Can You Lose Salvation? (Once Saved, Always Saved?)

[JTC]

22 hours ago, GiftofGod said:

The deepest anxiety I have is that I won't enter the eternal kingdom of God (new Jerusalem) and God will reject me after death due to my continual sinful nature.  I've repented and was baptized, yet darkness still nags at my mind and I still sin... I'm assuming deliberately as we are all responsible for our actions.

If I can lose my salvation, how will I know before it is too late?

Hey GoG, I'm going to guess you're either young (under 50) or recently saved or both. Worrying about losing your salvation is normal for people in the 2 groups I mentioned. But if you're truly saved and if you die young God knows your heart and that it longs for Him. But let's assume you live to 60+ and remain a Christian all those yrs in spite of many trials and tests which we all face. Remember this, no trial has come upon you that others of us have never faced. One day it will dawn on you that you're a real Christian and even more, you've weathered everything the devil threw at you and you survived. On that day you will no longer worry. You'll be like encouraging others as best I can. May God bless you.

[warrior12]

On 11/3/2018 at 1:55 PM, GiftofGod said:

The deepest anxiety I have is that I won't enter the eternal kingdom of God (new Jerusalem) and God will reject me after death due to my continual sinful nature.  I've repented and was baptized, yet darkness still nags at my mind and I still sin... I'm assuming deliberately as we are all responsible for our actions.

If I can lose my salvation, how will I know before it is too late?

We all have anxieties in some form or fashion at times, as it in our human nature.  You have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and you sincerely believe and trust in him and the promises that he has made for his chosen.  This is your assurance and you have to stand firm in your belief as we have a foe that comes to put doubt into your mind and to draw you back into his world.  You have to recognize this and though sin still nags you as you say, you have to be determined to walk in the path of righteousness and flee iniquity.  Some sins will come to persist, but you have to be like David in the battle and know it is God who gives the victory.  

Stay strong in the faith and know for sure that God will fight for you when you think you have no more strength. You would look back later on and be an encouragement to others who have the same phobias. 

[HAZARD]

6 hours ago, enoob57 said:

No Jesus did not admit He lost Judas? Judas never was anything but of his own will... 

John 12:4-6

4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,

5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
KJV

The Lord knew Judas would never let go of the things of this world to receive Him … an example of God's use of His foreknowledge to complete the fulfillment of His Word.
We know The Lord loved Judas and in everyway showed it to him but Judas would never let go of himself or the things of this world to receive Jesus... as when he saw the betrayal was to be so brutal, to the One Who had loved him perfectly, and  didn't go according to his own will, to whatever end toward his desires, hanged himself for it was his will to execute final judgment upon himself. Judas reveals a person who has only one will that of which is dead of the 1st born self and the necessary repentance to cry out from the death never occurred all the way to the end in death...  

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 

Its pretty simple to understand, Jesus would not pick sinners, pagans, murderers, to go and preach the gospel. Judas by transgression fell, His bishopric was GIVEN TO ANOTHER!

Judas had the Holy Spirit and power like the other apostles and was a successful preacher and healer like them (Matt.10:1-20; mark 6:7-13)
He had his name written in Heaven, as proved by Acts 1:20 with Ps. 69:25-29.

He fell from his apostleship by Transgression (Acts 1:25)
Judas was to have his habitation desolate and be blotted out of the book of the living (Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20), and he was to have another take his place in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Ps. 109:8) These passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt. 26:24; John 13:18; Acts 1:16-25.

In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" received power over demons, sickness and disease and a call to preach the Gospel. Of the twelve (Including Judas) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach, and to heal the sick. Christ said to Judas and all the twelve, freely ye have received, freely give . . . . I send you forth as sheep . . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you (Matt. 10:1-20).

[enoob57]

17 hours ago, HAZARD said:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 

Its pretty simple to understand, Jesus would not pick sinners, pagans, murderers, to go and preach the gospel. Judas by transgression fell, His bishopric was GIVEN TO ANOTHER!

This simply says Judas was chosen knowing who and what he was... the testimony of John 'they knew he was a thief of the purse' Jn 12:6! 

This second statement here ignores what God says of why he was chosen as the son of perdition so that we may understand his place there... There were 12 offices for the twelve tribe. The position of twelfth was given to Matthias by lot … Judas was given the position of office of bishopric but never filled it for he was the son of perdition!  

17 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Judas had the Holy Spirit and power like the other apostles and was a successful preacher and healer like them (Matt.10:1-20; mark 6:7-13)
He had his name written in Heaven, as proved by Acts 1:20 with Ps. 69:25-29.

Again you are ignoring the why of Judas being chosen... The Twelve Apostles complete list chosen: Matt 10:1-4; Mark 3:13-19; Luke 6:12-16

Sending Out the Twelve: Matt 10:10-15; Mark 6:7-13; Luke 9:1-6 Mark's specific tells us by two^s so whether Judas was given power or not is moot. God in many places in the OT gave abilities to individuals but were not of Him in spirit- In the OT, as these twelve were of till Acts 2, had or were of the distinction of The Spirit of God came upon not indwelt as regenerated individuals... again we must bring with us Judas was chosen for what he would do not any other reason and titled him 'the son of perdition' meaning like Jesus 'IS' Jesus so Judas 'IS' judas…

 

17 hours ago, HAZARD said:

He fell from his apostleship by Transgression (Acts 1:25)
Judas was to have his habitation desolate and be blotted out of the book of the living (Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20), and he was to have another take his place in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Ps. 109:8) These passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt. 26:24; John 13:18; Acts 1:16-25.

He fell from his apostleship by Transgression (Acts 1:25) 
Acts 1:25

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
KJV
Jesus chose him knowing his where ,(by choice of Judas), and that choice was Judas' in the very end by his own actions of choice! God knowing this chose him for this reason... You can never let go of one precept in The Scriptures to continue in the precept upon precept in Scripture... Judas was chosen as 'the son of perdition' and God says this of him

Matt 26:24-25

24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
KJV
 

The rest of what you have written is built upon a false precept of ignoring this fact called a precept of Scripture and cannot be expected to be correct... one must carry every precept upon precept given in Scripture to arrive at the whole truth …. when one precept is let slip that which is built afterward becomes false precepts... There are many places in Scripture where I find myself waiting upon God to enlarge me so that I may continue but this place is not one of them Judas was placed in the twelfth office of bishopric knowing he was the son of perdition by self choosing and this to fulfill The precepts within Scriptures...

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by enoob57

[JTC]

I hope I don't have to regret writing this a lot. I've always wondered why anyone is debating the OSAS idea. If we live as Jesus, the apostles, and even the early church fathers such as Polycarp and Ignatius told us to then you won't lose your salvation even if it is possible. If you live like a Christian ought to the OSAS debate is a moot point. I've always thought this debate stems from those who want to know, just how much sin can than live in before they have to worry about it. That's the wrong attitude. A true Christian should be trying to live in the least sin he possibly can. We should be doing this because we love God but if you can't do it for love of God then do it for fear of God. If you read the epistles often enough and slowly enough you will see this is what the apostles commanded. It's always better to obey God out of love than fear, but by not obeying Him you may not lose your salvation but you will be punished. (see 1 Cor ch 3) Some will be punished here on earth but others will be punished in the next world. Even Jesus once said He who knows what is right but doesn't do it with receive many blows while he who doesn't know what's right to do will receive fewer blows. Most of us who are Born Again Christians know what's right or wrong. If you do your best to obey God OSAS doesn't matter. I know many who are reading this are either young in years or young in how long you're saved. I want to encourage you that living the right way gets easier in time. It really is hard when you're young or a new Christian. I know because I was there once myself. Luckily there was no Internet and I had never heard of this OSAS debate. Just trying to live as Jesus asked us to is hard enough we don't need debates causing us anxiety. So just do your best and don't worry whether OSAS is true or not.

[S.C.1]

Ya know, I think I'm going to like being here. There's actually many here who believe in the Power of God! Dynamite!!!

[JTC]

On 10/31/2018 at 7:37 PM, *Pumpkin* said:

Very good point! There is a false teaching in Christendom which many people espouse to: which is that once we are saved, we can sin all that we want because our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ now and forever. This is a misapplication of the biblical doctrine of Salvation by Grace through Faith.

Very sad story here. When I was first saved in my first church was a great couple with a real burden for baby Christians. I had known the hubby from HS and his wife was the best example of a Biblical wife I ever saw. She was also quite attractive while remaining modest. These 2 really nurtured us babes. The hubby constantly berated me for going to a bar on Sat night even though I was only 30 and single. Whenever he sinned if I pointed it out he always gave me that covered by the blood excuse. Remember he had been a HS friend. The church broke up and we lost contact for 20 yrs. But then I spoke with them. I was so sad to learn my old friend spent his life cheating on his wife with no worries because he figured he's covered by the blood and he's on an express train to heaven. Back then I had not yet noticed 1 Cor ch 3. 

It's dangerous to believe there's no penalty for what we do in this life. First you can destroy those around you and second you will pay a penalty in the heavenly realms. We may fail everyday but we must always do our best to not sin.

[enoob57]

On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 4:58 PM, JTC said:

I was totally agreeing with this guy until minute 17. That was when he said all we have to do is to believe in Christ. But we have to do a little more than that, we have to obey God.

It is telling isn't it … God say not by works period then some comes around and agrees then say works are necessary to be saved after you are saved. Then if they are right why are the angels of God, who are spirit beings and greater by magnitude of abilities, waiting to see who's who in salvation

Rom 8:19-22

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
KJV

for we know the angelic abilities, even thought fallen, can produce works that could fool the very elect of God ^if God permits^... which He won't due to His promises

Matt 24:24

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV

so the question really remains what good is it to look to works at all! You will undoubtedly say were suppose to know them by their fruits

Matt 7:16-23

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV

really? It appears they didn't even know themselves for by works they were relying on... Essence loved ones aligns with traits given by s/Spirit

Gal 5:22-25

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
KJV

notice essence and no longer tied to 1^st born elements but with faith awaiting a place not built with hands  

[*Pumpkin*]

41 minutes ago, JTC said:

Very sad story here. When I was first saved in my first church was a great couple with a real burden for baby Christians. I had known the hubby from HS and his wife was the best example of a Biblical wife I ever saw. She was also quite attractive while remaining modest. These 2 really nurtured us babes. The hubby constantly berated me for going to a bar on Sat night even though I was only 30 and single. Whenever he sinned if I pointed it out he always gave me that covered by the blood excuse. Remember he had been a HS friend. The church broke up and we lost contact for 20 yrs. But then I spoke with them. I was so sad to learn my old friend spent his life cheating on his wife with no worries because he figured he's covered by the blood and he's on an express train to heaven. Back then I had not yet noticed 1 Cor ch 3. 

It's dangerous to believe there's no penalty for what we do in this life. First you can destroy those around you and second you will pay a penalty in the heavenly realms. We may fail everyday but we must always do our best to not sin.

Hello, My Brother in Christ!

I can relate to your story, and it is indeed tragic. So many churches nowadays have altar calls and "repeat after me" prayers as if that is found in the bible. This method has produced many false conversions and have led many to an eternal hell, and this breaks my heart and brings me to tears. What they need to stress is if their "belief" does not come from the "heart" and not just mere intellectual assent, then it is a "dead faith" which cannot save. You most likely know all of what I have wrote below; but for the sake of other readers who may not have heard this before, I will explain this in greater detail.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)

Jesus said that He gives His sheep Eternal Life; but His sheep are the ones who "continually" hear and follow Him; and know their Chief Shepherd (Jesus) in the most intimate manner. These are"characteristics" of His sheep, and they will never perish. My Greek may be a little rusty; but the word "never" is referred to as a double emphatic negative (similar to Verily, Verily) in the Greek grammar (e.g., "No, not, ever"). The words "hear" (akouo), "know" (ginosko) and "follow" (akoloutheo) are all in the present tense, active voice, and the mood is in the indicative. This all suggests that the characteristic's of Jesus sheep will "continue" to "hear, know, and follow" Him.

Some have argued that "as" one of Jesus' sheep, one could ("on their own free will") voluntarily remove or jump out of Jesus' hand -- and therefore "forfeit" their Salvation. The problem with that argument is that the passage says "NO MAN" shall pluck them out of my Hand; this would also include the "sheep" in the hands of BOTH the Father and the Son. The teaching that one of Jesus' sheep can voluntarily jump out of His hand would not work for several reason -- even using the "free will" argument. The reasons are:

1). Jesus said that His (possessive pronoun) sheep will not listen to the "voice of strangers" or false shepherds; but will "flee" from them. (John 10:5)

2). Jesus said that even if one of His sheep wanders off voluntarily, He will leave the 99 in His fold to seek out that sheep that wandered astray [free will and voluntarily]

3). Jesus said that He is the TRUE shepherd and not a hireling; for hirelings abandon their sheep when there's danger approaching (John 10:12 -- i.e., "wolves").

4). Jesus is the GOOD SHEPHERD, so He will keep His sheep safe at all times. If Jesus allows His sheep to wander off and does nothing about it; how then is He the Good Shepherd?

5). The subject (i.e., "Jesus' sheep") in that passage is in the "reflexive"; meaning that the "subject" (i.e., "Jesus' sheep") in the hands of both the Father and the Son will have nothing to do with himself being plucked out.

I have come across those who say that the Doctrine of Eternal Security is a "get out of hell free pass" and a license for immorality. Eternal Security does not teach a license for immorality, but to flee from a sinful lifestyle to pursue holiness and obedience to please the LORD. Titus 2:11-14 teach just the opposite; because the "Grace of God" leads to denying all ungodliness. The caveat in all of this is that we need to make absolutely certain that we are indeed His sheep, and not deceiving ourselves. The bible is explicit in 2 Corinthians 13:5) when it puts great emphasis for us to "examine ourselves" of whether we are truly in the Faith, and not reprobates i.e., "counterfeits"). An analogy would be like a counterfeit bill; and we cannot know if that bill is indeed counterfeit unless we recognize what an "authentic" bill looks like at first.

A great place to start would be an examination of the fruit of the Spirit. Such as:

• Love
• Joy
• Peace
• Self-control
• Kindness
• Goodness
• Gentleness
• Faithfulness
• Patience

If we are in complete opposition of these Spiritual fruits, then that is a "red flag" that we may not be saved, or were never saved to begin with. When we are born-again, we are "new" creatures in Christ, and sin will have less dominion overs us during our life (cf. Matt. 3:8; Rom. 12:2-3; 2 Cor. 5:17; Heb. 6:1; 1 Jn. 3:9; 5:4; et al.). As we progress spiritually, we will have a greater hatred towards sin, and keep the commandments because we want to please God. I should stop here because making long replies are somewhat difficult to respond to, so my apologies if I've done so. Hope this helps. Thanks!

In Christ, *Pumpkin*

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, JTC said:

It's dangerous to believe there's no penalty for what we do in this life. First you can destroy those around you and second you will pay a penalty in the heavenly realms. We may fail everyday but we must always do our best to not sin.

There is a penalty, but that penalty does not include losing salvation.   We may lose rewards and we may suffer the built-in consequences that come with sin, but we will never lose salvation.