Moses

[Guest Bro David™]

Ah yes Bro David!  I understand what you are saying ( I think ).  If I commit a sin and I know that God has forgiven me, I still have to pay the consequences of my act of sin and that it doesn't just go away.  Is that it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Sis,

Indeed I am saying that and belive that too.

But I am asking what I am asking to expound further into what does forgiveness mean in the Biblical sense.

And how do we has Christians pass this startling truth to a un-saved someone.

How do we tell them that although they are forgiven they still will have to deal with the result of the sin.

Now if I distance myself from who I am, I will ask this question has a un-saved someone.

Why must I be forgiven when I still need to do the time or pay for the crime.

If by getting saved I am guaranteed a way into Heaven and I have paid the price for my sins , why then must I need to be forgiven.

I am saying sometimes it easy to mis-interpret the meaning of forgiveness.

When you are an un-saved person.

I am then asking how or what is the best way to anwser these types of questions.

Like would you know how to anwser someone who asks you, "if your God forgives then why did Moses not get to go into the promised Land".

[Guest shiloh357]

[quote name='Bro David

[nebula]

Boy, does this thread look like a ball of yarn after the cat got to it!

Some comments:

[quote name='Bro David

[Constant]

Yes!

[Guest shiloh357]

Boy, does this thread look like a ball of yarn after the cat got to it!

Let me try this.

There's a modern parable about a man who had his son hammer a nail into a fence everytime he had done something wrong, or something like that, as a sign to him of what he had done.

[Guest Bro David™]

Shiloh:

Let me cast some perspective on why your theory makes me ask repeated questions.

A deeper look into forgiveness is given to us by the account of the woman caught in adultery. This account from the book of John is where we get our expression "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" from, as the old King James version puts it.

John 8:3-11

And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said unto him, "Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us that such should be stoned; but what do you say?" This they said, tempting him, that they might accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he didn't hear them. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, "he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last; and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, "woman, where are those your accusers? Has no man condemned you?" She said "no man, Lord." And Jesus said unto her, "neither do I condemn you; go, and sin no more."

You want to talk about being deep into trouble, this woman had reached the end of her rope for sure.

Not only had she been caught committing adultery, but that required that she be stoned to death (not a humane execution by any means.)

Can you imagine how bad it must have looked for this woman, a convicted adulteress, about to be killed, accused before the Lord himself? But Jesus saw things differently.

Now if the consequences of her sin was to die, then how did she get a new lease on life after being forgiven ?

Second question:

Nebua /Shiloh:

Luke 7:37-39,44-47a,50

And, behold, a woman in the city, who was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, and stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee which had invited him saw it, he spoke within himself, saying, "This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that touches him; for she is a sinner." And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon (the Pharisee), "See this woman? I entered into your house, and you gave me no water for my feet; but she has washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. You gave me no kiss; but this woman, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil you did not anoint; but this woman has anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto you, 'her sins, which are many are forgiven.'" And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Even the host of the house was not given forgiveness.

The Lord says in the last parting. that her faith is the one that has saved her.

It was not the asking for forgiveness that saved her in this instance.

It was her actions that if she pays homage to Jesus thru washing His feet she somehow would gain Forgiveness.

And she did !.

She was absolved of all of her sins which were many.

Does this means that some of us ask Jesus to come into our lives but still live in doubt and sin.

If we then ask it with Faith believing it will be washed in our hearts and showing our Faith thru actions we will be totaly washed.

Can we then perhaps explain why some people experience total eradication of their sins and some don't ?

[amazingrace]

Getting back to the Moses question in this thread: I dont see any place in Scripture where Moses acuses God of being unfair in His action. He seemed to understand completely why he could not cross the Jordan. In this event, Moses exhibited anger with the people and disobeyed God in a couple of ways, in addition to failing to be an example of faith to the people he was leading, and finally,not giving God the honor and glory.

God told Moses to 'speak to the rock' and it would do as it was commanded (give forth water). Instead, Moses struck the rock in the heat of passion, and in the process, he declared ''must WE (Aaron and Moses) fetch water''? ... as if it were them and not the HOLY GOD who was making the provision.

Was Moses forgiven? Well, you be the judge. Did not Moses appear at the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus? Are we not reminded in Hebrews 11 that Moses is numbered among the faithful ?

To our small human minds, being prevented from entering the Promised Land after having come so far and through so much, might seem to be an extreme punishment for what we might not deem too serious an offense. It was apparently a very serious offense to God, who saw fit to make an example of them to the rest of the people.

[Guest shiloh357]

Now if the consequences of her sin was to die, then how did she get a new lease on life after being forgiven ?

I think you are confusing consequences with punishment. The penalty or punishment for adultery was death according to the Torah. She was saved from the penalty/punishment.

However the consequences she would have to face would be public humiliation for now having been exposed as an adulteress, the loss of the trust of her husband against whom she committed adultery, etc. Those are the natural results of that kind of sin, and it would not be far fetched to see that even though she was forgiven by Jesus, she would still have a "hard row to hoe" in getting her life back together, and dealing with a stained reputation.

Can we then perhaps explain why some people experience total eradication of their sins and some don't ?

With regard to the second story, forgiveness is not the eradication of sins. Forgiveness simply means that those sins are non longer held to one's account. If sin is eradicated, it would render incapable of sinning any longer. That is not what Jesus did.

Even the host of the house was not given forgiveness.

Because he did not ask for it.

It was her actions that if she pays homage to Jesus thru washing His feet she somehow would gain Forgiveness.

It was not her actions but what was in her heart when she kissed his feet and anointed them. She came to Jesus, and he saw her heart, and her repentance. It was her faith that saved her, not actions.

[angels4u]

She came to Jesus, and he saw her heart, and her repentance. It was her faith that saved her, not actions.

Amen, thank Jesus for forgiven us everytime--over and over again.....

Angels PTL!!!

[Guest Bro David™]

I think you are confusing consequences with punishment.  The penalty or punishment for adultery was death according to the Torah.  She was saved from the penalty/punishment.

However the consequences she would have to face would be public humiliation for now having been exposed as an adulteress, the loss of the trust of her husband against whom she committed adultery, etc.  Those are the natural results of that kind of sin, and it would not be far fetched to see that even though she was forgiven by Jesus, she would still have a "hard row to hoe" in getting her life back together, and dealing with a stained reputation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree I do see your point.

I concur.

With regard to the second story, forgiveness is not the eradication of sins.  Forgiveness simply means that those sins are non longer held to one's account.  If sin is eradicated, it would render incapable of sinning any longer.  That is not what Jesus did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am sorry, I used a bad phrase.

I meant to ask if that particular batch of sins were wiped out.