We Don't Do Sermons

[The_Patriot21]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Howzit going in Wyoming, Patriot2018...?

By the 4th century the influence of paganism within the Christian community due to new converts being reluctant to leave their customs behind led to rituals, robes, and orations being accepted as necessary in their meetings.  

2Peter 2:1-3
(1)  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
(2)  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
(3)  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.
 

It is biblical to generate awareness of the discrepancies in the way Christians worship. People who accept anything because it is spoken from a pulpit or by a denominationally approved person are of course content to keep the status quo, but those who experience dissonance and discern disparities in the agendas of institutionally structured congregations are likely to go looking for an alternative. 

Yeah...still doesn't show why sermons are wrong, sorry.

[Michael37]

27 minutes ago, The_Patriot2018 said:

Yeah...still doesn't show why sermons are wrong, sorry.

The idea that the paid professional is the fount of all spiritual wisdom and knowledge and should be the only one recognised as speaking with Scriptural authority amongst believers in an ecclesia, doing so week after week for years at a time in a style originally found among non-christian orators and philosophers is not biblical.

1. The "priesthood" of all believers is relegated to the "audience" of all believers.

2. The interactive dynamic of the Holy Spirit that nurtures whole body participation is replaced with the inactive lethagy of the human spirit.  

3. Listening to "a good sermon" becomes a listener's prerequisite for spiritual growth. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Michael37
word added

[The_Patriot21]

24 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

The idea that the paid professional is the fount of all spiritual wisdom and knowledge and should be the only one recognised as speaking with Scriptural authority amongst believers in an ecclesia, doing so week after week for years at a time in a style originally found among non-christian orators and philosophers is not biblical.

1. The "priesthood" of all believers is relegated to the "audience" of all believers.

2. The interactive dynamic of the Holy Spirit that nurtures whole body participation is replaced with the inactive lethagy of the human spirit.  

3. Listening to "a good sermon" becomes a listener's prerequisite for spiritual growth. 

well, first off, your thoughts arnt actually biblical. The Bible does put in place Bishops, or overseers over the church, and they have very specific job descriptions, and are "professionals" in every sense of the word (the job description is listed in 1 timothy chapter 3) 

and their charge is to lead, and to teach. Whether it be in the way your church does it, or whether they have traditional sermons, well, the Bible doesn't specify, though its important to note, that every apostle in the Bible, preached many a sermon. In fact, Jesus Himself preached many a sermon-the most famous of which is in mathew chapters 5-7.

so you see, all youve presented is a different method of church structure, not explained why traditional preachers teaching sermons is wrong. Both church structures utilize a shepherd, or overseer, or at least I hope yours does, if it does not its clearly NOT following the Biblical method, but I'm going to assume it does, because Im assuming that it follows Biblical teachings. Now, I dont think that churches have to follow the traditional method many do today of a church fellowship time of praise and worship and then sermons-that "template" certainly isnt commanded in the Bible (though neither is it against the Bible) the Bible does specify that believers 

A Not forsake the fellowship. Be active with other believers and part of the church, and fellowship means a lot more then just spending a couple hours together on sundays.

B Teach Gods word, and encourage others to join the flock

C Follow Biblical guidelines on how the church is to be formed, including church leadership, which includes a pastor/overseer, elders, and Deacons.

D Worship God together and seek His will.

Some things like template, well, no theres nowhere in the Bible that says you have to have 20 minutes of praise and worship including "amazing grace" and "how sweet the sound" and be followed by a 30 minute sermon. But, theres nothing that says you cant either, and even if you are to go by that template, that shouldnt be all that church is.

So regardless of the format your church follows in its method of worship, I do pray that it follows a Biblical method of leadership. If it does not have a biblical leadership team, then it is not a Biblical church. its as simple as that.

Edited August 20, 2018 by The_Patriot2018

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 2:30 AM, Michael37 said:

Looking forward to koinonia on Sunday. Be travelling away this week.

No-one will be doing a sermon.

We don't do sermons at our ekklesia (assembly).

We do paraklēsis (exhortation).

We do oikodomē  (edification).

We do diakonia (ministry).

But we don't do sermons.

No sermons.

How do you like them apples? 

Actually, what you have provided is the textbook definition of what comprises a sermon.   You clearly don't know what a sermon is.  So yes, you "do" sermons regardless of what you call it.

[Michael37]

29 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Actually, what you have provided is the textbook definition of what comprises a sermon.   You clearly don't know what a sermon is.  So yes, you "do" sermons regardless of what you call it.

There's a difference between the preaching and teaching of Jesus and the Apostles and the oration of homilies known as sermons. I haven't provided a sermon which is why your participation in the discussion isn't precluded, shiloh357.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Michael37
spelling

[Guest shiloh357]

16 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

There's a difference between the preaching and teaching of Jesus and the Apostles and the oration of homilies known as sermons. I haven't provided a sermon which is why your participation in the discussion isn't precluded, shiloh357.

A sermon is not a homily.   The purpose of a sermon is to exhort, not to teach.  It's purpose is build up, encourage and exhort.  A sermon is not an "oration."  You seem to be operating from a faulty understanding of what a sermon is and it is supposed to do.   There are preachers who use sermons as "teachings" and/or they use them to address what I call, "pastoral counseling" matters like raising kids, or overcoming bad habits, breaking addictions and so on.  But those are not sermons. 

So in all actuality, your churches does employ sermons, even if that is not what you are calling them.

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, The_Patriot2018 said:

well, first off, your thoughts arnt actually biblical. The Bible does put in place Bishops, or overseers over the church, and they have very specific job descriptions, and are "professionals" in every sense of the word (the job description is listed in 1 timothy chapter 3) 

and their charge is to lead, and to teach. Whether it be in the way your church does it, or whether they have traditional sermons, well, the Bible doesn't specify, though its important to note, that every apostle in the Bible, preached many a sermon. In fact, Jesus Himself preached many a sermon-the most famous of which is in mathew chapters 5-7.

so you see, all youve presented is a different method of church structure, not explained why traditional preachers teaching sermons is wrong. Both church structures utilize a shepherd, or overseer, or at least I hope yours does, if it does not its clearly NOT following the Biblical method, but I'm going to assume it does, because Im assuming that it follows Biblical teachings. Now, I dont think that churches have to follow the traditional method many do today of a church fellowship time of praise and worship and then sermons-that "template" certainly isnt commanded in the Bible (though neither is it against the Bible) the Bible does specify that believers 

A Not forsake the fellowship. Be active with other believers and part of the church, and fellowship means a lot more then just spending a couple hours together on sundays.

B Teach Gods word, and encourage others to join the flock

C Follow Biblical guidelines on how the church is to be formed, including church leadership, which includes a pastor/overseer, elders, and Deacons.

D Worship God together and seek His will.

Some things like template, well, no theres nowhere in the Bible that says you have to have 20 minutes of praise and worship including "amazing grace" and "how sweet the sound" and be followed by a 30 minute sermon. But, theres nothing that says you cant either, and even if you are to go by that template, that shouldnt be all that church is.

So regardless of the format your church follows in its method of worship, I do pray that it follows a Biblical method of leadership. If it does not have a biblical leadership team, then it is not a Biblical church. its as simple as that.

The words "clergy" and "laity" are not in the Bible, nor is the division created by using the functions of minister, elder, pastor, and bishop for titles to elevate those who should be serving in humility. The ministry college that I attended back in 1989 had this weird idea that leaders had to keep all those "under" them at arms length to preserve the mystique of the "ministry".

Leaders are in place to guide and if necessary arbitrate, but never to dictate.

The Church of The Nazarene was founded by a disgruntled minister who had rifts and disagreements with both a Methodist denomination and a missions organisation. The imposition of one man's structure is usually at the root of new denominations, as with the Methodists, the Salvation Army, the Lutheran, the Reformed Churches, the Mormon cult, the JW cult...may as well say it ...denominations and institutions are inherently flawed from the day they are formed.

Far from forsaking fellowship our ekklesia embraces and cherishes it. We encourage everyone one we can to follow Christ. Just yesterday and the day before my fellowlabourer and I evangelised as we went about our work and travels, speaking of Christ, His Word and His Gift of Eternal Life.

I would much rather the Holy Spirit formed local ekklesiae and put elders and overseers in place than have a committee work up a constitution and appoint hirelings, thanks all the same.

Bedtime...May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God our Father, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you. Amen ☺️

   

Edited August 20, 2018 by Michael37
missing word

[Sevenseas]

14 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Sevenseas, Good of you to rejoin the discussion. Our group was established about eight years ago to meet the fellowship needs of those who wanted more than the once-a-week passive pew-sitting pulpit-dominated programmed-performance style of assembly. I've already stated the previous leadership experience of those who participate. No-one is winging anything, what would be the point, for what purpose, given that we are about edifying one another. I could quote varoius Scriptures about how the body edifies itself in love and how we are to edify one another, but unless you are sitting in a pew hearing from a professional they would not be biblical according to your stance.

I started this thread to generate discussion, this being a forum for discussion. Thanks for joining it.   

 

I joined it because I have lived both sides of the coin you are minting

listen...no one...I repeat no one...dislikes a saved and satisfied kind of church more than I

I could quote scriptures to support ANY view...I know the Bible well enough to do that...HOWEVER I don't think that is the point

BALANCE is required and necessary and feelings are not what drives the truth

I can guarantee you there is more error in how you group operate than you are aware of

and this?

Quote

but unless you are sitting in a pew hearing from a professional they would not be biblical according to your stance.

from you regarding what I think or how I perceive things?

is most definitely error.  bigtime.

I caution and I will continue to caution until I no longer breathe on this planet about the excess and abuse of spiritual gifts and the fact that people have run amuck with them and I believe in the gifts, as God grants them, through the power of His Spirit.  HOWEVER it seems Pauls instructions on the use of those gifts is pretty much ignored because 'we' don't want to cramp the Holy Spirit...IN SPITE OF the FACT that much of what is seen is NOT the HOly Spirit

 

do you hear yourself telling me what it is you say I am doing?  that alone is big red flag.  you have no clue what I am doing because I have not said what I am doing

however you have.  YOU have stated how you operate within your group and it seems you tend to think that if someone does not agree with your exhortations and other phenomena, they must be collecting dust in a pew in a church that has not experienced God for the last 100 years

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Sevenseas
spelling

[walla299]

Looks like everyone else beat me to a reply. Thanks for that. 

To Michael37:

Sling scripture all you like, but what the others have posted is true. I'm never going to agree with you on what you're advocting because it goes against what the apostles gave us in the NT for church structure - house church or otherwise. So we're going to disagree on that - it'll get settled for certain at the Bema. That should at least make you or anyone else stop and think.

Also, any more insults of churches, pastors, or believers will be reported as others have said. I've seen a lot in my walk with the Lord, so I'll pass on a warning I was given during an extremely bad period in my life: Never let either unforgiveness or bitterness stay long. They will eat your soul like cancer. Turns out that warning was true, and biblical.

[The_Patriot21]

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

The words "clergy" and "laity" are not in the Bible, nor is the division created by using the functions of minister, elder, pastor, and bishop for titles to elevate those who should be serving in humility. The ministry college that I attended back in 1989 had this weird idea that leaders had to keep all those "under" them at arms length to preserve the mystique of the "ministry".

Leaders are in place to guide and if necessary arbitrate, but never to dictate.

The Church of The Nazarene was founded by a disgruntled minister who had rifts and disagreements with both a Methodist denomination and a missions organisation. The imposition of one man's structure is usually at the root of new denominations, as with the Methodists, the Salvation Army, the Lutheran, the Reformed Churches, the Mormon cult, the JW cult...may as well say it ...denominations and institutions are inherently flawed from the day they are formed.

Far from forsaking fellowship our ekklesia embraces and cherishes it. We encourage everyone one we can to follow Christ. Just yesterday and the day before my fellowlabourer and I evangelised as we went about our work and travels, speaking of Christ, His Word and His Gift of Eternal Life.

I would much rather the Holy Spirit formed local ekklesiae and put elders and overseers in place than have a committee work up a constitution and appoint hirelings, thanks all the same.

Bedtime...May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God our Father, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you. Amen ☺️

   

Did you try 1 Timothy 3? Pretty much destroys your entire argument. With that, im out.