The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[Michael37]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Incremental?  "Falling away?"  If this was what Paul had in mind, it would not help his argument. His argument is "how to know you are in the Day of the Lord and it has started."

It is not just any departing (apostasia), it is a very significant apostasia. That would mean something easily recognized as "Ah! That is what Paul was thinking of!"  But if Paul's real meaning was a falling away from truth, as so many imagine, how in the world would anyone know when "enough" had fallen away to meet Paul's intent?  The truth is, there are always some falling away from the church, but at the same time, there are always more coming into the truth of the gospel and being saved.  I just can't see a falling away as meeting Paul's intent. 

On the other hand, if Paul's intent was the departing of the church, that would be instantaneous, and extremely significant, and anyone left behind would know: "so this is what Paul wrote about!" This meaning fits the context much better. And it still fits the definition of the compound word, apostasia. Furthermore, it just makes good sense that GOOD restrains EVIL. It is truth.

Regarding "Incremental Apostasia", iamlamad.  This is the increasing movement away from the Biblical Christian Faith as delivered by Christ and the Apostles and Gospel and NT writers.

The current increment of apostasy has professing christians in same-sex relationships with the blessing of their denominations and congregations. Certain denominations ordain gay or lesbian clergy to lead congregations of deluded but professing christians. Paul simply wrote of a falling away that culminates in revelatory news of the man of sin/son of perdition. This is where the current increments of apostasia are leading, nothing fanciful, nothing that genuine Christians will deceived by. The mystery of iniquity is just as much at work now as in Paul's day. Until the last person destined to be saved is saved the Lord's return will be delayed.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Michael37
typo

[Salty]

There is solid proof that our Lord Jesus intends His Olivet discourse for His whole Church.

In Matthew 24 with the verses about Jesus' coming, and sending the angels to gather His saints, the Matthew 24 gathering version is different than the Mark 13 version. In Matthew 24, the saints are gathered from Heaven. In the Mark 13 version the saints are gathered from the earth.

What that means is that it aligns perfectly with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church. The "asleep" saints are gathered from Heaven, and Jesus brings them with Him like Paul said. Then the saints still alive on earth are gathered to Jesus in the Heavenly like Paul said. So to deny that in our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse is to deny it also in 1 Thessalonians 4 by Apostle Paul.

Thusly, those trying to use Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 being for Jews only, and thus as an excuse to discard our Lord Jesus' declaration of His coming to gather the Church after the tribulation, have actually setup a trap for themselves.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Salty

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Furthermore, it just makes good sense that GOOD restrains EVIL. It is truth.

Good sense or not it certainly isn't working out. 

But you'll see. There will be no pretrib 'rapture'.

The beast will rise to power through the permission of the Lord under the auspices of Satan, with the FP as shameless promoter; and many will fall away from our Father's love.

After this the beast will be revealed for what he truly is; evil incarnate.

Only then can the Lord come and the gathering occur.

[Michael37]

29 minutes ago, Diaste said:

After this the beast will be revealed for what he truly is; evil incarnate.

Truly both beasts metaphorically depict evil incarnate. 

The first beast rising from the sea of humanity (propensity for brutal tyranny) is a collective incarnation while the second beast that rises from the earth of vanity (propensity for self-idolatry) is an individual incarnation aka the son of perdition/man of sin/that Wicked and is the focus of 2 Thess 2.

2Th 2:3
(3)  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 

2Th 2:8
(8)  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

How the revealing is accomplished and to whom is something I believe can be extrapolated from existing information.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Michael37
word sense

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Since this writer keeps putting wrong things first, lets compare his theory with the WORD:

All translations agree that it is the apostasia that must come first. I challenge this writer to find any translation that has anything but the apostasia first.  By the way, for those that understand common sense, only ONE EVENT can come "first" unless two events happen at the exact same time.

For the readers: which would fit the rapture coming first and being "gone from the midst" versus a falling away one at a time being "gone from the midst?" 

Ah, so instead of facts you appeal to the consensus. Weak.

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 It is only imagination and preconceptions that you put the DAY and the gathering together, as if they are synonomous terms.

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him," 2 Thess 2:1. Deny all you like, Paul said it, not me. Paul goes on to say the day, the moment the Lord comes and the moment of the gathering, will not happen except the rebellion and the revealing happen first. 

It's odd that you think the rebellion is an event like kicking a field goal. A rebellion is always a happening of the course of time. Rebellion begins as a seed in the mind and like a virus spreads to other minds; only noticed once the pathogen has infected large enough numbers. Only then, suddenly, does the population storm the palace. This 'falling away' will occur over time and the culmination will be the revealing of the beast, after he has enticed millions of former believers to follow him.

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Did you ever consider what the Old Testament has to say about THE DAY? It will be a DARK day of DESTRUCTION with God's intent to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. 

So? This proves...what? That's it's impossible for the gathering to occur at this time? You do realize the Day of the Lord is not just one single 24 hour period? It begins on a day but ultimately reaches out a thousands years and to eternity. The gathering can happen in a single moment, the tick of a clock, in the span of mere thought. So what if the Day of the Lord is what you say it is? How does that negate a gathering that occurs in the blink of an eye at the commencement of at least many months of the Day of the Lord?

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The "restraining" is the preventing of the man of sin to enter the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews UNTIL THE PROPER TIME. 

It is a 'departing', from a belief system. And no, the holding back is the falling away of the people of God to the camp of the beast and the declaration of the beast that he is god, that must occur before the gathering and the coming of our Lord.

 

[Diaste]

5 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Truly both beasts metaphorically depict evil incarnate. 

Not metaphorical.

 

5 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

How the revealing is accomplished and to whom is something I believe can be extrapolated from existing information.

Were we supposed to extrapolate from non-existing information? That's just called make-believe. Something in which many here engage. I would hope we all deduce only from that information which exists.

[Michael37]

5 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Not metaphorical.

So physical, literal in 3D??? Might look good in a movie. Certainly a spiritual entity comprised of the sum total of the brutal tyranny of unregenerate humanity.

 

8 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Were we supposed to extrapolate from non-existing information? That's just called make-believe. Something in which many here engage. I would hope we all deduce only from that information which exists.

My point precisely. Thanks for the recap.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Certainly a spiritual entity comprised of the sum total of the brutal tyranny of unregenerate humanity.

Mankind is a dupe of the driving spiritual forces governing the usurpation of the sovereignty of God. That takeover seeks all creation. Man was not created evil, he was beguiled and made a choice and henceforth acted based on the sin of evil in the blood, passed down from the first man. That evil emanates from fallen Lucifer. The beast will be the conduit that pours out the fury of that fundamental evil found in Lucifer, planet wide, without respect to persons. Likely the beast is reanimated through possession of a spiritual being and all the evil, the hate, the fury, the grotesque ambition, born of thought and evil desire, will be made manifest in the physical world. The evil is real. The effects are felt. Not a metaphor.

[Michael37]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

Mankind is a dupe of the driving spiritual forces governing the usurpation of the sovereignty of God. That takeover seeks all creation. Man was not created evil, he was beguiled and made a choice and henceforth acted based on the sin of evil in the blood, passed down from the first man. That evil emanates from fallen Lucifer. The beast will be the conduit that pours out the fury of that fundamental evil found in Lucifer, planet wide, without respect to persons. Likely the beast is reanimated through possession of a spiritual being and all the evil, the hate, the fury, the grotesque ambition, born of thought and evil desire, will be made manifest in the physical world. The evil is real. The effects are felt. Not a metaphor.

It's a metaphor for me, D. So is Isaiah 64:8 God is the potter, we are the clay.

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, you are our father; we are the clay, and you our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

When Christ called the Pharisees vipers - metaphor.

When Paul wrote (1Co 3:9) "You are God's building" - metaphor.

When Jesus said (John 15:5) " I am the vine you are the branches" - metaphor.

The beast from the sea metaphor gets really interesting in Revelation 17 when its 7 metaphorical heads morph into 7 metaphorical mountains -

Rev 17:3
(3)  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:7-9
(7)  And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and ten horns.
(8)  The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(9)  And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
 

By etymology and definition a metaphor is a figure of speech that carries the meaning across from the likeness of something to the thing it describes as in Revelation 13 - where similies also occur with the beast being like or similar to a leopard in its propensity to swiftness of movement, and having feet as those of a bear in its propensity to powerfully attack with heavy weaponry, and his mouth being as that of a lion in its propensity to intimidate with bold and loud statements.

Rev 13:1-2
(1)  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
(2)  And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
 

Figures of speech using physical realities to illustrate spiritual realities - happens all through the Bible.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Michael37 said:

It's a metaphor for me, D. So is Isaiah 64:8 God is the potter, we are the clay.

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, you are our father; we are the clay, and you our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

When Christ called the Pharisees vipers - metaphor.

When Paul wrote (1Co 3:9) "You are God's building" - metaphor.

When Jesus said (John 15:5) " I am the vine you are the branches" - metaphor.

The beast from the sea metaphor gets really interesting in Revelation 17 when its 7 metaphorical heads morph into 7 metaphorical mountains -

Rev 17:3
(3)  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:7-9
(7)  And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and ten horns.
(8)  The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(9)  And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
 

By etymology and definition a metaphor is a figure of speech that carries the meaning across from the likeness of something to the thing it describes as in Revelation 13 - where similies also occur with the beast being like or similar to a leopard in its propensity to swiftness of movement, and having feet as those of a bear in its propensity to powerfully attack with heavy weaponry, and his mouth being as that of a lion in its propensity to intimidate with bold and loud statements.

Rev 13:1-2
(1)  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
(2)  And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
 

Figures of speech using physical realities to illustrate spiritual realities - happens all through the Bible.

And the wise will easily discern the difference as the comparisons manifest in reality. Or did you think these comparisons are simply literary devices existing only in print?

Both God and we, exist. The metaphor is the comparison of the interaction. We are not literal clay, but we are molded into His image as a potter slowly shapes his creation.

Once you get into Rev 17 it seems you mean allegory and not metaphor. And that was my mistake earlier, you seem to be viewing this as allegory and I was wrong to use the concept of metaphor.

In any case the symbols used illustrate future events will morph into physical reality, we just don't see it very clearly, yet.