Help with Revelation 12:17

[tatwo]

On 2/18/2023 at 8:46 AM, Revelation Man said:

The REMNANT is the Gentiles who get saved after the WHOLE Church is Raptured to Heaven.

No one can deny these facts. 

I do not have the words to frame the folly and the arrogance of this statement.

The fact that you see a distinction between "Jews and Gentiles" in your verbose diatribe shows a complete lack of understanding of the Gospel message...and the kingdom of God...at the most basic level.

In terms of Christ...as Paul the Apostle of Christ Yahshua states..."in Christ" there is no longer "Jew or Gentile...nor slave or free...male and female."

For those in Christ...we are all one...a "new creation"...this new creation is a "spiritual reality"...it has no basis for its existence in anything that is created...its essence is in eternity...outside of creation itself.

If you believe what you wrote...the only fact that you sir...have established...that no one can deny...is that at no time have you heard His voice...nor seen His form...and His Word is not in you.

 Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

On 2/18/2023 at 10:16 AM, Vine Abider said:

Therefore there must be three persons of the Godhead in us, right?  That seems to be what the verses in Romans 8:9-11 are saying:

"You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you."

I've looked at these verses for decades and frankly I'm not much closer to understanding & explaining it.  And I've spent hours/days/weeks fellowshipping with others about the Triune God and guess what?  It's still an amazing, marvelous mystery. (as my dad says, "It's like trying to corner Jello!")

So what do you see in these verses?

What do I see...

The "new creation" if you will...humans filled with the "Spirit of God" whom is referred to as "Christ in you"...which is also the "Spirit" that raised Yahshua from the dead...who is living in me....and that I have eternal life in my mortal human body...flesh...which is His Spirit...living and alive in me.

Tatwo...:)

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

It's biblically false to claim Jesus Christ is the Holy Ghost IMHO, and its not changing anytime soon

We Disagree

We actually do agree . . . to disagree. I've been in this exact discussion probably a dozen times, and no matter how many verses are shown, the person believing one way continues to believe that way.  That's fine - it's who we are.  We don't know what we don't know, and that certainly includes me!

I see your point completely and I agree there are lots of verses to back that view up.  However, then there are verses backing up a different view. So let's not get into that as it's really not profitable in the end, and I've been down the road too many times.  (We are brothers with the same life of Christ in each of us, and that's what's important.)

Two insightful analogies of this sort of thing come to mind:

1. The three blind men handling different parts of an elephant and describing what they feel. One is sure the elephant is like a tree; one is adamant it's like a rope; and the third blind man is certain it's like a wall.  In expressing to each other what they feel, they almost come to blows before someone reveals the bigger, true picture.

2. The Calvinism vs Armenianism schism. There are passages appearing to back up the Calvinist view; and passages to back up the Arminian view.  Which are true?  Since both categories of verses are there, then it must be both are true,, regardless of that possibility seeming impossible to our limited minds. (I've heard this matter described like someone passing through the gates of heaven and seeing on the front side as they enter, "Chosen from before the foundation of the world!" And after entering they look back to that side of the gate and see it says, "Whosoever will!"  Both Armenians & Calvinists probably hate that analogy!  LOL)

So, bro, in the words of that wise mythical sage, Forest Gump, "That's all I got to say about that."

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, tatwo said:

truth7t7...your feeble arguments here are thrown down before you...you don't see it...you can't see it...when once again the veil is torn...the final veil between the Spiritual and the natural...you will quickly realize your part with the Mother of Harlots...

For it is written: The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam [Yahshua] became the life-giving Spirit. However, the spiritual didn’t come first. The natural precedes the spiritual. The first man was from the dust of the earth; the second Man is the Lord Jehovah, from the realm of heaven. [Spirit] The first one, made from dust, has a race of people just like him, who are also made from dust. The One sent from heaven has a race of heavenly people who are just like him. [Spirit] Once we carried the likeness of the man of dust, but now let us carry the likeness of the Man of heaven. [Spirit](1Co 15:45-49 TPT) [Emphasis added]

Tatwo...:)
 

Not one word you provide negates the fact that Jesus Christ "isn't" God the Holy Spirit

John 14:26KJV

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 John 5:7-8KJV

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Edited February 20, 2023 by truth7t7

[Alive]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

All this time I thought it was SATAN that was the accuser of the brethren. It seems that you are trying to walk in his shoes, so to speak.

This is a clear breaking of the terms of service each member agreed to when joining.

Please do not so insult another member. We can agree to disagree without resorting to this sort of language.

[other one]

13 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 

you've been here long enough to know that kind of writing is not allowed here when speaking of another member. 

[tatwo]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

All this time I thought it was SATAN that was the accuser of the brethren. It seems that you are trying to walk in his shoes, so to speak.

Is this your version of “Love” iamlamad? Did you just refer to me as Satan…and then admonish me to “at least TRY to walk in love”? Did you “accuse me”…?

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Did you not read? Paul frequently refered to Gentile saints as "Gentiles." Here is one example:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

In deed…I have read…Paul here is using the strictest reference to the actual “saints” in Ephesus…those “in Christ” as he puts it…“those who are faithful in Christ”…specifically…as he states…nothing less than the “Body of Christ”…as I stated in my response to revelation man. He does not refer to the “saints” as “gentiles” as you suggest.

Paul’s greeting…here…is to the “sons of God” in Ephesus…not to any “gentiles, heathen…or Jew.” Ephesians 1 and 2” is purely for those “in Christ”…neither “Jew nor gentile”…no one else. Let me explain…

Continuing on in Ephesians 2…Here we have Paul reminding the “saints”…”Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”

It things like “formerly gentiles in the flesh” which is the only way to be a “gentile” btw…and “separate from Christ” that’s because one is a “gentile”…that defines “gentile” to us iamlamad…that is not the same as “saint”…never…it’s unfortunate for you that you conflate the two…but go as you will.

Additionally Paul will go on to explain that…”in His flesh” the Lord Yahshua tore down the barrier between “Jews and gentiles”…reconciling them both into Himself…into His body…making the two into “One new man”…”one new creature”…that “one and only spiritual body.” And I assure you as Paul has stated…this new creature...He is obviously not referred to as “Jew or gentile.”

Sooo…no…Paul does not refer to the “saints” as “gentiles”…he refers to the “gentiles as gentiles” and the “saints as saints.”

I know that raises hell with your entire “end of the age” belief structure…however you must understand…the only thing the Father is focused on is His Son…this Son was the only intention in and purpose for creation…that “Son” is coming forth…on the earth…as Christ…and He is underwritten by the power and authority of the throne of God…repent while you can iamlamad.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

I do not think you handled this well…iamlamad…with Paul clearly establishing a “spiritual/eternal” difference between “Saints” and “gentiles” in Ephesians Ch. 1& 2…with a good look at Ephesians 3 as you suggest…We see Paul…is simply telling the Ephesians in Ch. 3…that he was sent by the Lord Yahshua Christ to reveal the mystery of the “Body of Christ” to the gentiles…and their part in it…as a “people far from God” if you will…clearly.

He in effect is saying…that he is has been asked to “evangelize” the “gentiles”…that is anyone who was not a Jew. Paul would not…explain in Ch. 2 that the “saints” in Ephesus who were “formerly gentiles” that were once “separated from Christ”…as being…“gentiles”…again…think about it. No…that is not at all what he is saying…

Surely you have read…Paul goes on in chapter 4 to define a “gentile”…and he encourages the “saints”…”that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk”…and tells them…” being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them.” Again…no…he does not refer to the “saints” as “gentiles” as you have attempted to show.

“Gentiles” to Paul have “given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.”  So…they are not “saints” and he does not refer to them as such…and be sure that as you have put those words in Paul’s mouth…you have dealt treacherously with Truth…oh but read on iamlamad.

As it is written…it is Paul who taught in Galatians 3 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.”

It simply could not be more plain…to be “one in Christ” is antithetical to being a Jew or gentile…slave or free…male or female…as those are classified as “in the flesh”…”in Christ” means “in the Spirit” simply because Christ is no longer be known by the flesh! Read on…

For the record…Paul also says there in Galatians 3 that…”if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.” He is saying that the heirs to the throne of God…the Sons of God…via the promise to Abraham’s descendents…are these that are “in Christ”.

While I am at it…in Galatians 6 Paul writes…”For neither is circumcision anything, (Jew) nor uncircumcision (gentile), but a new creation”…that new creation is…”Christ…aka…Saints…sons of God…body of the King of kings.” The fulfillment of the promise to Abraham…in the spirit.

The thing you and many others don’t seem to understand…is this…this same Paul is reported to have written in 2 Corinthians…”if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature”…again…as he said in Galatians.

You would also do well to understand another statement by Paul in the same reference…he says…about those “new creations”…which are the ”saints”…that they are to “recognize no one according to the flesh”…this is because in the “flesh” men are known as “Jews and gentiles…slave and free…male and female.”

Of course not…it makes sense…this “new creature” who are “saints”…are “saints” because of the life of Christ that is in them…the Holy Spirit…we are the “spiritual nation of promise”…symbolized and typified in the ancients by the nation of Israel as a “natural nation of promise”…first the “natural” and then the “spiritual.”

As I stated…to Revelation man…iamlamad…"in Christ" there is no longer "Jew or Gentile...nor slave or free...male and female."

 

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's at least TRY to walk in love.

Well…you busting on me for not walking in love…and then…referring to me in the likeness of Satan…looks to be a double standard iamlamad.

Additionally…if you believe what you write…like revelation man…I do not consider either of you my brother in Christ as you guys deny Him continuously…on top of that…I actually have done nothing unloving in any case.

Tatwo…:)

[The Light]

On 10/9/2018 at 12:17 PM, JoeCanada said:

 

So what is……”keeping the word of God, have the Word of God, Hold the word of God”…….. and also “the testimony of Jesus Christ”

It seems to be very significant in these last days.

“….which keep the commandments of God…..” So, which commandments is scripture talking about? I’ve heard many Christians claim that the commandments were done away with, that they were nailed to the cross.

The 10

On 10/9/2018 at 12:17 PM, JoeCanada said:

How can this be if  In Rev 12:17… “ and the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her  seed, which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”

The remnant of her seed is the church is it not?.........  All born again believers?

The remnant of her seed is the twelve tribes across the earth. The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. The remnant of her seed is raptured at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins

On 10/9/2018 at 12:17 PM, JoeCanada said:

Certainly Israel, the Jewish people, who escape into the wilderness, they don’t have  “the testimony of Jesus Christ”

Those in the nation of Israel do not have the testimony of Jesus Christ when the Lord comes for the gathering at the 6th seal. They will go through the wrath of God after the seventh seal is opened. They are in a place of protection.

Isaiah 26

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

On 10/9/2018 at 12:17 PM, JoeCanada said:

 

 

 

[Diaste]

Interesting and timely topic.

 

On 10/9/2018 at 11:17 AM, JoeCanada said:

So what is……”keeping the word of God, have the Word of God, Hold the word of God”…….. and also “the testimony of Jesus Christ”

I think it's prophecy in this context. The commandments of God are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. 

A lot of prophecies were given in the OT where when the people heeded the word of the prophecy they prospered, and when they didn't, well....

 

On 10/9/2018 at 11:17 AM, JoeCanada said:

It seems to be very significant in these last days.

“….which keep the commandments of God…..” So, which commandments is scripture talking about? I’ve heard many Christians claim that the commandments were done away with, that they were nailed to the cross.

Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself, this is all the law and the prophets.

Matt 22:34-37

On 10/9/2018 at 11:17 AM, JoeCanada said:

How can this be if  In Rev 12:17… “ and the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her  seed, which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”

Because it's not the 10 commandments, it's Matt 22:34-37 and Deuteronomy 6:5

On 10/9/2018 at 11:17 AM, JoeCanada said:

The remnant of her seed is the church is it not?.........  All born again believers?

Yes. The Israel seen here is spiritual Israel, all in Christ, the seed of Abraham, not the land mass with borders.

On 10/9/2018 at 11:17 AM, JoeCanada said:

Certainly Israel, the Jewish people, who escape into the wilderness, they don’t have  “the testimony of Jesus Christ”

Possibly, the woman in Rev 12:14 is the same as Matt 24:16-20. 

On 10/9/2018 at 11:17 AM, JoeCanada said:

And what is meant by....."the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Good question. Off the cuff I'm going with Jesus is the greatest prophet. What prophecy isn't about Him or by Him? 

Or so I'm convinced.