Two trbulations and the truth about them

[ENOCH2010]

One thing this thread has revealed is that the pre-trib doctrine can be twisted into anything it needs to be to tickle ears.

[ENOCH2010]

25 minutes ago, Davida said:

 You feel the need to do that already Enoch, is that just your disbelieving ears ?  if you want to toss around some descriptive bible phrases back and forth & use for insult  that would not be very constructive to a conversation nor would it be respectful. 

Are the new Christians in the tribulation not to believe the Bible as the word of God 

[Last Daze]

17 minutes ago, Davida said:

2Thess 2: 1-12

I looked and looked but couldn't find where it says that the Holy Spirit holds back evil from manifesting.  Could you please quote it and highlight the relevant verses that state what you claim it states?  In fact, I couldn't even find where it even talks about the Holy Spirit.  Please highlight the words "Holy Spirit" in red for me so I don't miss it.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

5 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

One thing this thread has revealed is that the pre-trib doctrine can be twisted into anything it needs to be to tickle ears.

The ones who are twisting it are the ones who hate the idea of a blessed hope and who try to assign false values to it to make it appear to be something that it is not.

[Brother Duke]

9 hours ago, Davida said:

I know that Cobalt will happily answer your question when he sees your post.

But in the mean time i'll just put my 2 cents in... the church age coincides with the age of the gentiles.  Apostle Paul mentions the end of the age of the gentiles - this is when the full number of the Church comes in . When the last gentile is saved - the Rapture of the Church happens.  Then GOD turns His full attention upon Israel and the time of Jacob's trouble begins. There still will be tribulation saints i.e. those who repent and come to the Lord during the Tribulation. 

 Romans11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 

Hi Davida,

 

What exactly does the fullness of the gentiles mean?  If you read Luke and compare it to Romans 11 it means that the gentiles or nations trample the Holy City.

 

Luke 21:20-24   20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

[Guest shiloh357]

11 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

I am not sure I understand.  Is 1 Cor 15 part of the rapture or not?

I don't see where the confusion is.   Yes, I believe that the rapture is mentioned in I Cor.15.  At least that is what I believe at this time.   So, where is the conundrum on your end?

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

One thing this thread has revealed is that the pre-trib doctrine can be twisted into anything it needs to be to tickle ears.

They've been warned about the coming sword.  If they're ill-prepared, they chose to be.

[Montana Marv]

11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I looked and looked but couldn't find where it says that the Holy Spirit holds back evil from manifesting.  Could you please quote it and highlight the relevant verses that state what you claim it states?  In fact, I couldn't even find where it even talks about the Holy Spirit.  Please highlight the words "Holy Spirit" in red for me so I don't miss it.

The He in 2 Thes 2: 1-12 is the same He who is refered to in 1 Thes 1. The Thessalonians knew who this He was, why don't you.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Brother Duke]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I don't see where the confusion is.   Yes, I believe that the rapture is mentioned in I Cor.15.  At least that is what I believe at this time.   So, where is the conundrum on your end?

I think we differ here.  I see 1 Cor 15 as the first resurrection and all will be raised including the tribulation saints in their new bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 

[Steve Conley]

On 5/31/2018 at 12:56 PM, Mike Mclees said:

Tribulation has been with the church since its birth at Pentecost. The believers suffered at the hands of its own people. They were scattered at the hands of Saul. They were persecuted and slaughtered at the hands of Roman emperors until Constantine Even today they are murdered and tortured in the Middle East and other countries. So tribulation has been with us for two thousand years not a 7 yr thing the pre tribulationists want to call the tribulation period where they say second rate believers will suffer the antichrist and the wrath of God for seven years.

In Daniel 9:27 it states And he (the antichrist) shall confirm a covenant for seven years between Israel and its enemies, but in the mist  of the seven 3 1/2 yrs he shall commit the abomination of desolation at which he shall declare himself to God. So if you have paid attention to what I have stated you will see the church has been under tribulation since its birth up and until the abomination of desolation 3 1/2 years after the 7 yr peace confirmed by the antichrist after which is the time of great Tribulation under the power of the antichrist who seeks to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ from the earth using what is known as the mark of the beast whereby one swears loyalty and honor to him as god.

So two thousand years tribulation and 3 1/2 years great tribulation. Don't be slow walked by Pre tribers. They manipulate the tribulation period and their false security.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mike, you are absolutely right to recognize that the present affliction that the church is suffering will continue until it is intensified to an unprecedented level in the first portion of the last half of the seventieth week. We know this unprecedented persecution by three different names: Jesus called it "great tribulation"(Matt 24:21), Daniel called it "a time of trouble"(Dan 12:1), and Jeremiah called it "Jacob's trouble"(Jer 30:7). Each are said to be unprecedented in the context where they are found.

The focus of great tribulation

Those being persecuted in this unprecedented persecution are Israel and the church. Jesus makes this truth clear in Matt 24:9 where He says that those that will be hated and violently persecuted experience such for His names sake. The church is the elect that Jesus refers to three times in Matt 24. There are many references to the persecution of those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ in the eschatological portion of John's Revelation. In Rev 12 it is said that Israel and believers are the focus of the wrath of the dragon (Satan). After the sixth seal is opened and Christ returns for His own, an innumerable multitude of gentile believers are seen, before the throne of God, having come out of great tribulation (Rev 7:9-17).

The persecution comes from Satan through the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers

Daniel revealed to us that the antichrist would make war with the saints and would prevail against them. John saw the same thing and added that they will kill those unwilling to receive the mark or worship the Beast. We see the same thing being spoken of at the end of Rev 12. Those resurrected in the first resurrection are said to have suffered at the hand of the Beast (Rev 20:4-6).

The period of unprecedented persecution is cut short to save some of the elect alive

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The unprecedented persecution will not continue for the full 42 months that the Beast continues. At some point after the beast is revealed and the apostacy of "professors" takes place, Christ will appear in the clouds of heaven, in His glory, with the mighty and holy angels, for every eye to see. He will then resurrect the dead in Christ, change the surviving believers, and catch us both up to be with Him in the clouds. He then escorts us to the Fathers house to stand before the throne. Later that very same day after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven, His wrath begins to be poured out with the first of the trumpet judgements.

Persecution of the church and Israel will continue and later become unprecedented, until Jesus comes, at which time we shall have rest, and our persecutors shall be tribulated

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The day of our rescue is the day that God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

To the unbelievers, who persecute the saints, it will be business as usual, right up until God's wrath falls suddenly upon them, the very same day as our rapture.

When the beast worshipers, having slain most of the believers, began to say peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Notice that this is the context of the wrath that we, the church, are not appointed unto.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Notice that verses ten and eleven conclude the subject of Christ's return that Paul began to speak of back in chapter 4 verse 13. 1Thes 5:10 ties it all together. Christ's arrival at His coming is the day of our resurrection/rapture (when our tribulation ends) and the day of His wrath poured out upon the Beast worshiping, earth dwellers (when their tribulation begins).

Mike, you are absolutely right, there are two future periods of unprecedented tribulation. The first falls upon the church and Israel (which is not the wrath of God), the second falls upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers (which is the wrath of God).

All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ or Lord.