Revelation and the Study of Woe

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The mystery that Paul revealed was "that it will not be necessary for one to die to receive the benefit of the resurrection", to be changed, to receive an immortal body. Also, nothing is said about being caught up (raptured) in this chapter. Chapter 15 is all about the resurrection, not the catching up. Jesus taught the catching up, as recorded in John 14:3 and Matt 24:31. Your preconceptions are showing here.

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Concerning your mention of 1Thes 5, please notice that two different groups are mentioned. Those who know Christ are in green. There is no peace and safety for those who know Christ during the time prior to the catching up. There is unprecedented persecution, even starvation, exposure to the elements, imprisonment, torture, betrayal, beheadings, etc. But those who worship the Beast will have a period of perceived peace, prosperity, and safety.

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

In 1 Thes 5 you fail to recognize that the "they", "them", "of the night", "of darkness", and "others" all refer to the unbelieving Beast worshippers who are persecuting the church. The beast and his followers, having nearly eliminated believers from the face of the earth, will say "peace and safety". The severity of the unprecedented persecution, that Jesus called great tribulation, shall threaten to leave the earth without faith, that is without believers or the elect. Jesus said the unprecedented persecution will be cut short to keep this from happening. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Mat 24:21-22) Along the same lines, Luke records Him saying: "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luk 18:7-8) Notice the connection of Christ's words to the cry of the souls under the alter that John sees at the opening of the fifth seal.

During the unprecedented persecution, the world is going about its business as usual. Jesus tells us this when He says that the day of our rescue will be the day that His wrath falls upon our persecutors.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Paul reiterates the truth that the day we rest from persecution is the day God begins to tribulate our persecutors.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Iamlamad, you are right that what John sees at the opening of the sixth seal is the cosmic sign that portends (announces the impending arrival) of Christ's revelation which will initiate the day of the Lord. However, His wrath doesn't fall until the first trumpet is blown later the same day. The word sudden is translated from the same Greek word translated "unawares". It means unexpected.

Luk 21:34  And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

They are caught like a thief catches a householder unawares by Christ's coming (parousia). However, we are not caught unawares (suddenly), we know what to look for, so, the season will be known to us. When we witness the cosmic sign we will know to be watching the skies, because His appearing and our redemption will be nigh.

Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The destruction that comes upon them unawares takes place over much time, at least many months, but not more than a little less than 3.5 years.

One of your major problems, Iamlamad, is that you fail see that it is the day of the Lord that we are not appointed unto (1 Thes 5:2-3, 9). If you understood that you would see how ridiculous this statement is:

God's wrath upon them that know Him not and upon them that persecuted His elect falls at the beginning of the day of the Lord after the resurrection and catching up. Jesus taught this and Paul taught this. To think that they thought they were in the day of the Lord would mean that they expected God's wrath to fall upon them. Which no believer would do. However, knowing that severe persecutions precede the day of the Lord, which is begun by Christ's revelation and our gathering to Him, they because of the persecution they faced, may have thought that the day was near in time. However, Paul reminds them of the apostasia (departure from the faith)

Jesus told of those who gladly receive the word but who when persecution comes are offended (Matt 13). In this time of persecution, Jesus says many will be offended.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Notice Joe, that this is the first mention of the unprecedented persecution. We know this because of the "therefore" in verse 15. Verses 9-29 all are in the context of great tribulation (the unprecedented persecution) that begins in the middle of the week.

Not only does Jesus say that many will be offended (and fall away) because of the persecution, he also says that the deception will be so great that if it were possible even the truly elect would be deceived. This is the second aspect of the falling away.

Paul tells the Thessalonians that the apostasia has to happen first and it hasn't happened yet, so the Thessalonians could know that the day of the Lord is not at hand (near in time).

Paul, also mentions another event that must take place before the day of the Lord or day of Christ can be said to be near in time. That is the revelation of the Beast (man of sin) in the Temple. Which revelation initiates the great tribulation.

Hallelujah

Again your preconceptions are showing.  You are missing the TIMING issue.  Paul's rapture comes before the Beast is revealed. Plain and simple. The rapture comes when people are saying peace and safety. NO ONE will be saying that after the 70th week begins (Rev. 8) The first trumpet judgments speak of nuclear war. NO ONE will be saying peace and safety until perhaps after many nukes have gone off - but it is doubtful even then.  Yes, the powers that be will apparently have a 7 year peace treaty.  But the first three and a half years will be when the first 6 trumpets come. Who will be saying peace and safety after or during the trumpet judgments. Just #6 will kill 1/3 of earth's remaining population. 

You are not understanding the TIMING of the entire rapture event either.  In a nutshell, Paul is telling us a SUDDENLY is coming. Suddenly the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves, instantly and without any warning whatsoever. And that will happen at a time of peace and safety - a day just like today. When God brings together the atoms of those dead bodies, that action will cause a worldwide earthquake.  (Resurrections cause earthquakes)  That earthquake that begins when the dead are raised is Paul's sudden destruction. 

So one instant after the dead in Christ are raised, THEN two groups of people get two different results: those that are alive and in Christ will be caught up so that they are not harmed by the earthquake. But those living in darkness are left behind and will suffer this first worldwide earthquake.  No Beast involved, for he will not even be revealed for another 3 1/2 years. This rapture event will TRIGGER the start of the Day of the Lord. This earthquake will be the opening of the Day of the Lord. And the Day of the Lord is the Day of His wrath, so Paul writes that He will set no appointments for us with His wrath; rather, He will raise us up out of His wrath at the rapture.  Therefore your statement:  " "they", "them", "of the night", "of darkness", and "others" all refer to the unbelieving Beast worshippers" is fantasy: the Beast has not yet been revealed.  Go back to 2 thes. 2: the departing MUST TAKE PLACE FIRST before the man of sin will be revealed as the Beast.

"The beast and his followers, having nearly eliminated believers from the face of the earth, will say "peace and safety" "  MOre fantasy. The church will be gone before the Beast is revealed. Why not just believe John when he wrote that the wrath of God begins at the 6th seal, and the great crowd is seen in heaven in chapter 7, before the 70th week even starts.

""For then shall be great tribulation..."  WHEN? Not until after chapter 14 in Revelation. And most certainly after the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. We are back to TIMING. The great crowd seen in heaven is in chapter 7, not chapter 16 or 17 or 18 or 19.  And Paul tells us clearly we are out of here before His wrath begins ( 6th seal). 

By the way, the 5th seal was opened around 32 AD and is for CHURCH AGE martyrs.  They are told they must wait for the very last church age martyr before it is judgment time. Make no mistake here: judgment time hits with that earthquake instantly after the dead in Christ are raised.  Paul and John prove this. A 70th week martyr will know they have only to wait out the 70th week: a 7 year period. Stephen, on the other hand, had no idea how long the church age would be, so they asked.

In Luke 17 Jesus is only pointing out the SUDDENNESS of the coming destruction.  On a day just like today, SUDDENLY the trumpet sounds, the dead are raised, and a worldwide earthquake hits - without any warning at all. I'll take that back: some  time before, the sun will turn dark (probably an eclipse) and the moon will appear red (probably an eclipse) and then the Trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised and the worldwide earthquake will hit. 

"However, His wrath doesn't fall until the first trumpet is blown later the same day"  I won't argue this point. His wrath begins either with the sudden destruction earthquake or the first trumpet.

"The destruction that comes upon them unawares takes place over much time, at least many months, but not more than a little less than 3.5 years."

I disagree. The trumpet judgments come in the first half, and they are no picnic!  Billions will die during the trumpet judgments. And the Beast not yet revealed. 

"One of your major problems, Iamlamad"  I think you missed it again! In your mind, my problems are that I disagree with you!

To set the record straight: JOHN shows us that the wrath of God begins either at the 6th or 7th seal, but no later. Therefore, the entire 70th week events will be God's wrath - but His wrath builds during the week and the vials are filled with His wrath.  In fact, Jesus will have wrath when He comes - after the week has finished. Some people mistakenly imagine they can separate the days of GT from God's wrath. That is impossible for they come AT THE SAME TIME. When the killing machine of the Beast and his followers are at the peak, God begins pouring out the vials to shorten the days of GT. 

"Mat 24:9  Mat 24:10  These events are CHURCH AGE events. Jesus has not yet arrived at end times in His discourse.

"Paul, also mentions another event that must take place before the day of the Lord or day of Christ can be said to be near in time. That is the revelation of the Beast (man of sin) in the Temple. Which revelation initiates the great tribulation."  It is abundantly clear that you misunderstand Paul.  There is ONE THING that must come first (before the man of sin is revealed) in 2 thes. 2, and that is the departing of the church (not a falling away from something -  catching away or a "taking out of the way." The Holy Spirit, working through the church, is now restraining the man of sin, and preventing him being revealed before his time. But when the rapture takes place, the church is "taken out of the way" and then the man of sin will be revealed. 

Steve, I doubt if we will agree on much in Revelation. But we do agree on a few things.

[Steve Conley]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Again your preconceptions are showing.  You are missing the TIMING issue.  Paul's rapture comes before the Beast is revealed. Plain and simple. The rapture comes when people are saying peace and safety. NO ONE will be saying that after the 70th week begins (Rev. ? The first trumpet judgments speak of nuclear war. NO ONE will be saying peace and safety until perhaps after many nukes have gone off - but it is doubtful even then.  Yes, the powers that be will apparently have a 7 year peace treaty.  But the first three and a half years will be when the first 6 trumpets come. Who will be saying peace and safety after or during the trumpet judgments. Just #6 will kill 1/3 of earth's remaining population. 

You are not understanding the TIMING of the entire rapture event either.  In a nutshell, Paul is telling us a SUDDENLY is coming. Suddenly the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves, instantly and without any warning whatsoever. And that will happen at a time of peace and safety - a day just like today. When God brings together the atoms of those dead bodies, that action will cause a worldwide earthquake.  (Resurrections cause earthquakes)  That earthquake that begins when the dead are raised is Paul's sudden destruction. 

So one instant after the dead in Christ are raised, THEN two groups of people get two different results: those that are alive and in Christ will be caught up so that they are not harmed by the earthquake. But those living in darkness are left behind and will suffer this first worldwide earthquake.  No Beast involved, for he will not even be revealed for another 3 1/2 years. This rapture event will TRIGGER the start of the Day of the Lord. This earthquake will be the opening of the Day of the Lord. And the Day of the Lord is the Day of His wrath, so Paul writes that He will set no appointments for us with His wrath; rather, He will raise us up out of His wrath at the rapture.  Therefore your statement:  " "they", "them", "of the night", "of darkness", and "others" all refer to the unbelieving Beast worshippers" is fantasy: the Beast has not yet been revealed.  Go back to 2 thes. 2: the departing MUST TAKE PLACE FIRST before the man of sin will be revealed as the Beast.

"The beast and his followers, having nearly eliminated believers from the face of the earth, will say "peace and safety" "  MOre fantasy. The church will be gone before the Beast is revealed. Why not just believe John when he wrote that the wrath of God begins at the 6th seal, and the great crowd is seen in heaven in chapter 7, before the 70th week even starts.

""For then shall be great tribulation..."  WHEN? Not until after chapter 14 in Revelation. And most certainly after the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. We are back to TIMING. The great crowd seen in heaven is in chapter 7, not chapter 16 or 17 or 18 or 19.  And Paul tells us clearly we are out of here before His wrath begins ( 6th seal). 

By the way, the 5th seal was opened around 32 AD and is for CHURCH AGE martyrs.  They are told they must wait for the very last church age martyr before it is judgment time. Make no mistake here: judgment time hits with that earthquake instantly after the dead in Christ are raised.  Paul and John prove this. A 70th week martyr will know they have only to wait out the 70th week: a 7 year period. Stephen, on the other hand, had no idea how long the church age would be, so they asked.

In Luke 17 Jesus is only pointing out the SUDDENNESS of the coming destruction.  On a day just like today, SUDDENLY the trumpet sounds, the dead are raised, and a worldwide earthquake hits - without any warning at all. I'll take that back: some  time before, the sun will turn dark (probably an eclipse) and the moon will appear red (probably an eclipse) and then the Trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised and the worldwide earthquake will hit. 

"However, His wrath doesn't fall until the first trumpet is blown later the same day"  I won't argue this point. His wrath begins either with the sudden destruction earthquake or the first trumpet.

"The destruction that comes upon them unawares takes place over much time, at least many months, but not more than a little less than 3.5 years."

I disagree. The trumpet judgments come in the first half, and they are no picnic!  Billions will die during the trumpet judgments. And the Beast not yet revealed. 

"One of your major problems, Iamlamad"  I think you missed it again! In your mind, my problems are that I disagree with you!

To set the record straight: JOHN shows us that the wrath of God begins either at the 6th or 7th seal, but no later. Therefore, the entire 70th week events will be God's wrath - but His wrath builds during the week and the vials are filled with His wrath.  In fact, Jesus will have wrath when He comes - after the week has finished. Some people mistakenly imagine they can separate the days of GT from God's wrath. That is impossible for they come AT THE SAME TIME. When the killing machine of the Beast and his followers are at the peak, God begins pouring out the vials to shorten the days of GT. 

"Mat 24:9  Mat 24:10  These events are CHURCH AGE events. Jesus has not yet arrived at end times in His discourse.

"Paul, also mentions another event that must take place before the day of the Lord or day of Christ can be said to be near in time. That is the revelation of the Beast (man of sin) in the Temple. Which revelation initiates the great tribulation."  It is abundantly clear that you misunderstand Paul.  There is ONE THING that must come first (before the man of sin is revealed) in 2 thes. 2, and that is the departing of the church (not a falling away from something -  catching away or a "taking out of the way." The Holy Spirit, working through the church, is now restraining the man of sin, and preventing him being revealed before his time. But when the rapture takes place, the church is "taken out of the way" and then the man of sin will be revealed. 

Steve, I doubt if we will agree on much in Revelation. But we do agree on a few things.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Maybe this will help you.

 

Hallelujah

[iamlamad]

Just now, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Maybe this will help you.

 

Hallelujah

Sorry, but this chart is miles off and will deceive all who believe it.  It shows the seals inside the 70th week. This is a fallacy. Go back and study chapters 4 & 5. These chapters are the context for the seals. Pull a seal out of its context, and who knows what error you will end up with. 

Notice in chapter 4, Jesus is not in the throne room, He was not found in the first search for one worth, and the Holy Spirit is still in the throne room. NONE of these is what we would expect in the throne room of approximately 95 AD.  But this is a vision and it is NOT of the throne room of 95 AD.  In chapter 5, another search is made, and Jesus IS found worthy. What changed? TIME changed and Jesus rose from the dead. He was NOT seen at the right hand of the father in chapter 4 because He was on earth for 32 years. He was not found worthy in the first search John watched because He had not yet risen from the dead. The Holy Spirit was still there because He was on earth and had not yet ascended.

In chapter 5, Jesus rose from the dead, then ascended, and John got to see the very moment Jesus entered the throne room, as a Lamb having been slain.  Time: around 32 AD. From John seeing Jesus arrive in the throne room in chapter 5, on to the first seal, NO ONE can find 2000 years in any verse or between any two verses: it is not there and was never meant to be there.

Conclusion? The intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit, is that the first seals were broken or opened around 32 AD. The first seal does NOT represent the antichrist. John used the color white I think 17 times in Revelation, and ever other time to represent righteousness. there is no way John or the Holy Spirit would use white to represent anything BUT righteousness at the first seal. The first seal then is to represent the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the world.

Seals 2, 3, and for, the Red horse, the Black horse, and the Pale horse ride together. These three represent the devil's attempt to stop the advance of the gospel to the world. His goal was to keep the gospel in the 1/4 of the earth centered on Jerusalem. Of course he failed.

Finally, the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. Stephen was among them. This is the first hint of a long delay in the seals or even anywhere in Revelation. They are told they must wait for judgment until the very last martyr will be killed as they were, as church age martyrs. In short, they were told they must wait for the rapture of the church that will end the church age and usher in the time of judgment: the Day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel.

Your chart is way off and is simply wrong on many points.

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Iamlamad,

The main difference between what you believer and what prewrath believes,  is that you are a prewrath adherent,  you just don't know it. 

We both agree that the 6th seal is the acknowledgement by the world,  that the day of his wrath is come.   Steve points it out very well by pointing to the scripture that says that the sun and moon will be unnaturally darkened BEFORE the great and notable day of the Lord comes.   It does not say how long the "before" is in Joel,  but it is the sign,  that will truly signify that the rapture odds imminent:  "lift up your heads,  redemption is nigh" are the words of Jesus.   We both seem to agree about that.   You believe that there are 7 years to follow.   We believe it to be about half of that length of time.  But we both believe in the prewrath rapture of the church. 

Paul's teaching about the rapture in 1 Thess 4, is NOT ABOUT the "suddenness" of the rapture.   You are missing his point.   You cannot overlook him saying,  "we shall not ALL sleep,  but we shall ALL be changed".  Paul is trying to get the point across that not everyone shall be asleep in the grave at the time of his parousia.  Some,  though few in number,  will survive the horrific events of the great tribulation,  aka, not known as the wrath of God,  and will be alive to be changed in a swift moment of time [the twinkling of an eye] to meet Christ and all of the resurrected saints,   IN THE AIR!   It is the Day of the Lord,  that comes with unexpectedness, not the rapture.   We are not in darkness that that day should come upon us unawares. 

Other than minor differing views on the seals and trumpets and the revelation of the beast,  welcome to the prewrath fellowship. 

The truth of scripture is that the rapture will be prewrath. It will also be pre-70th week. When Rosenthal and Van Kampen first came up with prewrath, they both ruined their ministry and i am convinced shorted their lives. I have spend many many hours in both books, discovering where they started into their error.

They imagined that the signs in the sun and moon in Joel 3, and the signs in the sun and moon in Matthew 24 were of the SAME SIGN that would come after the days of great tribulation. They were sadly very mistaken, and that threw their entire theory into file 13 and error.  The truth is, the sign in Joel 2 as the moon turning blood red is DIFFERENT that the sign that will come before Jesus' return as seen in Rev. 19.  In Rev. 19, sign not shown in Revelation, both the sun and moon are dark, as well as the stars: it will be TOTAL DARKNESS.  Not so with the sign in Joel 2. It will not be totally dark. I suspect this sign is speaking of eclipses of the sun and moon - such as we have seen recently. 

Because of this one error in their thinking, they had to completely rearrange Revelation to fit their theory. BIG MISTAKE!

Axiom on Revelation: Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

Sorry, but you cannot find any hint of "the horrific events of the great tribulation" in 1 Thes. 4 or 5. You have to ad lib them, which is why I said your preconceptions are showing through.  When you understand Paul in these two chapters, the suddenly is the dead in Christ suddenly flying up out of the ground.  It will come at a time of peace and safety and with no warning except the signs in the sun and moon. People tend for forget signs! Most have already decided the 4 blood moons had no meaning. Nothing happened. The rapture could happen today! Signs have taken place!

Go to the book of Revelation and find the first earthquake. You will find it at the 6th seal. At the 5th seal they are told they must wait for the rapture, and at the 6th seal God's wrath begins. The rapture then absolutely must come between the 5th and 6th seal. I am convinced that great earthquake will be caused by the dead around the world rising out of their graves. Matthew 27 states, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened" When the two witnesses will rise, another earthquake. However, they rise at the 7th vial that ends the week, and that is the "last day" when God raises all the Old Testament saints. Many of these will come from before the flood and their atoms may be a mile deep and hundreds of miles apart for each body. it will cause the world's worst ever earthquake. The marriage in heaven must wait for them, and John shows us it is so. 

I did not miss Paul's point. 

It is not a mistake that John SAW the raptured church shortly after the 6th seal in chapter 7: the great crowd too large to number. The church is at that time IN HEAVEN and around the throne.  It was Rosenthal, the first prewrather, that convinced me this great crowd was indeed the raptured church. 

" It is the Day of the Lord,  that comes with unexpectedness, not the rapture. "  More preconceptions.  The truth is, Jesus pretrib coming with the sound of a trumpet and the voice of the angel will be the TRIGGER for the dead in Christ rising. Jesus will call them up. Then the raising of the dead in Christ will be the trigger for the great "sudden destruction" earthquake." And that earthquake will be the sudden start of the Day of the Lord. Yes, of course the DAY comes suddenly with no warning, because JESUS comes suddenly and with no warning. 

What you are missing in 1 thes 4 & 5 is that both the rapture event and the start of the Day are tied tightly together and cannot be separated: the rapture is the trigger for the start of the day. And the first trigger is the coming of Christ to call the dead in Christ up.

Don't even think of including me in with prewrathers. In general their theory is far far from the truth of scripture. Only one tiny part of prewrath is truth, and that is that the rapture really does come prewrath, but BARELY !

[Steve Conley]

20 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but this chart is miles off and will deceive all who believe it.  It shows the seals inside the 70th week. This is a fallacy. Go back and study chapters 4 & 5. These chapters are the context for the seals. Pull a seal out of its context, and who knows what error you will end up with. 

Notice in chapter 4, Jesus is not in the throne room, He was not found in the first search for one worth, and the Holy Spirit is still in the throne room. NONE of these is what we would expect in the throne room of approximately 95 AD.  But this is a vision and it is NOT of the throne room of 95 AD.  In chapter 5, another search is made, and Jesus IS found worthy. What changed? TIME changed and Jesus rose from the dead. He was NOT seen at the right hand of the father in chapter 4 because He was on earth for 32 years. He was not found worthy in the first search John watched because He had not yet risen from the dead. The Holy Spirit was still there because He was on earth and had not yet ascended.

In chapter 5, Jesus rose from the dead, then ascended, and John got to see the very moment Jesus entered the throne room, as a Lamb having been slain.  Time: around 32 AD. From John seeing Jesus arrive in the throne room in chapter 5, on to the first seal, NO ONE can find 2000 years in any verse or between any two verses: it is not there and was never meant to be there.

Conclusion? The intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit, is that the first seals were broken or opened around 32 AD. The first seal does NOT represent the antichrist. John used the color white I think 17 times in Revelation, and ever other time to represent righteousness. there is no way John or the Holy Spirit would use white to represent anything BUT righteousness at the first seal. The first seal then is to represent the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the world.

Seals 2, 3, and for, the Red horse, the Black horse, and the Pale horse ride together. These three represent the devil's attempt to stop the advance of the gospel to the world. His goal was to keep the gospel in the 1/4 of the earth centered on Jerusalem. Of course he failed.

Finally, the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. Stephen was among them. This is the first hint of a long delay in the seals or even anywhere in Revelation. They are told they must wait for judgment until the very last martyr will be killed as they were, as church age martyrs. In short, they were told they must wait for the rapture of the church that will end the church age and usher in the time of judgment: the Day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel.

Your chart is way off and is simply wrong on many points.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Iamlamad, I'm going to have to disagree with your novel idea concerning the timing of the opening of the seals. It is pretty clear that the beginning of sorrows corresponds with the first three seals. When Christ spoke of the beginning of sorrows it was in answer to when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age. The context was the parousia of Christ and the events which would signify His soon arrival. 

Matt 24:4-8 cover the beginning of sorrows

Matt 24:9-29 covers the period of great tribulation

Matt 24:30- covers Christ's appearing and our gathering unto Him.

Hallelujah

 

[Steve Conley]

41 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The truth of scripture is that the rapture will be prewrath. It will also be pre-70th week. When Rosenthal and Van Kampen first came up with prewrath, they both ruined their ministry and i am convinced shorted their lives. I have spend many many hours in both books, discovering where they started into their error.

They imagined that the signs in the sun and moon in Joel 3, and the signs in the sun and moon in Matthew 24 were of the SAME SIGN that would come after the days of great tribulation. They were sadly very mistaken, and that threw their entire theory into file 13 and error.  The truth is, the sign in Joel 2 as the moon turning blood red is DIFFERENT that the sign that will come before Jesus' return as seen in Rev. 19.  In Rev. 19, sign not shown in Revelation, both the sun and moon are dark, as well as the stars: it will be TOTAL DARKNESS.  Not so with the sign in Joel 2. It will not be totally dark. I suspect this sign is speaking of eclipses of the sun and moon - such as we have seen recently. 

Because of this one error in their thinking, they had to completely rearrange Revelation to fit their theory. BIG MISTAKE!

Axiom on Revelation: Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

Sorry, but you cannot find any hint of "the horrific events of the great tribulation" in 1 Thes. 4 or 5. You have to ad lib them, which is why I said your preconceptions are showing through.  When you understand Paul in these two chapters, the suddenly is the dead in Christ suddenly flying up out of the ground.  It will come at a time of peace and safety and with no warning except the signs in the sun and moon. People tend for forget signs! Most have already decided the 4 blood moons had no meaning. Nothing happened. The rapture could happen today! Signs have taken place!

Go to the book of Revelation and find the first earthquake. You will find it at the 6th seal. At the 5th seal they are told they must wait for the rapture, and at the 6th seal God's wrath begins. The rapture then absolutely must come between the 5th and 6th seal. I am convinced that great earthquake will be caused by the dead around the world rising out of their graves. Matthew 27 states, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened" When the two witnesses will rise, another earthquake. However, they rise at the 7th vial that ends the week, and that is the "last day" when God raises all the Old Testament saints. Many of these will come from before the flood and their atoms may be a mile deep and hundreds of miles apart for each body. it will cause the world's worst ever earthquake. The marriage in heaven must wait for them, and John shows us it is so. 

I did not miss Paul's point. 

It is not a mistake that John SAW the raptured church shortly after the 6th seal in chapter 7: the great crowd too large to number. The church is at that time IN HEAVEN and around the throne.  It was Rosenthal, the first prewrather, that convinced me this great crowd was indeed the raptured church. 

" It is the Day of the Lord,  that comes with unexpectedness, not the rapture. "  More preconceptions.  The truth is, Jesus pretrib coming with the sound of a trumpet and the voice of the angel will be the TRIGGER for the dead in Christ rising. Jesus will call them up. Then the raising of the dead in Christ will be the trigger for the great "sudden destruction" earthquake." And that earthquake will be the sudden start of the Day of the Lord. Yes, of course the DAY comes suddenly with no warning, because JESUS comes suddenly and with no warning. 

What you are missing in 1 thes 4 & 5 is that both the rapture event and the start of the Day are tied tightly together and cannot be separated: the rapture is the trigger for the start of the day. And the first trigger is the coming of Christ to call the dead in Christ up.

Don't even think of including me in with prewrathers. In general their theory is far far from the truth of scripture. Only one tiny part of prewrath is truth, and that is that the rapture really does come prewrath, but BARELY !

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Iamlamad, my understanding of eschatology was derived without the help of Rosenthal and Van Kampen. Although, I appreciate men who had the courage to stand against apostacy knowing that they will pay a great price. What they lost isn't comparable to the reward that awaits them for their faithfulness. Nor is temporal fame of their detractors comparable to the eternal loss that they shall suffer. By the way, I have yet to read either of their books. My teaching is entirely my own understanding as I attempt to be led by the Holy Spirit in dilligent study of the Holy Scriptures.

When you say the rapture will be pre-seventieth week you make the same error as the classic pre-tribbers. Jesus correctly identified the unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation as starting when the Beast shall stand in the Temple, shewing himself to be God. When he does that in the middle of the week, the Temple will be defiled, causing the oblation and the sacrifice to cease. There is no argument against the great tribulation beginning in the middle of the week. That means that the great tribulation is in the first part of the second half of the week.

There is also no arguing against the fact that there will be Christians (believers in Jesus Christ, the elect) martyred during the great tribulation. The Lord made it clear that before, but on the same day as His wrath falls upon the wicked, He will rescue His own.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

None of His own will experience His wrath. All who say that the great tribulation is the wrath of God are deceived and deceiving others. God forbid, that He would pour out His wrath upon His own faithful servants, most of whom, will die as martyrs loving not their lives unto death.

Paul made it clear that the day God begins to tribulate the unbelieving Beast worshippers is the day that the church rests from persecution.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Your system of eschatological understanding is contrary to these great truths.

Paul said that we (the elect of God, believers in Jesus Christ) are not appointed unto the wrath of God on the day of the Lord but to be saved from it.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
...
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Pre-tribbers have believers suffering the wrath of God.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb.

[iamlamad]

33 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Iamlamad, my understanding of eschatology was derived without the help of Rosenthal and Van Kampen. Although, I appreciate men who had the courage to stand against apostacy knowing that they will pay a great price. What they lost isn't comparable to the reward that awaits them for their faithfulness. Nor is temporal fame of their detractors comparable to the eternal loss that they shall suffer. By the way, I have yet to read either of their books. My teaching is entirely my own understanding as I attempt to be led by the Holy Spirit in dilligent study of the Holy Scriptures.

When you say the rapture will be pre-seventieth week you make the same error as the classic pre-tribbers. Jesus correctly identified the unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation as starting when the Beast shall stand in the Temple, shewing himself to be God. When he does that in the middle of the week, the Temple will be defiled, causing the oblation and the sacrifice to cease. There is no argument against the great tribulation beginning in the middle of the week. That means that the great tribulation is in the first part of the second half of the week.

There is also no arguing against the fact that there will be Christians (believers in Jesus Christ, the elect) martyred during the great tribulation. The Lord made it clear that before, but on the same day as His wrath falls upon the wicked, He will rescue His own.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

None of His own will experience His wrath. All who say that the great tribulation is the wrath of God are deceived and deceiving others. God forbid, that He would pour out His wrath upon His own faithful servants, most of whom, will die as martyrs loving not their lives unto death.

Paul made it clear that the day God begins to tribulate the unbelieving Beast worshippers is the day that the church rests from persecution.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Your system of eschatological understanding is contrary to these great truths.

Paul said that we (the elect of God, believers in Jesus Christ) are not appointed unto the wrath of God on the day of the Lord but to be saved from it.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
...
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Pre-tribbers have believers suffering the wrath of God.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb.

I agree, Praise be unto the Lamb of God, who took our sins upon Himself! 

Steven, this is just more of the same errors! 

 

"When you say the rapture will be pre-seventieth week you make the same error as the classic pre-tribbers."  You only say this because you disagree with it. The truth is, the classic pretribbers are right, and it is you who are in error.  The great crowd is seen in heaven in chapter 7 - before John has even started the week!

"Jesus correctly identified the unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation as starting when the Beast shall stand in the Temple" He did not use those words, but the point is made: When the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is god, that event will divide the week into two equal halves.  Remember what Jesus said next? He warned people living in Judea that when then see this abomination, then they must flee instantly; no time to go get a coat or anything: RUN!  Where do we find this fleeing in Revelation? It is at 12:6.  Therefore the abomination must come only a second or two before 12:6. In fact, the abomination will take place on earth and the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark that time. 

But then, the false prophet must appear - and he does not show up right then, but some unknown time later. And it is the False Prophet that convinces the people to build the great image. It is the false prophet that causes the MARK. So the days of Great tribulation (the worst days) will  not begin until the image and mark are created. THEN all must die who will not worship the image and/or take the mark. In Revelation that will be after chapter 14. Finally, in chapter 15 the martyrs from the BEAST will begin showing up in heaven. 

Now, please tell me where "prewrath" puts the days of GT in Revelation?  They insist it must come before The 6th seal! See how prewrath must totally rewrite Revelation to make their theory fit? 

That means that the great tribulation is in the first part of the second half of the week. This is just and only in the mind of a prewrather, but NOT in scripture. Again, look and see where the martyrs begin to show up in heaven: in chapter 15!  This is near the end of the last half of the week. If not the end, then maybe in the middle.  I will say that chapter 12 tells us that Satan will go after those who fled immediately after the midpoint. But he must use people. It will take time for the False prophet to show up, more time to get the image and mark ready.  See what I mean about starting with a false premise, then all else is in error. 

There is also no arguing against the fact that there will be Christians (believers in Jesus Christ, the elect) martyred during the great tribulation.   Agreed. But according to the written word of God, it will NOT be the bride of Christ.

The Lord made it clear that before, but on the same day as His wrath falls upon the wicked, He will rescue His own. I would like to see this verse.

I agree with this thought, because I see that is exactly what happens in 1 Thes. 5.  1: the dead in Christ rise first, causing a great earthquake. Paul tells us this is the beginning of God's wrath.  So every trumpet judgment (first half of the week) and every vial in the second half come with God's wrath.  But at the very same time, after the midpoint Satan's wrath is felt. It is impossible to separate time for Satan's wrath and God's wrath, for they come at the same time.

All who say that the great tribulation is the wrath of God are deceived and deceiving others.  Sorry, but you are 180 degrees off here - completely wrong. You have man's ideas not God's and this cannot be proven with scripture. God's wrath begins at the beginning of the 70th week, and continues all through the week - especially at the last half of the week in the vials.  Why not just take God at His word? God waits during the last half until the murder regime  (the beast and his armies)  until the days of GT are at their peak, (Satan's wrath) and begins pouring out the vials of wrath to SHORTEN those days.  In other words, God's wrath is felt at the very same time Satan's wrath is felt. Again, it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate them. How can you separate something in time, when they are concurrent?  The truth then is that prewrathers are deceiving others.  Their theories cannot be proven by the word of God rightly divided and understood.  Don't take my word for it! Go read the first verses of chapter 15.  That is the beginning of the days of GT.

God forbid, that He would pour out His wrath upon His own faithful servants   For all those that are left behind when Jesus comes pretrib, they WILL be living under God's wrath. It is not God's perfect will for them - He wanted them to be ready when Jesus came for His own.  So life will be very very hard for them. The best thing for them to do is to turn themselves in and lose their head, and go on to heaven.

Paul said that we (the elect of God, believers in Jesus Christ) are not appointed unto the wrath of God on the day of the Lord but to be saved from it. Exactly! But in the same passage, Paul tells us this sudden destruction wrath is the start of the Day of the Lord! And those alive and in Christ are snatched out just as the ground begins to quake.  And the ONLY place this can fit in Revelation is between the 5th and 6th seal. The 70th week then will begin with the 7th seal. Believe it, for it is truth!

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  Because JESUS will come as a thief in the night! His coming pretrib FOR His bride will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord. 

Pre-tribbers have believers suffering the wrath of God.  NOT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST!  ONLY those believers who are left behind and new believers who begin to believe during the week. They SHOULD have been ready, but were not, as the 5 foolish virgins. Please note, they DID have oil. 

I just cannot accept prewrath on many counts. It simply does not follow the plain and simple word of God. Revelation must be twisted to the unrecognizable point to make it fit prewrath.  On the other hand, I don't accept classical pretrib either, for they imagine that Rev. 4:1 is the rapture. And they are clueless about the timing of the seals. I think prewrathers are too. 

[Steve Conley]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I agree, Praise be unto the Lamb of God, who took our sins upon Himself! 

Steven, this is just more of the same errors! 

 

"When you say the rapture will be pre-seventieth week you make the same error as the classic pre-tribbers."  You only say this because you disagree with it. The truth is, the classic pretribbers are right, and it is you who are in error.  The great crowd is seen in heaven in chapter 7 - before John has even started the week!

"Jesus correctly identified the unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation as starting when the Beast shall stand in the Temple" He did not use those words, but the point is made: When the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is god, that event will divide the week into two equal halves.  Remember what Jesus said next? He warned people living in Judea that when then see this abomination, then they must flee instantly; no time to go get a coat or anything: RUN!  Where do we find this fleeing in Revelation? It is at 12:6.  Therefore the abomination must come only a second or two before 12:6. In fact, the abomination will take place on earth and the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark that time. 

But then, the false prophet must appear - and he does not show up right then, but some unknown time later. And it is the False Prophet that convinces the people to build the great image. It is the false prophet that causes the MARK. So the days of Great tribulation (the worst days) will  not begin until the image and mark are created. THEN all must die who will not worship the image and/or take the mark. In Revelation that will be after chapter 14. Finally, in chapter 15 the martyrs from the BEAST will begin showing up in heaven. 

Now, please tell me where "prewrath" puts the days of GT in Revelation?  They insist it must come before The 6th seal! See how prewrath must totally rewrite Revelation to make their theory fit? 

That means that the great tribulation is in the first part of the second half of the week. This is just and only in the mind of a prewrather, but NOT in scripture. Again, look and see where the martyrs begin to show up in heaven: in chapter 15!  This is near the end of the last half of the week. If not the end, then maybe in the middle.  I will say that chapter 12 tells us that Satan will go after those who fled immediately after the midpoint. But he must use people. It will take time for the False prophet to show up, more time to get the image and mark ready.  See what I mean about starting with a false premise, then all else is in error. 

There is also no arguing against the fact that there will be Christians (believers in Jesus Christ, the elect) martyred during the great tribulation.   Agreed. But according to the written word of God, it will NOT be the bride of Christ.

The Lord made it clear that before, but on the same day as His wrath falls upon the wicked, He will rescue His own. I would like to see this verse.

I agree with this thought, because I see that is exactly what happens in 1 Thes. 5.  1: the dead in Christ rise first, causing a great earthquake. Paul tells us this is the beginning of God's wrath.  So every trumpet judgment (first half of the week) and every vial in the second half come with God's wrath.  But at the very same time, after the midpoint Satan's wrath is felt. It is impossible to separate time for Satan's wrath and God's wrath, for they come at the same time.

All who say that the great tribulation is the wrath of God are deceived and deceiving others.  Sorry, but you are 180 degrees off here - completely wrong. You have man's ideas not God's and this cannot be proven with scripture. God's wrath begins at the beginning of the 70th week, and continues all through the week - especially at the last half of the week in the vials.  Why not just take God at His word? God waits during the last half until the murder regime  (the beast and his armies)  until the days of GT are at their peak, (Satan's wrath) and begins pouring out the vials of wrath to SHORTEN those days.  In other words, God's wrath is felt at the very same time Satan's wrath is felt. Again, it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate them. How can you separate something in time, when they are concurrent?  The truth then is that prewrathers are deceiving others.  Their theories cannot be proven by the word of God rightly divided and understood.  Don't take my word for it! Go read the first verses of chapter 15.  That is the beginning of the days of GT.

God forbid, that He would pour out His wrath upon His own faithful servants   For all those that are left behind when Jesus comes pretrib, they WILL be living under God's wrath. It is not God's perfect will for them - He wanted them to be ready when Jesus came for His own.  So life will be very very hard for them. The best thing for them to do is to turn themselves in and lose their head, and go on to heaven.

Paul said that we (the elect of God, believers in Jesus Christ) are not appointed unto the wrath of God on the day of the Lord but to be saved from it. Exactly! But in the same passage, Paul tells us this sudden destruction wrath is the start of the Day of the Lord! And those alive and in Christ are snatched out just as the ground begins to quake.  And the ONLY place this can fit in Revelation is between the 5th and 6th seal. The 70th week then will begin with the 7th seal. Believe it, for it is truth!

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  Because JESUS will come as a thief in the night! His coming pretrib FOR His bride will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord. 

Pre-tribbers have believers suffering the wrath of God.  NOT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST!  ONLY those believers who are left behind and new believers who begin to believe during the week. They SHOULD have been ready, but were not, as the 5 foolish virgins. Please note, they DID have oil. 

I just cannot accept prewrath on many counts. It simply does not follow the plain and simple word of God. Revelation must be twisted to the unrecognizable point to make it fit prewrath.  On the other hand, I don't accept classical pretrib either, for they imagine that Rev. 4:1 is the rapture. And they are clueless about the timing of the seals. I think prewrathers are too. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ

Iamlamad, I've finally figured out where you are coming from. You take all of Revelation as being in chronological order. You apparently don't view any passages as being parenthetical or a pericope. 

I would like to fully grasp what you believe before I critically examine it. If you wouldn't mind, I'll ask some questions.

How do you determine when the week has started from what is said in the book of Revelation?

Most pre-tribbers want to start it with the first seal being opened, to which I agree. I agree because of the comparative agreement of the first three seals with the conditions of the beginning of sorrows that Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse.

Above you made a lot of propositions without the associated Scriptural support. Could you please provide that for me? Thanks.

Hallelujah

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ

Iamlamad, I've finally figured out where you are coming from. You take all of Revelation as being in chronological order. You apparently don't view any passages as being parenthetical or a pericope. 

I would like to fully grasp what you believe before I critically examine it. If you wouldn't mind, I'll ask some questions.

How do you determine when the week has started from what is said in the book of Revelation?

Most pre-tribbers want to start it with the first seal being opened, to which I agree. I agree because of the comparative agreement of the first three seals with the conditions of the beginning of sorrows that Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse.

Above you made a lot of propositions without the associated Scriptural support. Could you please provide that for me? Thanks.

Hallelujah

Hi Steve. You are getting close. I wrote an axiom on Revelation:

"Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong."

There are minor exceptions when John uses parentheses, but they are minor. In general, events of one chapter will always take place after events of previous chapters and before the events of later chapters.

Exception: in 12:1-5 John wrote a parenthesis about the birth of Christ. It was a "history lesson" for John. 

In chapters 4 & 5 John wrote a vision from the past, looking back to a time before Jesus rose from the dead and then ascended.  Those events took place long before Revelation was written. 

Another parenthesis - on that many miss - is Rev. 11:4-13.  In verses 1 - 3 John is about 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. Then He takes the readers down a side journey of the rest of the week, for the two witnesses only. Then He finishes that side journey with the first and second woes finished, the third woe comes quickly and the 7th trumpet is sounded.  The 7th trumpet sounds marking the exact midpoint - the very time that the man of sin will enter the temple.  Because most people miss that these verses are a parenthesis, they imagine that the two witnesses testify during the first half of the week, and die just before the midpoint.  That is incorrect.

How did I know when the week begins? 

One day, I was just minding my own business, reading in Daniel about the abomination happening in the "midst" of the week. The moment my eyes and mind got to the word "Midst,"  the Holy Spirit spoke to me saying, "you could find the exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation." I don't mean I was having a dream. I was wide awake. I don't mean I ate too much pizza: I had none. I  heard words. It was the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to me. I was in the spirit and could not move. My senses were suspended. My spirit man answered Him: 
"How would I find that?" 

The Holy Spirit answered: "Whenever I mentioned an event that will start at the midpoint, and go to the end of the week, I always mentioned the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find these mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint."  

He then added, "In fact, you could find the entire 70th week, 'clearly marked.'" When He said this, I knew in my Spirit that all three points would use the same marker, so when I found what was marking the midpoint, I would easily find the beginning and end of the 70th week. This was a download of knowledge without words: I just suddenly knew the beginning and ending of the week would use the same marker.

I found that the 7th trumpet marked the midpoint - the very thing He sent me to find. I quickly turned to the 7th vial and the last three words were: It is done." I knew then I had found the entire 70th week "clearly marked."  But I hurried and flipped pages to see the 7th seal, and that was the 30 minutes of silence. I thought, How like our God to mark the 70th week with 7's!

"Most pre-tribbers want to start it with the first seal being opened, to which I agree." Then you are agreeing with an error! Go back and read chapters 4 &  5 again, as they are the context for the first seals. 

 

As I was studying these two chapters, I got stuck on one verse. It was about the apostle John weeping much. This bugged me enough that I started bugging God about it: “God, why would You include this in your wonderful book? Why did we need to know that John wept much?” Finally, He answered me: “It shows timing.”

I spent at least two weeks trying to understand “timing” from this passage, and just could not see it anywhere. After another two weeks or so, God spoke again and said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I searched and could not see any “movement” of time.  I kept asking Him for help. Finally, God spoke: “I am going to ask you three questions about this passage; until you can answer them correctly you will never understand this part of the vision.” Here are His three questions.

1. “When John first saw into the throne room, why didn’t he immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father? There are many scriptures that say  that is where I should be. Stephen saw Me at the right hand of the Father years before John saw this vision.”

2. “Why did the first search that John watched to find one worthy to break the seals, end in failure? If you read ahead, you see that I was found worthy. Why was I not found worthy at the first search? John wept because that search ended in failure.”

3. “Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?”

As each of these questions was asked, I answered, “Lord, I don’t know the answer to this question.”  I struggled to find the answers, week after week, but my studies were in vein; I just could not find them. Finally God came to my rescue and told me to go and study chapter 12. I did not want to, but I was obedient. 

When I got my pages flipped to chapter 12, God spoke and told me that the theme of chapter 12 was Him introducing John to the “dragon,” and what the dragon would do during the 70th Week. He told me to count how many times the dragon was mentioned, including pronouns. I counted 32 times. I acknowledged that this chapter was about the dragon. He continued: This chapter is about the dragon, but in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. However, I chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a history lesson to John." 

Finally, I discovered what God had sent me to chapter 12 to learn: a “history lesson.” I heard Him say that those verses were about Jesus birth, and about how the dragon tried to kill Jesus as a child. They also tell us that Jesus was born from Israel. After gaining this understanding, I heard Him say, “now you can go back and study chapters 4 and 5 again.” This time I had “history lesson” on my mind. The moment I got my bible turned back to chapters 4 and 5, I had all three answers! 

Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father, because He was still on earth. The Holy Spirit was still in heaven because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down. And "no man was found" because at that time, in chapter 4, Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. 

In chapter 5 we find the very moment in time that Jesus ascended into heaven - time: about 32 AD.  How then can seal 1 be in the 70th week since it was opened around 32 AD? It is to represent the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the world! This is church age timing, exactly the timing in the first verses of Matthew 24 when Jesus said, "the end is not yet." He was speaking of church age events, not the end. He did not get to end times until around verse 13 or 14. The truth is, John started the book at the time he lived, around 95 AD.  He covered the church age, which is the beginning of sorrows. 

As you can see, I have a very good reason to believe these verses as I do.  For some verses, I know the intent of the Holy Spirit. I know because He told me.  I can convinced it is a big mistake to think one can rearrange Revelation to fit some theory!  the thing is, there is no need, for it makes perfect sense, and fits all other end times scriptures as it is written.

[iamlamad]

On 7/4/2018 at 1:50 PM, Da Puppers said:

 Your last paragraph reminds me of a saying that says: 

I wouldn't believe it if it hit me in the face.  You admit that prewrath is correct,  but refuse to agree with it?... 

Your use of the word suspect in paragraph 2:

"I suspect this sign is speaking of eclipses of the sun and moon"

tells me that you have no scripture to believe that the cosmic signs in the sun & moon have already past.  It's right there in the scripture: 

*[[Joe 2:10]] KJV* The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

*[[Joe 2:11]] KJV* And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

The last part of verse 11 is an near word for word expression of the opening of the 6th seal: 

*[[Rev 6:17]] KJV* For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The shaking of the heavens and earth are because of the upcoming one time event in which the Lord's voice shall shake the heaven and the earth. 

*[[Joe 3:16]] KJV* The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

*[[Amo 1:2]] KJV* And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.

*[[Jer 25:30]] KJV* Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

These and other scriptures will be in fulfilment of this: 

*[[Heb 12:26]] KJV* Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet ONCE MORE I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Your "suspected" belief is based on a pretrib theology and not scripture. 

The rapture of the church was not a mystery,  but he is conveying a mistaken notion of what Jesus said. 

*[[1Th 4:15]] KJV* For this we say unto you BY THE  WORD OF THE LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Jesus said that "he that shall endure to the end shall be saved".  Jesus talked of the parousia several times in the Olivet Discourse.   You might want to verify that there are multiple words used for the coming of our Lord.   Parousia refers to the brightness to which every eye shall see when he comes with his holy angels in THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER, IN THE CLOUDS.   Do you know its brightness?  It will kill anyone with unshielded eyes. 

The great crowd in heaven wearing robes of white?By your own admission of the 5th seal martyrs,  you acknowledge that white robes do not signify the incident of the rapture.   The great multitude in Rev 7 are the innumerable millions wearing white robes "coming out of great tribulation ", having been given the righteousness of God,  the same as is told of the new Jerusalem clothed in fine linen. 

It is good to hear you acknowledge the relevance of an  earthquake.   Do you believe in the resurrection that took place here (and other places)?

*[[Rev 8:5]] KJV* And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Your arguments (I've addressed only some)  are so full of holes, that it looks like the Martian moon. 

Blessings

The PuP 

You misunderstood. Prewrath is correct ONLY in that the rapture will take place before God's wrath. that much is truth.  However, all the rest of the "stuff" that comes with the prewrathers is error big time. They must completely rearrange Revelation to make it fit their theory! Another error.

 

Joel covers BOTH TIMES the signs in the sun and moon are seen. Joel 2:10 is speaking of the coming of Our Lord as seen in Rev. 20, NOT His coming as described in 1 Thes. 4. Notice that it is speaking of darkness.  When Jesus comes as lightning splitting the sky, it will be totally dark.  In other words, no moon can be seen.  

Verse 11: what part of the Day of the Lord is this describing? The DAY starts at the 6th seal and goes to the end of revelation! If you compare Joel 2 where the moon turns red, to Joel 3, you will find he covers BOTH times these signs are seen.

Sorry, out of time.