Romans 3:11-18

April 30, 2005

It is ALL His work... Salvation, Sanctification...all of it.

Exactly. Even the faith by which we believe is a gift of God.

BUT it is up to us whether or not we listen to HIS Voice.

I agree; however, I also believe those who are predestined will be saved. That's why I also believe that God presents His Grace to us as irresistible:

John 6:37

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

People who are not predestined still choose, however. They chose to sin, and in doing so they rejected God.

April 30, 2005

eople who are not predestined still choose, however. They chose to sin, and in doing so they rejected God.

Well said

Man's will is corrupt, only those on whom God displays His grace have the ability to choose positively to the Gospel. If God did not affect man, man would ALWAYS turn Christ away.

April 30, 2005

eople who are not predestined still choose, however. They chose to sin, and in doing so they rejected God.

Well said

Man's will is corrupt, only those on whom God displays His grace have the ability to choose positively to the Gospel. If God did not affect man, man would ALWAYS turn Christ away.

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Absolutely true, my friend. I don't think Arminians fully understand how bad the fall really was. Man didn't fall just a little -- he fell all the way. The relationship between God and man was cut off. Man has a choice, but he will always choose sin.

Arminians believe a man chooses God and then God gives them a new heart. You and I recognize that it has to been the other way around: God gives us a new heart and then we respond.

How do Arminians explain the conversion of Paul?

mrs · May 2, 2005

Hi everyone,

Wow, this has been a great topic!I just recently rejected Arminianism in favor of Calvinism and am still learning a great deal about it. Only recently did I realize how totally depraved man is - that his only hope is God opening his eyes.

Now, so many things make sense. Great posts, Johannes.

God bless you all.

....smiles....

other one · May 2, 2005

I have a question for the predestination people. Are you saying that God made specific people to spend eternity in hell?

Edited May 2, 2005 by other one

book_wirm · May 3, 2005

other_one asked:

"I have a question for the predestination people. Are you saying that God made specific people to spend eternity in hell?"

Unfortunately (and mind you I do NOT speak for everyone) that seems to be the case. No doubt there are very difficult doctrines in the Scripture which we struggle with, but there are also some very clear doctrines and I believe that predestination is one of those doctrines. Consider:

Proverbs 16:1, 4

The preperations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the Lord.

The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

But I do not place my focus on His Sovereign right to harden whom He will, but rather on His merciful grace that has purchased and provided salvation for many. We like free will because it makes us feel like we're in charge. Frankly, we aren't. We get upset at the idea that God would not "offer" (and I use this term as the Arminians do) salvation to everyone because that doesn't seem fair to us. Frankly, fair (or "Just" in other words) would have been to save none of us and let us all "get what we deserve". Thank God he didn't behave "fairly" toward mankind!

It is one of the paradoxes of Scripture: man is an accountable being, yet God is sovereign over all. Thank Him for His mercy, praise Him for His goodness, fear Him for His sovereignty.

In Christ,

Eric

EricH · May 3, 2005

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

Romans 9:22-23 NASB

Gerioke · May 3, 2005

Hear about the calvinist that fell down the stairs?

He got up and said"I,m glad I got that over with!"

other one · May 3, 2005

mat 20: 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

mat 22: 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Looks to me like God does the choosing

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Many are called but few are chosen......... another of the little descrepencies in the english translations that I have not figured out. The following is a closer look at this few.

Rev 7:9-10

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

NASB

other one · May 3, 2005

I'm spinning this off of a 20 page Free Will discussion that ended abrubtly when I asked this question...

"how does a Romans 3:11-18 person choose Christ, without some sort of work of the Holy Spirit to aid him in that decision?"

Because the question went unanswered I'm asking it again, and maybe I'll get some response.

Again, I prefer your opinion as opposed to "back and Forth" talk in order to keep from getting out of hand, and to avoid 20 page discussions.

--P.S. please Read the passage prior to posting

---Added----

Funny, I guess this may be more a spinoff of my head than of the Free Will discussion. I thought I asked this question in there and Got no response? ? Anyway, it's a question that I have yet to have a good, Biblical explanation to so I will ask it anyway.

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Rom 3:10-18

"There is none righteous, not even one;

11 There is none who understands,

There is none who seeks for God;

12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;

There is none who does good,

There is not even one. "

13 "Their throat is an open grave,

With their tongues they keep deceiving,"

"The poison of asps is under their lips";

14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness";

15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood,

16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,

17 And the path of peace have they not known. "

18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

NASB

The bible is telling us that we as people are not righteous, it doesn't say that we are stupid. This person that is being spokend of here learns by hearing his plight thinking about it and deciding it is correct. Then one must read the rest of the chapter to understand that there is a way out of this situation, and it is by learning that the law has condemned him/her and he/she has no recourse. The law has comdenmed them. Only that God has made a way around it. It takes faith to go there and you can say that God calles us, but other places in the word He says that He calls all to repentance.

So my simple reply is that we are all sinners in the flesh, but not necessarily stupid enough to stay there.

The person who says that there is no God is condemned already I believe it says somewhere. Those, God can not draw to Him for they are not listening in any way or form. The rest of us are called and in the end there will be so many that they can't be counted. He told me so......

se