Only the Dead in Christ Return With Him

[Philadelphianlady]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is very clear.

¹³ But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. ¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I don't understand where the pre-trib. notion started, but the Bible is quiet clear. Only those already with Him, are returning with him, not those alive Christians caught up in some secret rapture having nothing to do with the return of Christ. The rapture has to do with HIS RETURN.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

"I don't understand where the pre-trib. notion started, but the Bible is quiet clear. Only those already with Him, are returning with him, not those alive Christians caught up in some secret rapture having nothing to do with the return of Christ. The rapture has to do with HIS RETURN"

 

Read it again .... both the dead in Christ and the living believers are caught up together .... in a instant, in the twinkling of an eye

[Philadelphianlady]

The bodies of the dead raise at that time and put on immortality. But the spirits of the dead in Christ return with Him. The alive do not come back with Him.

[Daniel 11:36]

You are dead wrong 

[Philadelphianlady]

22 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

This says otherwise (yes, I know it was already quoted):

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NASB, emphasis mine

"Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. " doesn't mean "the living will be left behind and left out". You CANNOT claim otherwise unless you are willing to directly contradict what has been said in this passage.

Not to mention: because of this passage, the Rapture cannot be "post-trib".  Otherwise, there would be no one left in their mortal bodies to have children and populate the Millennium (keep in mind that those who march on the camp of the saints in Rev. 20 are a tremendous number, and no one who has been translated into eternity will turn on the Lord.).

Even though you read it that way, I see it just the opposite. If there was a rapture seven years (or even 3 1/2) before Christ returns, then the alive would return with the dead, not meet them in the air at the second coming.

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 5:58 PM, Philadelphianlady said:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is very clear.

¹³ But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. ¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I don't understand where the pre-trib. notion started, but the Bible is quiet clear. Only those already with Him, are returning with him, not those alive Christians caught up in some secret rapture having nothing to do with the return of Christ. The rapture has to do with HIS RETURN.

 

No, that is not true.  The Return of Jesus occurs as described in Rev. 19.   That is NOT what is described at all in I Thess. 4:13-18.  There is NO way to reconcile those two passages as referring to the same event. 

Secondly, why would there be a rapture at the 2nd coming?  That makes no sense.

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, that is not true.  The Return of Jesus occurs as described in Rev. 19.   That is NOT what is described at all in I Thess. 4:13-18.  There is NO way to reconcile those two passages as referring to the same event. 

No? I Thess 4, "15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."

This is the 2nd coming.

Matt 24

"30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

 1Thess 4

" 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Similarities:

The Lord comes down from heaven.

The Trumpet.

The Lord in the clouds and the living believers meet Him and the risen dead in the clouds.

And of course the gathering itself.

If  1 Thess 4 is the rapture something is wrong with the doctrine. This passage shows it it neither 'imminent' nor comes like a thief. We see the Lord descend, we hear the trump of God, we hear the voice of the archangel. These are 3 prophesied events that occur before the dead are raised just prior to the living being translated and transformed. In any case both passages depict the same events, The 2nd coming and the Gathering of the Elect.

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Secondly, why would there be a rapture at the 2nd coming?  That makes no sense.

What? So then Matt 24:30-31 make no sense?

"30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." This is the 2nd coming.

"31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." This is the 'rapture'.

Notice the conjunction 'and' leading off v 31. In addition to the 2nd coming the elect are gathered from all over the earth. This may not be the 'rapture' the pretrib believers are anticipating, it is the only gathering extant; and the only gathering that will occur.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

9 minutes ago, Diaste said:

No? I Thess 4, "15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."

This is the 2nd coming.

No, it is not the 2nd Coming and it bears no resemblance to Rev. 19.   That's why you jump over Matt. 24.   You can't actually refute that basic fact.   And like I said, the rapture makes no sense at the 2nd  coming.  

 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Not to mention: because of this passage, the Rapture cannot be "post-trib".  Otherwise, there would be no one left in their mortal bodies to have children and populate the Millennium (keep in mind that those who march on the camp of the saints in Rev. 20 are a tremendous number, and no one who has been translated into eternity will turn on the Lord.).

There is a group that is not gathered  to meet the Lord in the air at the 2nd coming.

Zech 14, "2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake^a in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him."

It's also not said that every person on the planet that was not gathered is dead.

We know that Israel has at least one important duty after the last battle of the end of the age.

 Ezekiel 39

"11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. 12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. 13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD. 14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search. 15  And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog. 16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land."

The quoted argument is not as strong as one would think.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

"And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." This is the 'rapture'"

 

 

 

No, this is not the rapture

This trumpet call will sound after the tribulation of those days and those gathered at the time will be the saved mortal survivors of the period from all over the earth .... under the heavens

You are stuck in post tribulation thinking and do not see the time frame correctly

 

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Daniel 11:36