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Heb 13:8

Matt 24:20 Winter or a Storm

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9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

However, there is absolutely NOTHING in the context to suggest that this should be interpreted allegorically! To the contrary, Yeshua` is saying to His students for THEM to pray that their ESCAPE not have to be made in the rainy season or on the Shabbat! This escape had to be made circa 66 A.D., PRIOR TO the seige of Jerusalem that resulted in the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

Peace,

Ok, so you believe the entire Olivet Discourse has passed?

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8 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

False  rapture? 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5. I'd be careful who you're calling a false teacher n2.

I'm good, I know for a fact (scripture)that this false teaching is wrong..

If alive at the time, we will go through the tribulation ,no if's and's or but's about it!!!!!

And I didn't call anyone a false teacher

 

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5 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

I'm good, I know for a fact (scripture)that this false teaching is wrong..

If alive at the time, we will go through the tribulation ,no if's and's or but's about it!!!!!

And I didn't call anyone a false teacher

Then can yu break down 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5?

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18 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Then can yu break down 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5?

But of course

Let's do this.

Start from Thess 4:17 ,from there we gotta get the subject,which is a couple verses above.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

This is the subject,those who have died,can you agree with that?

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Those who have died God brings back with Him.Do you agree with that?

The misunderstanding from a rapturist point of view is they think those whom Christ brings back were raptured,however that's not the case.They went to be with the Lord at death,proven from Ecclesiastes 

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

At death ALL souls return to the Father.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

We can't being alive when Christ returns go before those who sleep in Christ,for the the simple fact that they are already with Him.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. 

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Those that Christ bring with Him,have already been changed,those alive at that time will be changed to what those coming with Christ already are.

Those who died in Christ are spoken about in Revelations

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These are all those who have died throughout time for Christ and the Word of God,those that Christ brings with Him.

We have two bodies as Paul shows in Corinthians 

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

We will not all die before the return of Christ,however we all must be changed,why

I Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

When is the kingdom?

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This is the last trump spoken of by Paul at that time Christ as scripture says brings those from Heave to earth with Him.

 Not understanding your reference to Rev 12:5 ,what are you trying to show with that verse?

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Peace,

Ok, so you believe the entire Olivet Discourse has passed?

Shalom, Heb 13:8.

NO! Not at all! However, the majority HAS already transpired.

There are two sets of pronouns provided in the Greek translation of the Olivet Discourse. There are times when Yeshua` is DIRECTLY talking to His students sitting right there before Him on that mountain called Har HaZeitiym, the "Mountain of-the-Olives." These are the second-person, plural pronouns, translated as "ye," "you," "your," and "yours" in the English of King James I of England.

The second set are more third-person, plural, even more non-personal pronouns that are spoken when Yeshua`s vision looks out over the expanse of time to the more distant future.

This tells me that Yeshua` was not only telling them about the distant future but was also warning them about a more immediate threat that His students and their families would have to face in THEIR lifetimes!

Here's an example:

Matthew 24:9-14 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

In verse 9, He is talking directly to His students and uses the terms "you" and "ye."

By verse 10, He was already looking beyond their lifetimes and seeing the "many." Therefore, verse 9 was in their IMMEDIATE FUTURE, and verses 10-14 were about the span of time from their time period to the DISTANT FUTURE, ending with "the end."

Yeshua` makes this transition in speech several times within the Olivet Discourse. Those times when He was speaking about THEIR IMMEDIATE FUTURE are already fulfilled! The portions that are about the DISTANT FUTURE, especially "THE END," are yet to come.

That's as simple as I can make it.

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5 hours ago, n2thelight said:

But of course

Let's do this.

Start from Thess 4:17 ,from there we gotta get the subject,which is a couple verses above.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

This is the subject,those who have died,can you agree with that?

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Those who have died God brings back with Him.Do you agree with that?

The misunderstanding from a rapturist point of view is they think those whom Christ brings back were raptured,however that's not the case.They went to be with the Lord at death,proven from Ecclesiastes 

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

At death ALL souls return to the Father.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

We can't being alive when Christ returns go before those who sleep in Christ,for the the simple fact that they are already with Him.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. 

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Those that Christ bring with Him,have already been changed,those alive at that time will be changed to what those coming with Christ already are.

Those who died in Christ are spoken about in Revelations

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These are all those who have died throughout time for Christ and the Word of God,those that Christ brings with Him.

We have two bodies as Paul shows in Corinthians 

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

We will not all die before the return of Christ,however we all must be changed,why

I Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

When is the kingdom?

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This is the last trump spoken of by Paul at that time Christ as scripture says brings those from Heave to earth with Him.

 Not understanding your reference to Rev 12:5 ,what are you trying to show with that verse?

Shalom, n2thelight.

You are closer than most, but now you've got to learn a couple of other points:

First, "soul" is not the same as "spirit."

Second, the word "soul" means an "air-breathing creature."

The Hebrew word for "soul" is...

5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh). From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) -- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

(Everything past the dash, "--," are words that were used in the KJV to translate this ONE Hebrew word.)

It stems from the root verb, "naafash":

5314 naafash (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air) -- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(When Strong's says "passively," it means "reflexively.")

However, the Hebrew word translated "spirit" is...

7307 ruwach (roo'-akh). From ruwach (the verb form); wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions) -- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

This noun comes from its verb form,...

7306 ruwach (roo'-akh). A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy) -- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

God's WIND gave a puff of breath to the body He made, called "haa'aadaam" or "the man" or "Adam," and Adam became a living AIR-BREATHER. That's what Genesis 2:7 tells us:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(God was the first to use what we call today "CPR" or "CardioPulmonary Rescucitation.")

When we die, as you noted in ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (Hebrew: v-haaruwach = "and the breath; and the wind") shall return unto God who gave it.

It's PURELY PHYSICAL! There is no "immaterial part" mentioned in EITHER verse!

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12 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This is the last trump spoken of by Paul at that time Christ as scripture says brings those from Heave to earth with Him.

The seven angels are sounding the trumpets, but in 1 Thess 4:17 it's the archangel and with the trumpet call of God. I believe these are separate ranks of angels because we hear God himself (his voice) at rapture.

phóné: a voice, sound
Original Word: φωνή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: phóné
Phonetic Spelling: (fo-nay')
Short Definition: a sound, noise, voice
Definition: a sound, noise, voice, language, dialect.

Quote

 Not understanding your reference to Rev 12:5 ,what are you trying to show with that verse?

The word "harpazo" is in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5, and the entire chapter of Rev 12 is describing the 70th week. Rapture is prior to Satan being hurled to earth, Rev 12:7-9. Let's start with that.

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6 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

The seven angels are sounding the trumpets, but in 1 Thess 4:17 it's the archangel and with the trumpet call of God. I believe these are separate ranks of angels because we hear God himself (his voice) at rapture.

phóné: a voice, sound
Original Word: φωνή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: phóné
Phonetic Spelling: (fo-nay')
Short Definition: a sound, noise, voice
Definition: a sound, noise, voice, language, dialect.

The word "harpazo" is in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5, and the entire chapter of Rev 12 is describing the 70th week. Rapture is prior to Satan being hurled to earth, Rev 12:7-9. Let's start with that.

Shalom, Heb 13:8.

Okay, your turn. N2thelight was NOT wrong about the "Rapture." Let's look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 more carefully:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (Greek New Testament)

13 Ou thelomen de humas agnoein, adelfoi, peri toon koimoomenoon, hina mee lupeesthe kathoos kai hoi loipoi hoi mee echontes elpida.
14 ei gar pisteuomen hoti Ieesous apethanen kai anestee, houtoos kai ho Theos tous koimeethentas dia tou Ieesou axei sun autoo.
15 Touto gar humin legomen en logoo Kuriou hoti heemeis hoi zoontes hoi perileipomenoi eis teen parousian tou Kuriou ou mee fthasoomen tous koimeethentas
16 hoti autos ho Kurios en keleusmati en foonee archaggelou kai en salpiggi Theou, katabeesetai ap’ ouranou kai hoi nekroi en Christoo anasteesontai prooton,
17 epeita heemeis hoi zoontes hoi perileipomenoi hama sun autois harpageesometha en nefelais eis apanteesin tou Kuriou eis aera; kai houtoos pantote sun Kurioo esometha.

13 Ou = 13 Not
thelomen = I-do-want/wish
de = but
humas = you (plural)
agnoein, = without-knowledge,
adelfoi, = brothers (siblings),
peri = around/about
toon = the-(ones)
koimoomenoon, = having-fallen-asleep,
hina = so-that
mee = not
lupeesthe = you-should-be-grieved
kathoos = like/as
kai = and/also
hoi = the
loipoi = rest
hoi = the-(ones)
mee = not
echontes = having
elpida. = hope/confidence.
14 ei = 14 if
gar = for
pisteuomen = we-believe/trust
hoti = that
Ieesous = Yeshua`/Jesus
apethanen = died-off-(away-from)
kai = and/also
anestee, = rose-again,
houtoos = so
kai = and/also
ho = the
Theos = God
tous = of-the-(ones)
koimeethentas = having-fallen-asleep
dia = through
tou = the
Ieesou = Yeshua`/Jesus
axei = will-bring
sun = with
autoo. = him.
15 Touto = 15 This
gar = for
humin = to-you
legomen = we-say
en = in
logoo = a-word/subject
Kuriou = of-(the)-Lord
hoti = that
heemeis = we
hoi = the-(ones)
zoontes = living
hoi = the-(ones)
perileipomenoi = remaining
eis = into
teen = the
parousian = coming
tou = of-the
Kuriou = Lord
ou = not (+)
mee = not (-)
fthasoomen = we-shall-precede
tous = those
koimeethentas; = having-fallen-asleep;
16 hoti = 16 because
autos = himself
ho = the
Kurios = Lord
en = in
keleusmati = a-word-of-command/an-order
en = in
foonee = a-voice
archaggelou = of-[the]-chief-messenger
kai = and/also
en = in
salpiggi = a-trumpeting
Theou, = of-God,
katabeesetai = he-shall-come-down
ap’ (apo) = away-from/out-of
ouranou = [the]-sky
kai = and/also
hoi = the
nekroi = dead-(ones)
en = in
Christoo = Messiah/Christ
anasteesontai = will-stand-up
prooton, = first,
17 epeita = then
heemeis = we
hoi = the-(ones)
zoontes = living
hoi = the-(ones)
perileipomenoi = remaining
hama = together
sun = with
autois = them
harpageesometha = shall-be-snatched-away
en = in
nefelais = [the]-clouds
eis = into
apanteesin = (the)-meeting
tou = of-the
Kuriou = Lord
eis = into
aera; = (the)-air;
kai = and/also
houtoos = in-this-way
pantote = always
sun = with
Kurioo = (the)-Lord
esometha. = we-shall-be.

These verses say NOTHING about where we go after this "meeting in the air." And, if the Lord shall "come down "away-from or out-of the sky," why would He go back up?! (THINK about it! He's just come from the New Jerusalem who-knows-how-many miles away! Why would He make the trip back just to repeat the trip one more time after seven years, just to help us escape the "tribulation?!" No, it makes NO sense, especially when He is QUITE CAPABLE of protecting us THROUGH the disasters coming, and has DEMONSTRATED that ability in many examples, like Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-nego!)

The word "harpageesometha," stemming from "harpazoo," means "shall be snatched away" and has NO implication of an "upward" direction! The references to "the clouds" and "the air" merely refer to this earth's atmosphere and NO HIGHER!

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