.

Edited October 8, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Rev 8 and 12 are not two different raptures.  The Rev 8 accounting is where it happens within the confines of judgment upon the Jews.   The Rev 12 account is specifically identified as when the male child is caught up to heaven.   Numerous passages in Corinthians, Ephesians,  and Colossians identifies the church as the body of Christ.   The sign in the heavens of the travailing woman (to give birth to the man child) is the sign of the Son of man IN HEAVEN, mentioned in Matt 24:30.  That sign appears in near simultaneous fashion as the great red dragon in heaven.   Satan 's casting out with the stars of heaven,  takes place at the 6th seal.  It is but a short time later that the first trumpet sounds.   

1 Thess 4 has the identifiers that are to take place. 

1.  Descent and shout of the Lord (from Jerusalem that shakes the heavens and the earth) , as found in Jer 25:29-30; Joel 2:11;3:16; Amos 1;2; Haggai 2:6,21.

2. Voice of the archangel Michael occurs with Satan's demise. 

3. Trump of God,  at the first trumpet sounding. 

4.Hail and vengeance, Luke 17:29-30;21:22; 2 Thess 1:4-10; 2 Thess 2:8-12.

5. Only the resurrection of the dead takes place in the twinkling of an eye.   Not the precursors mentioned in points 1 thru 3.  The earthquake that results from the resurrection is found in Rev 8:5.

Concerning the revelation of the rapture to Paul,  you are overlooking the fact the rapture IS the apocalypse,  and IS the parousia,  and IS the epiphaneia.   Your premise that there is more than one revelation exploits that idea.  [The false notion that they didn't know and were not writing about the rapture,  confirms that premise]. Until you see that,  you are deceiving yourself.   Peter, James and John all wrote and talked about the apocalypse and parousia that Jesus told them about.  

*[[Jas 5:7]] KJV* Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming(parousia)  of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

*[[Jas 5:8]] KJV* Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming(parousia) of the Lord draweth nigh.

*[[1Pe 1:7]] KJV* That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

*[[1Pe 1:13]] KJV* Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

*[[1Pe 4:13]] KJV* But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

*[[2Pe 1:16]] KJV* For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming(parousia)  of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

*[[2Pe 3:4]] KJV* And saying, Where is the promise of his coming(parousia) ? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

*[[2Pe 3:12]] KJV* Looking for and hasting unto the coming(parousia)  of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

*[[1Jn 2:28]] KJV* And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming(parousia).

Blessings

The PuP 

 

I disagree with almost every point. You can try to make two comings in our future into one coming, but it does not work. He is coming TWO more times.  The next time He will remain hidden in a cloud. Every eye will NOT see Him. Only those caught up into the cloud will see Him. 

When He comes as shown in Rev. 19, then every eye will see Him. 

The truth is, every verse of His coming or appearing does not fit with every other verse. That is why the church universal believes He will come twice more. 

Of course  there are a few that imagine one coming and try to fit every verses into that one coming.  If they wish to stay for His wrath, I guess the Lord would accommodate them. 

the rapture IS the apocalypse,  and IS the parousia,  and IS the epiphaneia  I say impossible because this theory causes conflict with the scriptures.

Edited October 8, 2018 by iamlamad