Can we withhold forgiveness ?

[R. Hartono]

Jesus told us to forgive people so that we may also be forgiven 

Mat 6:14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

But here Jesus says if  we do not forgive them they are not forgotten.

John 20:22 ...and with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

WHAT EXACTLY WE MUST DO ?

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

On this side of the Cross, in the Age of Grace, we forgive because we have been forgiven ...2

[JTC]

10 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

WHAT EXACTLY WE MUST DO ?

I'm not sure what you're asking but we have to forgive everyone who hurts us or wrongs us. It's not easy, believe me. But this is what we must do.

[Still Alive]

11 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

 

WHAT EXACTLY WE MUST DO ?

Forgive the sins of others. In fact, the Lord's prayer says, "forgive us our sins, BECAUSE we forgive the sins of others".  

However, like pretty much every other concept taught in the bible, it's ridiculously simple, or it can involve a lifetime of study. And just to throw some confusion in, the only place the bible tells us to ask God for forgiveness is in the Lord's prayer. Everywhere else it talks of repentence, but not directly asking for forgiveness. And to take it to the next step, he never tells us to wait until someone asks for forgiveness before we forgive them. We are admonished to forgive, EVEN IF the person has not repented, said they were sorry or asked for forgiveness.

And when you consider that we are supposed to be like him and consider the implications of that, our own salvation (and everyone elses) becomes, well, sort of complicated - and simpler.

 

FWIW, I believe that forgiving others is something you do for yourself, not them. 

[Deborah_]

12 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Jesus told us to forgive people so that we may also be forgiven 

Mat 6:14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

But here Jesus says if  we do not forgive them they are not forgotten.

John 20:22 ...and with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

WHAT EXACTLY WE MUST DO ?

Context is important. These two passages aren't talking about quite the same thing...

John 20:21-23 is Jesus' commission to the apostles to preach the Gospel - the good news of forgiveness of sins. As evangelists and church leaders, they had a special authority and responsibility, affecting the eternal destiny of those they would preach to.

Matthew 6:14,15 is about our everyday relationships with other people.

[JustPassingThru]

11 hours ago, Still Alive said:

And to take it to the next step, he never tells us to wait until someone asks for forgiveness before we forgive them.

And when you consider that we are supposed to be like him and consider the implications of that, our own salvation (and everyone else's) becomes, well, sort of complicated - and simpler.

 

FWIW, I believe that forgiving others is something you do for yourself, not them. 

Ah the proverbial question, now, ...did God forgive us before we asked Him to (Universalism), ...and would God require us to do something He Himself doesn't do?  Having said that, do we not find this principle in the parable of the unforgiving servant, was he not condemned until he asked for forgiveness?

Yes Still alive, I agree with you, I believe we forgive others, but it's between us and God so that a root of bitterness does not spring up, ...does not Jesus teach that when we have come to Worship (and cleanse our hearts before entering into the presence of a thrice Holy God) and during that time of cleansing the Holy Spirit convicts us of a person we have offended, are we not to leave our offering and go make it right with that person, ...hence the one that has sinned against us, or we against them, will come/go and ask for forgiveness and the book is wiped clean.

[Still Alive]

8 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

 

Yes Still alive, I agree with you, I believe we forgive others, but it's between us and God so that a root of bitterness does not spring up,

Exactly! We even agree on the reason! I forgave my ex wife for divorcing me without cause after 20 years and with three teenaged/preteen daughters. It was a huge step, not for me, but for her. I can imagine being in heaven, seeing her, and even talking about all that stuff over a cup of heavenly coffee. 

This touches on my perception of our world as very much like "The Matrix" or a video game. My character in the game is controlled by me - my spiritual self. When the game ends, I don't. In fact, C. S. Lewis uses a similar perspective in his book on miracles. He said a miracle is something supernatural injected into the natural world, and we all experience a miracle every single day, but we have become so accustomed to it that we just take it for granted and even science mysteriously ignores its existence - at least from a scientific perspective - because they have no way to measure its existence or explain it. 

That miracle is our own consciousness. 

I've said for decades that "we are all just disobedient children on the playground". How do you get mad at your own child when you see them, as a third grader, take another kid's sandwich or apple? You see it as a teaching opportunity and a thing they will learn from as they reach adulthood. But because you know the child is just starting to learn social skills, you don't hold it against them personally. It's the way I look at every single person on the planet, including me. God created us for a purpose, and part of his plan was to send he son to die for us, to save us from death. And I think it is just possible that all humans are saved from death, but there really are "levels" of salvation in the next age, the age after that, the age after that, etc. The bible doesn't cover every age. It only covers the ages God wants our generation/age to be made aware of. We know more than the second temple age. We know more than the first temple age. They knew more than Noah or Adam. And who knows what ages existed between Genesis 1:2 and 1:3. And who knows how many ages there are to come. 

One mesmerizing passage regarding this is Revelation 21: 23-27:

The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. ²⁴ The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Looks like there will be people there who may enter the new Jerusalem and those that may not. Could this be the difference between those "saved" and in Christ and those saved, but not "in Christ". I mean, the kingdom of heaven descriptions by Jesus regarding things like the talents suggest different "levels" in eternity. And maybe those are for the next age, but the age after that includes everyone.

In all seriousness, who knows? The bible is like a book that talks about how to repair a ford, but never gets into the existence of GM vehicles, or Boeing airplanes. It's not about those things. The bible is about God's plan for man on earth. And it clearly passes through ages. 

I'm not saying I believe or adhere to a single thing I posted after the quote. I'm saying that I don't know, and I'm not sure anyone does. What we DO know is that Sin entered the world through one man and through one man "ALL" are saved. Make of it what you will.

BTW, I am not a universalist, but I'm no longer strongly anti universalist. The softening of my position came when I discovered that what most english bibles translate as "eternity" or "forever" is really derived from words that more precisely mean, "an age" "for the age" or "for the ages".  

Still studying...

 

[discipler777]

On 11/29/2018 at 12:04 PM, R. Hartono said:

Jesus told us to forgive people so that we may also be forgiven 

Mat 6:14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

But here Jesus says if  we do not forgive them they are not forgotten.

John 20:22 ...and with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

WHAT EXACTLY WE MUST DO ?

ACTS.2:37-39 (NKJV) = 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Repentance and forgiveness of sins always go together, eg King David was a repentant murderer and adulterer; Paul was a repentant persecutor and murderer - both were forgiven by God. The unrepentant Jews who murdered Jesus Christ were not forgiven by God = the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish Holy Temple in 70AD by the Roman Army and they were not saved from hell.

Imagine the foolishness of God and Christians forgiving unrepentant murderers, adulterers, rapists, pedophiles, bullies, thieves, fraudsters, liars/perjurers, traitors, backstabbers, extortioners, drunkards/drug-addicts, idolators, blasphemers, unbelievers, sorcerers, homosexual rebels, etc.

.

Edited November 30, 2018 by discipler777

[discipler777]

20 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

I can, and do, forgive people, even if they are not repentant,but that is me giving my part of the forgiveness to God to deal with. Gods part is different. I cannot give Gods forgiveness to anyone, not even myself. This is the bit i think the Lord prayer addresses. Us giving up that resentment or whatever and surrendering it to God, and asking Him to extend that mercy to us.

I think. I may have got it wrong.

ROMANS.12:14 & 19-21 (NKJV) = 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. ...

19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 Therefore

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

.

Yes, Christians should "love" their powerful enemies or persecutors to death when the times of persecution arrives.

.

Edited November 30, 2018 by discipler777

[Scott Free]

On 11/28/2018 at 10:04 PM, R. Hartono said:

WHAT EXACTLY WE MUST DO ?

(John 20:22) Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them. As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes. Jesus said, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” 

(Mat 6:14)  Jesus preached a crucial message about forgiving our brothers, as God forgave us. We stand in grace, and He expects us to keep our hearts pure toward others, not holding grudges or harboring a spirit of unforgiveness, especially after He gave us such undeserved love and forgiveness at such a high personal cost to Himself! Jesus said those who have been forgiven much, love much (Luke 7:47). He expects us to forgive others 70 times 7 times (Matthew 18:22). We are also told that if we are praying but hold something against anyone, we are to forgive that person so our relationship with God is right and righteous! Colossians 3:13 says, “Forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.” We know we are His if we love our brothers and don’t hate them or have unforgiveness in our hearts (1 John 2:3-6; 3:14-19; 4:16-21). Forgiveness is a key to showing we indeed have eternal life inside us, according to these passages. If we say we love God but hate our brother, we are liars and no truth is in us. So, our forgiveness of others is a major indicator of true fellowship with God. God looks at the heart and actions, not mere words. Jesus stated while on earth, “These people come near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.” So, it’s important we have a living, genuine faith: “We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers” (1 John 3:14).