Who is the Whore of babylon

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Royff said:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Revelation, chapter nine, verse 6. King James Bible.

By the time of the 5th seal the tribulation period is raging, there is only two seal left to go so when the Lord makes this statement it in the time of the pale horse riding. All that other stuff about you are coming up with is man-made. The time period of this is doing the time of the pale horse who is on a killing spree and will kill many saints, so I guess the Lord is wrong again, you can’t rearrange the order of biblical events to insert your false teaching in it.

Lost! That is one good way to describe your posts. MYTH is another way. You erred by pulling the first seal out of its 1st century context. Don't take my word for it: go back to chapter 5 and see that Jesus ascends into the throne room and then sends the Holy Spirit down. WHEN was that? You know the Holy Spirit had to be sent down before the day of Pentecost before Jesus ascended. We are talking the year 32 AD. That is the CONTEXT of the first seal. You have ignored this context.

I am beginning to understand: it seems you have swallowed the prewrath doctrine that is mostly MYTH. That is why you are writing mostly myth. 

THE TRUTH: by the time of the 5th seal, Stephen was murdered, with Paul watching.  These are CHURCH AGE martyrs. You are 2000 years off in your theory. Throw them in the trash and start over! THE TRUTH: the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of does not BEGIN until chapter 14 or after. So you are also many chapters off. 

Just believe John and forget all your myths. Go back and study the CONTEXT of the first seals. Stop pulling verses out of their context. You end up with nonsense. 

Would 70th week martyrs wonder how long it would be before God would judge? They are IN the time of judgment. Of course they would NOT. Stephen, on the other hand, would have NO IDEA how long it would be before Judgment. Not even Paul had any clue the church age would continue for 2000 years! 

My friend, the false teaching seems to be all on your side here. 

Remember, we are brothers in the Lord. There is no need for harsh words. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Royff said:

This is the same thing did with the prophecy of Jesus that it must shortly come to pass that His servants [in Rome] would face persecution and some would face death, when this prophecy is fulfilled in Rome you deny this fulfilled prophecy, now you change the order of events concerning the souls under the altar. This you must do, you must deny fulfilled bible prophecy of the Lord and rearrange the order of events. Therefore you destroy the word of God in order to promote your false gospel.

The Lord made this statement when the pales horse was killing saints.

Please understand, "shortly" to us may mean inside a year or two. To God it may mean a thousand years or two. Don't base doctrine on the word "shortly!" 

Next, find out  - STUDY - and learn where we are NOW in the book of Revelation. You are miles off. The church has been between the 5th and 6th seals since Jesus sent out the church. 

OF COURSE there was persecution in Paul's day. It was severe. But it was NOT the day of the Lord, as Paul pointed out in 2 thes. 2. 

look: just because you THINK you know, when in reality you don't - does not mean I am denying or changing anything. If you think I have changed a scripture, then quote it and show us all how I have changed it. 

By the way, since you are new here, I have always quoted this Axiom on Revelation: 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology in Revelation is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

The truth is, I leave revelation in the order John wrote it. It is others like you that change it.

Again you err. Amazing. Jesus was of course still alive when He made these statements. But the 4 horsemen did not begin to ride until Jesus died, rose from the dead, Ascended and took the book from the Father, and began to open the seals. Just so you know, He opened the first 5 seals right then. 

By the way, when we arrive in heaven, we will know who's gospel is false. If I were you, I would not be so hasty to write such things. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Royff said:

Again, this false teaching of escape for fear of the antichrist is what God calls cowardly behavior which makes Him states; “no coward shall enter the kingdom of heaven. If I were you I’d think hard real on that one. Now if I’m wrong I’ll just be caught of guard and the rapture will over take me then I would have to admit that I was wrong. But if you are wrong, and you are,  you are playing right into the hands of the antichrist.The antichrist [Lucifer] copy the things of God to counterfeit them, he has miracles, tongues, counterfeit holy spirit, counterfeit heallings, angels of light fascinating mankind in the night skies. Do you truly believe he doesn’t have a counterfeit rapture, he would be a very poor general if he counterfeit these many other things of God to pervert them and lead man to destruction and leave out the beast way to get Christians to beg him to rapture them to hell. So, you see, a fake rapture is by far Lucifer the beast means to gather all fearful Christians in one place and rapture them to hell, all because of fear.

 That’s what’s going on with the UFO phenomenal, evil light beings preparing for an invasion that the world is begging for. The non-believers because they believe that these evil entities are their creators. Christians because they are too afraid of being around when the tribulation period heats up, by this time they will hitch a ride on anything smoking just to leave this world because they are overcome by fear. Yea’ those who claim that God has not given us the spirit of fear is fear ridden, prime candidates for the beast’s scam.

So if I’m wrong not must damage is done, but if you are wrong that would make you a general in the service of the antichrist.

You have left the ball field! Perhaps you will understand my meaning. You are WAY past left field. No one has even hinted of fear of the Antichrist. Why fear someone the church will never see? It is very clear you have swallowed a lie hook, line, and sinker. 

Let's just follow the scriptures, shall we?  Sorry, "coward" is not used in the KJV. Show us this verse.

I doubt if "the rapture will just overtake me." It takes FAITH to get something from God. If you don't believe the rapture will come first, maybe you will be left behind. "If I were you, I'd think hard real on that one." Jesus is coming for those who EXPECT Him. (See the last verse in Hebrews 9)

Sorry, no fake rapture. That is just more myth.  But Jesus WILL send out angels to clear out the lawless and cast THEM in to hell. 

Look, if you wish to remain behind, and see the man of sin, I suspect God will allow it. However, I would not recommend it.

[other one]

as another "Whore of Babylon" thread reaches the 250 post range with no consensus I'm reminded of why I stopped bothering with it....  LoL

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, other one said:

as another "Whore of Babylon" thread reaches the 250 post range with no consensus I'm reminded of why I stopped bothering with it....  LoL

Good point!

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Royff said:

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

“And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.”

This second horse is Hitler who was given a great word that he should take peace from the earth. With this great sword Hitler almost destroyed Jacob, which led to the bloodiest scene the world had ever witnessed. Now you don’t believe that the red horse that began his ride with the opening of the second that caused millions of people to die was tribulation? Ask Jacob was it tribulation, ask the people of Europe was it tribulation. It devastated Europe, world market crashed, the world had never seen anything like this before.

“And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.”

“And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.”

This represents the state of world markets at that time, I came up as a kid in the 1950’s and all I heard about how bad things were here in America during the war. How hard times were and the war was not even in America, but it did affect the entire world. If it was that hard in America to even keep food on the table, just think of what the people of Europe had to face; tribulation!

“And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.”

“And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”

Now here the pale horse is introduced, who and what rides along with it; death and hell followed after Him. anywhere death and hell dwells there will be tribulation its the nature of their being. It number one goal is to cause tribulation, hunger and death.”

Now after the pale horse has caused so much death and destruction then the fifth seal, after all the devastation the first four seals, the souls who had been beheaded for the word of God began to get restless:

“And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

“And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

“And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood”

“And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.”

“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”

First of all this must metaphoric language here because even a small star like our Sun would incinerate this earth even before it gets very close it.This is just the continuation of the tribulation that started when the white horse rode out to conquer the world. Each horse after that just to the tribulation of the destruction. What I think I’m seeing from certain Christians are hearts of stone who don’t see tribulation as tribulation if it not affecting them at the time. A heart of stone!  

Now comes the day of the Lord when the heaven depart as a scroll and we see Him in His glory.  

“And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.”

Now remember, before the heavens opening like a scroll, there was a lot of death and destruction. But what’s different here then before? To look closer at that we need to go back to the rider of the red horse:

“And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.”

“And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.”

 

A penny is not must today, but back when John made the statement a penny was like pay for a day’s work or something close to that. In other worlds, its like it was in the 1930’s here in America people had to struggle to feed their children. Now notice, it says don’t hurt the oil and wine. These two things represents wealth and power in scripture.

What is stated here is that though the common man, the worker will struggle to live the rich and powerful are unaffected by these tribulations, in fact many are getting richer selling weapons to all sides in the wars.

Now let's return to where the heaven roll back like a scroll, here now we see the rich and powerful on the run,

“And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.”

Now they that lived high during the great tribulation, they that caused the tribulation, the rulers in Lucifer's kingdom is now on the run because the day of the Lord has arrived, the King of Kings has burst through the skies they know they must do battle with He who they have provoked throughout the history of the earth.

The day of the Lord begins when the Lord burst through the skies, now it the Lord’s time to destroy, before during the tribulation, it was the power men of earth who lived well while they were destroy the the earth and all its inhabitants who was helpless before the day of the Lord.

Man made tribulations and the day of the Lord are two different and distinct events.

No my friend, the tribulation starts long before the opening of the 7th seal.  

You can make guesses - use human reasoning - but the TRUTH is: the Red, the Black and the pale represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel.  Seal 1 is the gospel going forth - opened as soon as Jesus ascended and took the book.  The second, the third and the fouth, not to mention the fifth, were opened right after the first seal, around 32 AD when the gospel went forth. Hitler? Miles from the truth; centuries from the right time.

Yes, OF COURSE these three horses cause "tribulation." But "tribulation" had been with the church since the beginning.  John wrote in chapter 1:9, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in [the] tribulation...

You can be sure, the "the" is there in the Greek. It seems in the mind of God, the entire church age is tribulation. However, it is NOT the 70th week of Daniel!  That is a special time set apart for Daniel's people.  I will say it again, it is NOT "THE tribulation or 70th week. The 70th week is future.

WRONG AGAIN!  The Black horse and rider seal was opened in 32 AD with the others. It represents hunger or famine.  When times are good, a man could earn enough to buy good wheat for bread for his family. But here in the time of famine, he most by the cheapest of grains: barley, to feed his family. He would make just enough in a day to buy enough barley to feed them.

Keep in mind, the GOAL of satan using war, famine, and pestilence was to STOP the church; keep the gospel in that 1/4 of the earth.  I will agree, these things cause pressure or tribulation. But again, it is NOT the 70th week that is future to us.

The 5th seal is for martyrs of the church age. VERY Few of them were beheaded. But during the 70th week, beheading will be the preferred way.  If you notice, God is looking for a certain number of martyrs. He knows when the last one will come in.

“And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.”

Now they that lived high during the great tribulation, they that caused the tribulation. 

WRONG! Your timing and chronology is MYTH. the hiding in the rocks is at the 6th seal. The 70th week will not start until the 7th seal and will go until chapter 16 and the 7th vial. Sorry, but JOHN put the days of great tribulation in chapter 15. YOU are trying to put it in the seals. BIG MISTAKE. You are only showiing us how LITTLE you know of Revelation.

The day of the Lord begins when the Lord burst through the skies

How about you prove this theory with a verse or two? It is MYTH...like most of your theories.

Go back and read the 6th seal again: THERE IS NO COMING at the 6th seal.  

Now comes the day of the Lord when the heaven depart as a scroll

MYTH! ERROR. You are imagining He comes at the 6th seal. WRONG! He comes in chapter 19? Have you read it?

Mostly what you have is wild theories not backed up by scripture. MYTHS.  It seems you have believed the lie of a prewrath rapture.  Well, this is an opportunity for you to learn truth. Somehow I doubt you will take it.

[JoeCanada]

Edited January 4, 2019 by JoeCanada

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Royff said:

Yes, its intended to stop the gospel, and how did Rome stop the gospel from going forth, it's through violence and tribulation of the saints. Everything the whore of Babylon does is an attempt to stop the gospel, but how do she do this, it's not by being nice. Seal one represents a warring king, the bow in the rider’s hand represents military. He was ordered what to do and that was to go and make war and win that war, we don’t need to know Greek to understand this. The white horse represents a conquering king. It represents Rome and Europe,

 

I do wish you would not write a book for each post.  Look: you can be wrong if you choose - and it seems you have chosen. John used the color white 17 times in the book. And the book is REVELATION, without the S. I can assure you, God would NEVER have John use white 16 times for righteousness, and once for anything else. It would just NEVER HAPPEN. Next, you are putting the cart before the horse! If not gospel, no warring AGAINST the gospel. The Gospel was FIRST. THEN the attempts to stop it. Make no mistake, the first seal represents the church taking the gospel to the world: "Go and make disciples of all nations..." 

WHO was the spiritual ruler of all nations at that time (and still is)? Of course Satan. He was not going to just step asside and allow the gospel to expand into all nations - not without a fight! So he was allowed wars, famines, pestilences to stop the gospel. Yes, OF COURSE Satan used Rome, for it was inside the Roman Empire that the church started. There MUST be conquering and overcoming to get the gospel out. Look what happened to Stephen! The devil was constantly after Paul, trying to stop him. 

You are simply wrong here. It is no surprise.

If we look today, the church DID go to all nations. Satan lost this war. Always remember, this book is the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST. He sent the church out. The victory was through HIM. 

it really says nothing about religion  You are ignoring the WHITE Horse. In this book, WHITE always represents righteousness. The ONLY righteous entity on earth was the church. You are simply mistaken.

Edited January 4, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Royff said:

 The war that had to be win, I believe was the against Islam because one of these two, European or Muslims would take power and rule the world, had Islam won this war the Gospel had no chance for advancement. That’s why the rider of the white horse was commanded to win that war and he could not lose because he had already been given the crown. Now is any of this myth or is this clearly stated in the description of the white horse. Anything about religion is added to this, though I agree that at the root of all the whore of Babylon’s campaigns is religion, the whore [Lucifer] craves worship. But the main Job of this first horse is to win the war, that is the point of focus.

 

You are close to 1000 years off! You were OK with Rome, for Rome was certainly there in the first century. Islam was still to be created by Satan when the church was sent out. AGain, your theory is simply wrong. 

You are mistaken yet again, because the "whore of Babylon" in Revelation is ONLY for the last half of the 70th week. Yes, of course there was false religion back then, but this term was written by John ONLY for the religion of the Beast and False Prophet.  However, I think you are right: that religion WILL BE Islam. oh, just so you know, the first horse WAS victorious: there is hardly a spot on this planet where the gospel has not gone.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Royff said:

 I will not just sit by and listen to people regurgitate often repeated practiced lines and cut and paste scripture. I owe it to my soul to go beyond all self appointed prophets and bible interpreters, I want the whole story and not some denomination’s version of it, and that’s what we get in these forums. Now I’m going to show why I put no trust in scripture cutting and pasting, I’m not new to this but I am true to it. I watched over the past ten years that I’ve been on the internet and see where most of these bible interpreters gets their wisdom and it not from heaven but from man.

 

I could tell from the flavor of your first post I read that you were a special person - in your own eyes. You are one (maybe the only one) that has the truth. We all get it - because we have seen it over and over on these forums. The truth is, you THINK you know, but in fact, you don't. The truth is, your theories simply won't line up with the Word of God rightly divided. 

Just so you know, when someone cuts and pastes scripture, no changes are made. Our computers are good at that. I know the problem: your preconceptions don't fit what is pasted.