Problem with evolution

[SerenelyBlue]

I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God (himself God) and that he sacrificed his life to take the punishment for the sins of those who have faith in him.  I do however believe in evolution.  Are there others like me here?  More liberal Christians?  Do you frown upon people who believe in evolution?

[RockyMidnight]

4 hours ago, SerenelyBlue said:

I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God (himself God) and that he sacrificed his life to take the punishment for the sins of those who have faith in him.  I do however believe in evolution.  Are there others like me here?  More liberal Christians?  Do you frown upon people who believe in evolution?

Hello SerenelyBlue. Before I was born again, science was my "religion". I mean, who could argue with what can be proven right? Well, actually wrong, as science was the reason I became born again.  After becoming a believer, what became obvious to me is that science simple "discovers" the laws of nature God ordained, and how these laws explain much of what we observe in physical reality.

The biggest problem (IMHO) for folks to see the compatability of scripture and science is I think the concept of time. For evolutionists, obviously there seems to be a divide in the timeline between creation and evolution simply too great to reconcile. This would be correct IF time was itself a constant. Yet through the science of physics and quantum physics we know time is relative, so that what appears to be 14 billion years from the human perspective, is in fact simultaneous from God's perspective. Yes, many unbelievers will tell you this is a cop out, but science disagrees.

Look at Einstein's Relativity, where time is relative to the observer. It can actually speed up and slow down depending upon your position and speed in space, to the point where you could leave this world on a space voyage and return, from your point of observation a few years later, yet your children could have become older that you in every sense of aging.

If you consider the very first physical component of this existence that God created, it was light. He created it even before the earth and universe had form. If you traveled (if you could that is) at the speed of light you would never encounter time. You would not even know the concept of time because at the speed of light time simply does not exist. Yet, here we are with  "tons" of evidence for evolution. 

Science is what's called deterministic, which means that science looks for evidence in nature that is consistent, provable, predictable, and constant. A chemical reaction between two elements occurred the same way billions of years ago as it occurs today. The interaction of all matter and all energy with each other likewise happened from the beginning just as as it happens today. God by His very Essence, is deterministic too. He cannot change. He is the exact same God from the beginning as He is today; completely immutable. So ultimately the big question is , for science anyway, what was the first cause? What happened that set up a deterministic universe and allowed it to "evolve"? 

For believers, obviously God is the first cause of this universe and all evidence of evolutionary processes, just as God is the first cause of all the laws of nature. Science is still blank on it's first cause in so much as having a reasonable explanation for that first cause.  Yes, there are theories, but little to support the theories of those theories! When you factor in the incomprehensible actions/interactions/processes/variety of inorganic-organic structures/the various forms of energy (electromagnetic spectrum)/the sub atomic, atomic, molecular structures that must exist (to support the existence of all the inorganic-organic structures)/ the shear complexity and magnitude of it all to happen precisely as it does becomes scientific evidence for a first cause that at least indicates a high probability for intelligent design. Not just evolution of life, but evolution of all that has to take place for this universe and all it contains to exist as physically real exactly as we observe it. So, it's OK to believe what science says about evolution as long as you understand the evolutionary process was conceived and established by God's mind, His Thoughts, His Attributes, His Creation. There is no conflict. The conflict is for those who insist God does not exist, which of course could, itself, never happen if God did not make them! Love the irony!

Cheers!!!

Edited August 4, 2018 by RockyMidnight

[SerenelyBlue]

10 minutes ago, RockyMidnight said:

Hello SerenelyBlue. Before I was born again, science was my "religion". I mean, who could argue with what can be proven right? Well, actually wrong, as science was the reason I became born again.  After becoming a believer, what became obvious to me is that science simple "discovers" the laws of nature God ordained, and how these laws explain much of what we observe in physical reality.

The biggest problem (IMHO) for folks to see the compatability of scripture and science is I think the concept of time. For evolutionists, obviously there seems to be a divide in the timeline between creation and evolution simply too great to reconcile. This would be correct IF time was itself a constant. Yet through the science of physics and quantum physics we know time is relative, so that what appears to be 14 billion years from the human perspective, is in fact simultaneous from God's perspective. Yes, many unbelievers will tell you this is a cop out, but science disagrees.

Look at Einstein's Relativity, where time is relative to the observer. It can actually speed up and slow down depending upon your position and speed in space, to the point where you could leave this world on a space voyage and return, from your point of observation a few years later, yet your children could have become older that you in every sense of aging.

If you consider the very first physical component of this existence that god created, it was light. He created it even before the earth and universe had form. If you traveled (if you could that is) at the speed of light you would never encounter time. You would not even know the concept of time because at the speed of light time simply does not exist. Yet, here we are with  "tons" of evidence for evolution. 

Science is what's called deterministic, which means that science looks for evidence in nature that is consistent, provable, predictable, and constant. A chemical reaction between two elements occurred the same way billions of years ago as it occurs today. The interaction of all matter and all energy with each other likewise happened from the beginning just as as it happens today. God by His very Essence, is deterministic too. He cannot change. He is the exact same God from the beginning as He is today; completely immutable. So ultimately the big question is , for science anyway, what was the first cause? What happened that set up a deterministic universe and allowed it to "evolve"? 

For believers, obviously God is the first cause of this universe and all evidence of evolutionary processes, just as God is the first cause of all the laws of nature. Science is still blank on it's first cause in so much as having a reasonable explanation for that first cause.  Yes, there are theories, but little to support the theories of those theories! When you factor in the incomprehensible actions/interactions/processes/variety of inorganic-organic structures/the various forms of energy (electromagnetic spectrum)/the sub atomic, atomic, molecular structures that must exist (to support the existence of all the inorganic-organic structures)/ the shear complexity and magnitude of it all to happen precisely as it does becomes scientific evidence for a first cause that at least indicates a high probability for intelligent design. Not just evolution of life, but evolution of all that has to take place for this universe and all it contains to exist as physically real exactly as we observe it. So, it's OK to believe what science says about evolution as long as you understand the evolutionary process was conceived and established by God's mind, His Thoughts, His Attributes, His Creation. There is no conflict. The conflict is for those who insist God does not exist, which of course could, itself, never happen if God did not make them! Love the irony!

Cheers!!!

Thank you very much for your eloquent answer.

[Angelfishie]

13 hours ago, SerenelyBlue said:

 I do however believe in evolution.  Are there others like me here?  More liberal Christians?  Do you frown upon people who believe in evolution?

Me too SBlue! I come from a very  intellectual family who were not particularly academic, however I've worked and lived with academic people and spaces now for close to 25 years and I too,  understanding the actual term and scientific implications, believe evolution takes place all the time all around us.

It makes complete sense to me that God who made first instances of things that self-replicate would instigate processes (like evolution) that self-propel. There's absolutely no conflict for me between these two ideas. 

[SerenelyBlue]

3 hours ago, Angelfishie said:

Me too SBlue! I come from a very  intellectual family who were not particularly academic, however I've worked and lived with academic people and spaces now for close to 25 years and I too,  understanding the actual term and scientific implications, believe evolution takes place all the time all around us.

It makes complete sense to me that God who made first instances of things that self-replicate would instigate processes (like evolution) that self-propel. There's absolutely no conflict for me between these two ideas. 

Thank you

[enoob57]

The problem with evolution is that it manipulates the Word of God from plain speaking to allegory which violates any hermeneutical approach to the Word of God... destroy the plain sense of Genesis and Exodus and the rest of God's Word becomes a usury of men to their own thoughts an fantasies... 

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

The problem with evolution is that it manipulates the Word of God from plain speaking to allegory which violates any hermeneutical approach to the Word of God... destroy the plain sense of Genesis and Exodus and the rest of God's Word becomes a usury of men to their own thoughts an fantasies... 

Not to mention the cruelty of the interim species as they 'adapted' and died out horrible half-formed deaths - how then an offspring?

Look at the source - Darwin, who even admitted that he could not quite understand.

Intelligentsia, space aliens, evolution and the like stem from the same source. Oh, many are quite real, but not as explained in the pop-clever-press; especially the post-modern turn of phrase that defies logic. It often sounds 'convincing' but is just a mish-mash of second-hand thoughts that are poorly reasoned, but well parroted.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Justin Adams

[frienduff thaylorde]

The problem with EVILUTION is this ,    ITS THE WISDOM OF MEN , OF THE WORLD .     Need I even say more than that .

If any man desire to be wise , let him become a fool to this worlds wisdom .

 

[Angelfishie]

Ok, so here's a thing that keeps happening when conversations about this particular issue arise; if the people having this conversation come from a science/biology background or arena they tend to have this dictionary definition for the word evolution, in mind:

Evolution

3. Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.

Which does not refute the existence of God, or specifically promote or purport the idea that man evolved from apes.

Thing is we can SEE the process of biological evolution happen in specific animals (the rats in London's sewer system are an excellent example), over just a few years, so if you ask me, it definitely exists. 

Theories, like those of ape to man evolution, are just that, theories.  Extrapolated, projected and calculated ideas that "go well" with the things we can prove.  There are several theories connected to the study of the biological process of evolution. Many of them are complete rubbish and some are pure conjecture. But they are theories so some of them are bound to be nonsense and completely unprovable.

Most people who are not from a science/biology background will actually be discussing the veracity of just one or two of these theories, which are related to the field of study; evolutionary biology, AND NOT the biological process to which the actual term "evolution" refers.  And this is why I believe there is so much disconnect over this topic.

SO: to clarify: I do not believe that humans evolved from apes.  I do not believe that there is sufficient evidence in the fossil record to support such a claim. I do however totally accept and believe that the biological evolutionary process does exist and operates on a daily basis in all types of species worldwide.

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Angelfishie

[Still Alive]

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 12:31 PM, SerenelyBlue said:

I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God (himself God) and that he sacrificed his life to take the punishment for the sins of those who have faith in him.  I do however believe in evolution.  Are there others like me here?  More liberal Christians?  Do you frown upon people who believe in evolution?

I don't believe "in" evolution. I do believe that evolution in various forms takes place. However, there is nowhere near as much evidence to support it as some would have you believe. Science is about hypotheses, which become theories, which can be proven or disproven. Most of what lay people think of when they think of evolution is not disprovable. i.e. it is not yet science.

I also tend to believe that what is really happening is de-evolution. What we know happens is not evolution, but mutation. In established life as we know it today, there are lots of examples of mutation, but it is never good, beyond the "micro" level.

Evolution tries to explain similarities between species which can even more easily be explained by creation. Do a couple of species share some dna or trait? Great. And several models of car from the same manufacturer share the same door handle and many other parts. That is due to design, not evolution.

And irreducible complexity can not be ignored. We used to use the eyeball, but now DNA, and the many functions behind that, blow the eye away. It is, for all intents and purposes, computer code, and replicated in every cell of every body, generation after generation. Evolutionists underestimate the complexity of life. The more we know, the messier evolution theory becomes.

Could evolution have happened? Technically, yes. But that doesn't mean that man evolved from something else.