Church of Christ? What do you think?

[Still Alive]

I should expand in one way: You mentioned Adam and Eve. He gave them permission to do whatever they wanted, except he gave a specific prohibition from a thing. This may be why I look for specific prohibitions, but not specific permission. 

[DWH2003]

On 9/5/2018 at 11:06 AM, Still Alive said:

I completely agree. I don't see this as a blank check. Rather, I see it as the equivalent of God saying, "Yes, you can travel." And when Henry Ford started producing Model T's, I have the complete permission by God to buy one, that I may travel farther and faster, and, eventually, win at Indianapolis!

Christians are free, indeed. It is permissible unless God says it isn't. And sometimes it is specific "thou shalt nots" and sometimes it is implied. But I don't need Specific permission in my day to day activities and how I worship him. It's why I see it as worship as I ride my mower and watch my chickens hunt down and gobble down the grasshoppers it disturbs. It's very entertaining and I thank God for creating me and the environment he created this body for, as well as my ability to appreciate it, as well as good worship music accompanied by skilled musicians. 

Though a-capella can be nice as well, if done right. 

There is a pattern we are commanded to hold to in Christ (2 Tim. 1:13).  That pattern includes making sure taht whatever we do is by His authority before acting (Col. 3:17).  We are not to even think beyond what is written (1 Cor. 4:6).  Even thoughts can be sinful!  We are to walk by faith (1 Cor. 5:6).  Faith is revealed, not made up as we go (Rom. 10:17).  Silence is not permission (Heb. 7:14; 15:24).  We cannot assume to have authority...  Sadly, many use "freedom" as a "cloak of wickedness", as a "justification" to do things that are wrong before God (Gal 5:13; 1 Peter 2:16).

Whether it be a command or a prohibition, authority is expressed as either a generic or a specific.  For example, God did not just say "worship God" and leave it up to us how to worship.  God specified:  "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24)

Sincerity and truth are required. Sincerity, is obviously the heart.  But  that alone is not enough.  Truth is required also. God's word is truth (John 17:17).  Thus, to worship acceptably before God (it is about Him after all!), we must first find out what He says is acceptable worship.

 

I challenge you to find a NT passage that teaches Christians to use musical instruments today.  It can be a command, an approved example, or a necessary inference.  If you cannot support your view from the Bible, then it is not by faith.

 

On 9/5/2018 at 11:13 AM, Still Alive said:

I should expand in one way: You mentioned Adam and Eve. He gave them permission to do whatever they wanted, except he gave a specific prohibition from a thing. This may be why I look for specific prohibitions, but not specific permission. 

 

In looking only for specific prohibitions, you overlook the specific commands to hold to the pattern.

In looking only for specific prohibitions, what about the specific prohibitions about not thinking beyond what is written & not adding to or taking away from God's word?  What about the examples where God's silence is show to be prohibitive?

The consequences of your argument is to "allow" behavior that God does not authorize.

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

Sounds awfully complicated to me...” My burden is light”Jesus said. How about we actually trust God’s Spirit to guide us? “Love God and live as you please” If one truly understands the thinking behind that,you have an insight into the essence of Christianity.Its not by coincidence that to “love God with all your heart,all your soul and all your mind” is the #1 Commandment.If one can do that, everything else that God cares about will follow .God bless

[Still Alive]

58 minutes ago, DWH2003 said:

There is a pattern we are commanded to hold to in Christ (2 Tim. 1:13).  That pattern includes making sure taht whatever we do is by His authority before acting (Col. 3:17).  We are not to even think beyond what is written (1 Cor. 4:6).  Even thoughts can be sinful!  We are to walk by faith (1 Cor. 5:6).  Faith is revealed, not made up as we go (Rom. 10:17).  Silence is not permission (Heb. 7:14; 15:24).  We cannot assume to have authority...  Sadly, many use "freedom" as a "cloak of wickedness", as a "justification" to do things that are wrong before God (Gal 5:13; 1 Peter 2:16).

Whether it be a command or a prohibition, authority is expressed as either a generic or a specific.  For example, God did not just say "worship God" and leave it up to us how to worship.  God specified:  "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24)

Sincerity and truth are required. Sincerity, is obviously the heart.  But  that alone is not enough.  Truth is required also. God's word is truth (John 17:17).  Thus, to worship acceptably before God (it is about Him after all!), we must first find out what He says is acceptable worship.

 

I challenge you to find a NT passage that teaches Christians to use musical instruments today.  It can be a command, an approved example, or a necessary inference.  If you cannot support your view from the Bible, then it is not by faith.

 

 

In looking only for specific prohibitions, you overlook the specific commands to hold to the pattern.

In looking only for specific prohibitions, what about the specific prohibitions about not thinking beyond what is written & not adding to or taking away from God's word?  What about the examples where God's silence is show to be prohibitive?

The consequences of your argument is to "allow" behavior that God does not authorize.

If I can do a thing, God authorizes my ability to choose to do it. e.g. murder. 

However, He specifically tells me not to and Jesus even amplified it (the "hate your brother") part. 

 

But regarding the pattern, it is clear you and I see different patterns. Feel free to carry on with yours. And I will carry on with mine, with a quite clear conscience.

BTW, adhering to the concept of a "pattern", as you refer to it from 2 timothy, is what caused me to move from the ECT (eternal conscious torment) position to the CI (conditional immortality - annihilation) position. It not only fits scripture, but also the personality - the "pattern" of the God of the bible.

Bottom line is that you and I strongly agree about the pattern concept. But you seem to see a different pattern than me. 

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Still Alive

[Still Alive]

40 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Sounds awfully complicated to me...” My burden is light”Jesus said. How about we actually trust God’s Spirit to guide us? “Love God and live as you please” If one truly understands the thinking behind that,you have an insight into the essence of Christianity.Its not by coincidence that to “love God with all your heart,all your soul and all your mind” is the #1 Commandment.If one can do that, everything else that God cares about will follow .God bless

I read a story many years ago that said that after C. S. Lewis died, one of his associates looked up from his desk to see Lewis sitting in a chair in his office. Lewis said to him, "It's not that hard." and vanished.

Now, I have no idea whether or not this story is true, but it speaks to what I HAVE noticed, and it is this: The more I STUDY the bible, the more complex and detailed the teaching is, but the SIMPLER the message is.

To all my Christian friends who may be bordering , or going all in, on legalism, I say this: Lighten up. His burden is light. Pray. Study the bible. Pray some more and then, above all, PRAY. 

Then apply what you've learned involving the two things that actually matter in this world:

1. Your relationship with your creator.

2. Your relationship with your fellow man (a subset of number 1).

Everything else is just something you do that either enhances or detracts from those two. 

[GandalfTheWise]

1 hour ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Sounds awfully complicated to me...” My burden is light”Jesus said. How about we actually trust God’s Spirit to guide us? “Love God and live as you please” If one truly understands the thinking behind that,you have an insight into the essence of Christianity.Its not by coincidence that to “love God with all your heart,all your soul and all your mind” is the #1 Commandment.If one can do that, everything else that God cares about will follow .God bless

 

22 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

The more I STUDY the bible, the more complex and detailed the teaching is, but the SIMPLER the message is. To all my Christian friends who may be bordering , or going all in, on legalism, I say this: Lighten up. His burden is light. Pray. Study the bible. Pray some more and then, above all, PRAY.  Then apply what you've learned involving the two things that actually matter in this world: 1. Your relationship with your creator. 2. Your relationship with your fellow man (a subset of number 1). Everything else is just something you do that either enhances or detracts from those two.  [Edited]

 

This more or less sums up my view as well.   The only thing I'd add is that Christianity is about being transformed into a new creation in Christ from whom love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control and other such things naturally flow.  It is about a very real transformation that changes us.  It is not about agonizing over each and every Bible verse (or parts of Bible verses) to find every possible place we fall short, trying our hardest in our own strength to follow what we learn, and treating life like a giant minefield God has put us into where a wrong step causes Him to be angry and disgusted with us or or perhaps might blow us away for eternity.  It is about being adopted as a child of the Almighty, being given a new nature, and being changed from the inside out.   Holiness and righteousness are something that will increasingly and naturally flow from our new nature;  they are not goals we aspire to by working hard at them.

 

[Still Alive]

18 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said:

 

 

This more or less sums up my view as well.   The only thing I'd add is that Christianity is about being transformed into a new creation in Christ from whom love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control and other such things naturally flow.  It is about a very real transformation that changes us.  It is not about agonizing over each and every Bible verse (or parts of Bible verses) to find every possible place we fall short, trying our hardest in our own strength to follow what we learn, and treating life like a giant minefield God has put us into where a wrong step causes Him to be angry and disgusted with us or or perhaps might blow us away for eternity.  It is about being adopted as a child of the Almighty, being given a new nature, and being changed from the inside out.   Holiness and righteousness are something that will increasingly and naturally flow from our new nature;  they are not goals we aspire to by working hard at them.

 

We're really on the same page. I take the "God is my father, who loves me." concept very seriously. I look at how I "feel" about my own children and their transgressions and remember God loves me a LOT more than I love them - and I suddenly find peace.

[DWH2003]

19 hours ago, Still Alive said:

If I can do a thing, God authorizes my ability to choose to do it. e.g. murder. 

However, He specifically tells me not to and Jesus even amplified it (the "hate your brother") part. 

 

But regarding the pattern, it is clear you and I see different patterns. Feel free to carry on with yours. And I will carry on with mine, with a quite clear conscience.

BTW, adhering to the concept of a "pattern", as you refer to it from 2 timothy, is what caused me to move from the ECT (eternal conscious torment) position to the CI (conditional immortality - annihilation) position. It not only fits scripture, but also the personality - the "pattern" of the God of the bible.

Bottom line is that you and I strongly agree about the pattern concept. But you seem to see a different pattern than me. 

 

 

The scriptures state that silence is not permission.  Your view says the opposite.

You claim, "If I can do a thing, God authorizes my ability..."  Ability does not authorize... Your premise promotes walking by sight, not by faith!

Just because a person has the ability to make animal noises, throw pies accurately, bend balloons into animal shapes, and to whistle Dixie, pig wrestle... that does not mean it is acceptable as worship to God (John 4:24). And please note, God did not overtly prohibit these things.  So, if your principle holds true, then it allows all this & more. Your position, when consistently followed, leads to confusion. God is not the author of confusion.

 

2 Timothy 1:13 Hold the pattern of sound words which thou hast heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee guard through the Holy Spirit which dwelleth in us.

God overtly said that silence is not authorization (Acts 15; Heb 7).  God also said hold the pattern of sound words (2 Tim. 1:13).  God said this is in faith & love. God said this is in Christ.  Your view says the opposite.  You do not hold the pattern.  Please note that when you reject what God says, you reject for yourself what He offers with it... faith, love, Christ.

 

Regarding your denial of eternal conscious torment & belief in annihilation: You mean, you do not believe the word of Jesus on Hell either? You believe the opposite of what the King says on this also?

 

And regarding "legalism", please find one passage where God ever condemned strictly following what He says to do.  I will say this plainly - you will never find it.  Your view on legalism is popular, but false.  Not adhering to God's law is sin by definition.  That is the whole problem in the first place!  All have sinned (disobeyed).  The solution is not more sin, less regard for law, less regard for His word... but more trust in God - His mercy in regards to pardon & His instructions in regards to avoiding more sin.

 

Col. 2:8 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head...

Neighbor, you practice the very thing we are warned of in Col. 2.:18-19.  You do not hold to the King, you hold to doctrines of human invention. Doctrines that make void God's authority.

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by DWH2003

[Still Alive]

16 minutes ago, DWH2003 said:

 

The scriptures state that silence is not permission.  Your view says the opposite.

You claim, "If I can do a thing, God authorizes my ability..."  Ability does not authorize... Your premise promotes walking by sight, not by faith!

Just because a person has the ability to make animal noises, throw pies accurately, bend balloons into animal shapes, and to whistle Dixie, pig wrestle... that does not mean it is acceptable as worship to God (John 4:24). And please note, God did not overtly prohibit these things.  So, if your principle holds true, then it allows all this & more. Your position, when consistently followed, leads to confusion. God is not the author of confusion.

 

2 Timothy 1:13 Hold the pattern of sound words which thou hast heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee guard through the Holy Spirit which dwelleth in us.

God overtly said that silence is not authorization (Acts 15; Heb 7).  God also said hold the pattern of sound words (2 Tim. 1:13).  God said this is in faith & love. God said this is in Christ.  Your view says the opposite.  You do not hold the pattern.  Please note that when you reject what God says, you reject for yourself what He offers with it... faith, love, Christ.

 

Regarding your denial of eternal conscious torment & belief in annihilation: You mean, you do not believe the word of Jesus on Hell either? You believe the opposite of what the King says on this also?

 

And regarding "legalism", please find one passage where God ever condemned strictly following what He says to do.  I will say this plainly - you will never find it.  Your view on legalism is popular, but false.  Not adhering to God's law is sin by definition.  That is the whole problem in the first place!  All have sinned (disobeyed).  The solution is not more sin, less regard for law, less regard for His word... but more trust in God - His mercy in regards to pardon & His instructions in regards to avoiding more sin.

 

Col. 2:8 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head...

Neighbor, you practice the very thing we are warned of in Col. 2.:18-19.  You do not hold to the King, you hold to doctrines of human invention. Doctrines that make void God's authority.

 

I think we're done here. But it was interesting.

[turtletwo]

On 8/21/2018 at 6:19 PM, Christiangal said:

I was thrown for a loop when they actually told me that I don’t have the Holy Spirit because I need to get water baptized first.

Many years ago I attended a Church of Christ. It surprised me in two ways. First off, no instruments. We sang acapella. It felt sort of strange that this was required and the only  way to worship, according to them. But I was willing to do this it as long as the church was biblically sound.

That brings me to the second, far more serious thing. After weeks of attending, I was approached and confronted about my testimony. So I went ahead and shared it. I explained I had been born again...saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) I was shocked when I was told water baptism (immersion) must occur at the exact same time or one is not saved. 

I was actually asked to renounce my belief that I had been saved! I had never heard of baptismal regeneration back then, but I knew in my spirit and from scripture that this was wrong. I told them I'd had my water baptism within the first year after... but again was told I must confess that that was a counterfeit conversion and do it all over again "at the same time."

Well- I got out of that church right away! I saw that as a works 'gospel' (adding to the free gift scripture tells of) and I most certainly wasn't about to renounce my faith or deny that the Holy Spirit was in me.

I hope my bad experience helps someone and shows the danger/fallacy of baptismal regeneration in the Church of Christ. God bless you.