What exactly will be seen during the Rapture

[ARGOSY]

Do you really believe making  the rapture will depend on our end-times views? I'm sure there are more important things like faith, love for God , love for each other

[iamlamad]

On 10/26/2018 at 10:58 AM, ARGOSY said:

Do you really believe making  the rapture will depend on our end-times views? I'm sure there are more important things like faith, love for God , love for each other

If an end time view causes one NOT to be watching and caught without sufficient Oil (parable of 10 virgins: oil representing the Holy Spirit) then an end time view could end up causing some to MISS the rapture. I am convinced He will be coming for those EXPECTING His coming. If someone is expecting the man of sin first........???

[ARGOSY]

On 10/26/2018 at 1:39 PM, enoob57 said:

There have and will be many last trumpets of events in this world... because of the commonness of this- context must apply to what the last trumpet of event is... or one must identify the last trumpet as event in it's self through the Biblically defined justification for such >that is not there<

Sure in each case you can justify having two last trumpets, two second coming, two resurrections etc 

But knowing that God does not confuse us, and knowing that Jesus told the church to look out and prepare for him coming again as per Matthew 24; to then have an earlier coming without any particular chapter explaining two comings seems an unlikely way to interpret the Bible.

If you co-incide all these events it really does work. Then we need to explain about two verses about escaping earlier, which have more logical explanations than the pretrib view, and voila! One or two rethinks and the entire post trib doctrine starts to make sense.

[ARGOSY]

On 10/26/2018 at 5:35 PM, iamlamad said:

How do you know that the trumpet in Matthew 24 is the "last" trump? It does not say last. Do you believe God is going to send angels to collect every trumpet in heaven and on earth so that no more trumpets can EVER be sounded - not in heaven nor on the earth - nor anywhere in between? And then God would have to remove the memory of trumpets so that no one would EVER build anther trumpet EVER. And that would mean, no trumpet during the 1000 year reign of Christ, NO trumpet ever in the Holy city, no trumpet ever in the New Heaven and New earth. Is that your meaning?

Of course that was not Paul's meaning when He wrote, "at the last trump." Because we KNOW the above sarcasm is not the intended mean, we have to qualify what Paul wrote: the last trump of a certain SERIES of trumpets. Many people now believe Paul's meaning was, the final or last trumpet blast at the FEAST of trumpets which take place EVER YEAR. 

When we understand what Paul was really saying, then of course, on some unknown year, at the feast of trumpets, the final or last trump will sound, and the dead in Christ will be raised. And then, some 7 plus years later, when Christ returns to earth, to Armageddon, He will send out angels with the sound of a trumpet, and gather the JEWS and HEBREWS all back to Israel - from heaven, and from earth - WHEREVER a descendant of Jacob is found.

Therefore, there will be a "last trump" sounded at the pretrib rapture, and 7 years later, another trump sounded when Jesus returns to earth. Problem solved.

Yet pre-tribs place this  rapture/resurrection before the second coming.  How can the rapture/resurrection take place WITHOUT a coming? OF COURSE He comes. Paul mentions a coming in 1 thes. 4. And it will be His SECOND coming. I think you meant before His THIRD coming.  The truth is, pretribbers (at lease Me as a pretribber)  place the rapture right where Paul places it, a moment before God's wrath begins - as John shows us, at the 6th seal. The earthquake at the 6th seal is Paul's "sudden destruction" from which the rapture SAVES us from.

Whereas rev 20 places the first resurrection at the second coming at the beginning of the 1000 years:  Sorry, but this is a first in PRIORITY, not a first in sequence.  There are only TWO resurrections: one for the just and one for the unjust. Jesus was the firstfruits of the primary resurrection - for the just -  and he rose LONG LONG LONG before the beginning of the millennial reign! 

This is the PRIMARY  resurrection.  This is the CHIEF resurrection.  This is the most honored resurrection. 

In case you missed it, Daniel and his cronies were a part of the Old Testament.  Jesus said several times to Daniels brothers and sisters that He would raise them up ON THE LAST DAY.  When is the last day? It is at the 7th vial. That is when the Two witnesses will rise up, with ALL their Old Covenant brothers and sisters - on the last day. As you can see, this does not include the church. The church is not part of Daniel's group. Did you not read how God blinded the Jews and Hebrews until the FULLNESS of the Gentiles are come in? AFTER the Gentile church is raptured, THEN the 70th week will begin and God will once again focus on the Jews.

You may not realize this, but posttribbers will MISS the marriage and supper, held IN HEAVEN, before Christ returns to the battle of Armageddon. And you will have STOLEN the sheep at the sheep and goat judgment. And you will have stolen any possibility for God to replenish the earth during the Millennium. 

 

 

I agree with you that trumpets will still exist, the last trumpet bring the last trumpet of this age. So I acknowledge your view as possible, I'm not saying my disagreement with your two trumpets argument or two comings argument or two resurrections argument has completely disproved all pretrib possibilities.

But on the balance of arguments, knowing God is not a God of confusion, one last trumpet, one second coming, one resurrection works better. 

[enoob57]

6 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Sure in each case you can justify having two last trumpets, two second coming, two resurrections etc 

But knowing that God does not confuse us, and knowing that Jesus told the church to look out and prepare for him coming again as per Matthew 24; to then have an earlier coming without any particular chapter explaining two comings seems an unlikely way to interpret the Bible.

If you co-incide all these events it really does work. Then we need to explain about two verses about escaping earlier, which have more logical explanations than the pretrib view, and voila! One or two rethinks and the entire post trib doctrine starts to make sense.

context is everything in learning God's Word.... put two unlike events with last trumpets for those events and because it says at the last trumpet combining that as same the error....

[ARGOSY]

9 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

context is everything in learning God's Word.... put two unlike events with last trumpets for those events and because it says at the last trumpet combining that as same the error....

Yes context is everything. But in every case a rapture is mentioned context favors a post trib scenario. Being well matched to second coming events like.... When he comes again ?. The last trumpet. The resurrection. The day of wrath. 

[enoob57]

29 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

Yes context is everything. But in every case a rapture is mentioned context favors a post trib scenario. Being well matched to second coming events like.... When he comes again ?. The last trumpet. The resurrection. The day of wrath. 

If I say now that I plan to come to town soon -the point-
Yet in the future I plan to come to edge of town and then again later to town hall... have I spoken truthfully?

[ARGOSY]

5 hours ago, enoob57 said:

If I say now that I plan to come to town soon -the point-
Yet in the future I plan to come to edge of town and then again later to town hall... have I spoken truthfully?

I am not saying your view is impossible or untruthful. In the Olivet discourse  and Rev 19 the second coming is so clearly described in such visible and dramatic fashion.  So when the rapture is described in 1 Thess 4/5 and 1 corinthians 15 as also occurring when Jesus comes again, it is strange that the concept of an additional coming is introduced without clarification that it is an additional coming. 

Note that in Matthew 24 it was believers, the disciples, who Jesus told to look for the signs of the second coming.  Knowing this, which coming do you think the believers had in mind when reading this:

1 Thess 4 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Cor 15  For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Sure it is possible that another second coming was introduced into the bible in the epistles. This would then make Jesus' answer to the disciples' question in Matthew 24  actually an answer about a third coming less relevant to believers experiencing a pre-trib rapture. Why then all the urging to watch for signs in Matthew 24 when those signs are largely irrelevant to his pre-trib audience? Nothing really gels smoothly.

Edited October 29, 2018 by ARGOSY

[enoob57]

6 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

I am not saying your view is impossible or untruthful. In the Olivet discourse  and Rev 19 the second coming is so clearly described in such visible and dramatic fashion.  So when the rapture is described in 1 Thess 4/5 and 1 corinthians 15 as also occurring when Jesus comes again, it is strange that the concept of an additional coming is introduced without clarification that it is an additional coming. 

Note that in Matthew 24 it was believers, the disciples, who Jesus told to look for the signs of the second coming.  Knowing this, which coming do you think the believers had in mind when reading this:

1 Thess 4 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Cor 15  For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Sure it is possible that another second coming was introduced into the bible in the epistles. This would then make Jesus' answer to the disciples' question in Matthew 24  actually an answer about a third coming less relevant to believers experiencing a pre-trib rapture. Why then all the urging to watch for signs in Matthew 24 when those signs are largely irrelevant to his pre-trib audience? Nothing really gels smoothly.

The point I was making was there are two distinct times Jesus returns

in the air only...

1 Thess 4:17-18

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

from Heaven and on the ground waging war setting up His Physical reign on David's Throne fulfilling His Promise...

Rev 19:11-21

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 

The Beast and His Armies Defeated

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,  18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." 

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. 
NKJV
 

"Sure it is possible that another second coming was introduced into the bible in the epistles. This would then make Jesus' answer to the disciples' question in Matthew 24  actually an answer about a third coming less relevant to believers experiencing a pre-trib rapture. Why then all the urging to watch for signs in Matthew 24 when those signs are largely irrelevant to his pre-trib audience? Nothing really gels smoothly"

There are those going to be saved during the tribulation... certainly they will read this!

Edited October 30, 2018 by enoob57

[ARGOSY]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

The point I was making was there are two distinct times Jesus returns

in the air only...

1 Thess 4:17-18

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

from Heaven and on the ground waging war setting up His Physical reign on David's Throne fulfilling His Promise...

Rev 19:11-21

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 

The Beast and His Armies Defeated

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,  18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." 

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. 
NKJV
 

"Sure it is possible that another second coming was introduced into the bible in the epistles. This would then make Jesus' answer to the disciples' question in Matthew 24  actually an answer about a third coming less relevant to believers experiencing a pre-trib rapture. Why then all the urging to watch for signs in Matthew 24 when those signs are largely irrelevant to his pre-trib audience? Nothing really gels smoothly"

There are those going to be saved during the tribulation... certainly they will read this!

What makes you think there will be years between those two events, rather than hours?