Follow The Lamb?

[Jostler]

6 hours ago, Marlene S said:

There are so many missing details on many of the important things we should understand. What do we do when we really cannot find the info needed to fully understand what is being said?

I believe that Christ Jesus did not leave anything hidden from us when He came and fulfilled the Law. The problem is that there are those today and in the past, from the beginning of the Church who do not want us/ the world to know the truth about Jesus Christ.

Remember that Satan sits on the throne here. He rules over the world-system.

I have been a Christian for over 40 years now and I have been seeking after old religious manuscripts for a long time. I have found many. Some are questionable as to their authenticity, but sometimes you find one that is just incredible.

A couple of years ago the Vatican released this Gospel which is said to have been in the Vatican vaults for almost 2000 years. I did post it on another thread 'Seek and ye shall find', but it did not get much reading. I think it is important the every Christians reads it.

It is not a gnostic or agnostic text. It had been hidden for a reason and when you read it you will see why.

It is called 'The Gospel of Nicodemus' or the Acts of Pontius Pilate. Do not judge the text before you read it. It is not long, but it explains so many things. The link is below; you can decide if it is from Christ or not.

The Gospel Of Nicodemus.pdf (PDFy mirror)

it's unusual for me to read the Apocrypha or extra-canonical texts but for some reason this  one interested me.  And I found it pretty fascinating reading, but I can't put it anywhere close to the level of Scripture.   I was relieved to see that as you stated it's certainly not a gnostic text and in fact whoever the author(s) were they had a broad and intimate knowledge of both Old and New Testament Scriptures.  By and large those early chapters seemed to me a pretty faithful paraphrase of a whole range of scriptures and I couldn't discern any mishandling.

But after that I began having some issues.  The descriptions of events in hell do not line up with Scripture in some pretty significant ways.  All in all, while some of it *might* have happened that way, we have no reliable witness from Scripture to prove  it.  One thing that stood out was the assertion that Beelzebub was the prince of hell and satan was a totally different being....and Beelzebub elevated to a position of greater power and authority than satan?  That doesn't fit the Bible at all to my knowledge.

So, I found it interesting, a good story, but I can't take anything of spiritual significance from it....it's not trustworthy.

It's "clean" enough I'm willing to speculate that the  author may  have had good intentions and a desire to defend the faith even.  But it's not the  Word  of God, and good intentions  or not, it's not Truth.

This might be more like Pilgrim's Progress....fiction intending to teach spiritual lessons   Maybe....thank you for sharing it, but i struggle to find anything truly useful in it?

Edited January 25, 2019 by Jostler

[UnprofitableServantJames]

8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Because they will believe in Jesus when they see Him coming in the clouds of heaven:

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Matt. 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Zech. 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn."

 

 

Hmmm. Not sure. If the 144,000 is described as 'following the Lamb wherever He goes', and the Jews don't decide to do that until Jesus returns, then it seems apparent that either the scripture is wrong, I'm interpreting it wrong, or your interpretation is incorrect.

 

One thing to consider is the idea that when Jesus returns in the clouds it is not to save those that choose to believe in Him in that moment, rather to come and destroy a wicked and rebellious world. The people grieve because they realize that Jesus was 'the way' all along.

In peace

[Marlene S]

On 1/25/2019 at 12:12 AM, Jostler said:

it's unusual for me to read the Apocrypha or extra-canonical texts but for some reason this  one interested me.  And I found it pretty fascinating reading, but I can't put it anywhere close to the level of Scripture.   I was relieved to see that as you stated it's certainly not a gnostic text and in fact whoever the author(s) were they had a broad and intimate knowledge of both Old and New Testament Scriptures.  By and large those early chapters seemed to me a pretty faithful paraphrase of a whole range of scriptures and I couldn't discern any mishandling.

But after that I began having some issues.  The descriptions of events in hell do not line up with Scripture in some pretty significant ways.  All in all, while some of it *might* have happened that way, we have no reliable witness from Scripture to prove  it.  One thing that stood out was the assertion that Beelzebub was the prince of hell and satan was a totally different being....and Beelzebub elevated to a position of greater power and authority than satan?  That doesn't fit the Bible at all to my knowledge.

So, I found it interesting, a good story, but I can't take anything of spiritual significance from it....it's not trustworthy.

It's "clean" enough I'm willing to speculate that the  author may  have had good intentions and a desire to defend the faith even.  But it's not the  Word  of God, and good intentions  or not, it's not Truth.

This might be more like Pilgrim's Progress....fiction intending to teach spiritual lessons   Maybe....thank you for sharing it, but i struggle to find anything truly useful in it?

It is very interesting the way some of us think about what we believe or not. Some of us would not believe anything 'religious' if it is not found in the Old or New Testaments. All of us realize that there are missing details we seem to need that are not found in Scripture.

I have found many religious texts related to the Bible in my search. For me, seeking after other texts is important as it relates to my personal journey.

The Gospel of Nicodemus is filled with information not found in the Bible, mainly giving more details concerning Jesus' trial.

The Gospel was part of the estate of Pontius Pilate; it was also used by the early Church.

It explains the resurrection or the dead at the time of Jesus' crucifixion. It tells us who the two Witnesses are. It also tells us that most went to Hell, and Christ did set the captives free.

Is Satan the prince of Hell? I thought he was the prince of the air and the prince of this world and the prince of Darkness.

Matt 12:24

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Mark 3:22

And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

It even when on to tell us that the Jews who killed Jesus came to know that He was the Messiah, even though they still kept it secret from the people.

You mentioned the part with Satan and Beelzebub, and because you do not know anything different concerning this, you disregard the entire text as being fake... interesting.

I found it useful to learn that Paradise is accessible to Humans once again. Christ opened the way for us to enter. Some go to Heaven and some go to Paradise to await the coming of our LORD.

I have read other texts from one of the Disciples of Jesus who saw the ascension when Christ was taking the captives with Him to Paradise.  He saw an Angel with a great sword with Christ. He was angry at the Jews for killing Jesus and wanted to destroy them, but Christ told him not to. He did use his sword at the Temple and shot a bolt of lightning at it and it destroyed the Temple. I do not take it as Gospel and it no way does it interfere with my belief or Faith in Christ, but it does add pieces to the puzzle and gives you a fuller picture.

You also said that you do not consider the Apocrypha as part of your studies. Do you realize that there are 500 years missing from your Bible. There are also the additional books from the Roman Catholic Bible. Books having valuable knowledge for Christians to gain greater understanding and strengthening of Faith. I guess it all comes down to us as individuals and the kinds of foods we eat. Peace, M.

[Jostler]

I didn't mean to give you the impression I have never read the Apocrypha.  I may not have read all of it but I know I've read Tobit, Sirac, I think I started 1 Esdras and never finished it but I  read 1st and 2nd Macabees.  I've read Enoch  and The Gospel of Barnabas.   All are ancient texts and have historical interest and have served to "flesh out" my understanding of what was circulating among early believers and in Enoch's case was obviously very familiar to pre-Christian Israelites.

But I do not take doctrine from any of them.  I personally place the 66 books of the Bible as we now have it on a pedestal so high every other text that  ever  was needs a spyglass to look up to it.   I've studied how we got that cannon, why certain books were not included and what the "litmus tests" for inclusion were deeply enough to be convinced that the Holy Spirit Himself oversaw that process. 

You made one statement that I do significantly disagree with:

Quote

All of us realize that there are missing details we seem to need that are not found in Scripture.

I simply have not found that to be even close to true.  Over the years as I have petitioned the Lord for understanding, He has been able to answer so many questions fully and completely that I am fully confident He can answer all the ones that remain the same way.  Or He  can guide me to an extra-canonical text if it's necessary.  So far He hasn't done that...ever.  I am supremely  confident that I will not exhaust the  revelation contained in those 66 books in this life time and  I am even deeply suspicious that we may never exhaust it in eternity

Yes, I do put the Bible on a plane of it's own and unless the Spirit  Himself changes that  for me it will stay there.  If He has led you  in another way  I can't speak to that and can't judge it for sure.  Be blessed

Quote

Phl 2:12

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

I could go into more detail about my reservations with the Gospel of Nicodemus but see little point in it?  I prefer to spend that time studying what I already have full confidence in.

[Shilohsfoal]

On 1/22/2019 at 4:16 AM, UnprofitableServantJames said:

Revelation 14:3-4, "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth...These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Many believe that the 144,000 are Jews. How can this be when the book of Revelation describes them as "following the Lamb (Jesus) wherever He goes." If Jews don't believe in Jesus, then how can they follow Him wherever He goes as the 144,000 are described as doing?

In peace

How would you like to walk in Jesus footsteps?

How would you like to be an israeli sent to preach the gospel throughout Israel and be rejected by your own,people?

How would you like being laughed at scorged in the synagogues?

How would you like tobe brought up befpre rulers to be judged for doing Gods will?

How would you like to have yourown familiy members betray you and deliver you up to be killed?

Its a tough life to follow the lamb but the reward is great.

[o0lBobl0o]

On 1/24/2019 at 6:23 PM, backontrack said:

Hum out of the millions of Jews in the world maybe there are 144,000 believers? 

Maybe so, at least at the time he seals them. Whenever that is.

[enoob57]

17 hours ago, Marlene S said:

It is very interesting the way some of us think about what we believe or not. Some of us would not believe anything 'religious' if it is not found in the Old or New Testaments. All of us realize that there are missing details we seem to need that are not found in Scripture.

I have found many religious texts related to the Bible in my search. For me, seeking after other texts is important as it relates to my personal journey.

The Gospel of Nicodemus is filled with information not found in the Bible, mainly giving more details concerning Jesus' trial.

The Gospel was part of the estate of Pontius Pilate; it was also used by the early Church.

I guess you think God got this wrong then?

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

Cause it sure is written otherwise....

[Marlene S]

On 1/26/2019 at 5:04 PM, Jostler said:

I didn't mean to give you the impression I have never read the Apocrypha.  I may not have read all of it but I know I've read Tobit, Sirac, I think I started 1 Esdras and never finished it but I  read 1st and 2nd Macabees.  I've read Enoch  and The Gospel of Barnabas.   All are ancient texts and have historical interest and have served to "flesh out" my understanding of what was circulating among early believers and in Enoch's case was obviously very familiar to pre-Christian Israelites.

But I do not take doctrine from any of them.  I personally place the 66 books of the Bible as we now have it on a pedestal so high every other text that  ever  was needs a spyglass to look up to it.   I've studied how we got that cannon, why certain books were not included and what the "litmus tests" for inclusion were deeply enough to be convinced that the Holy Spirit Himself oversaw that process. 

You made one statement that I do significantly disagree with:

I simply have not found that to be even close to true.  Over the years as I have petitioned the Lord for understanding, He has been able to answer so many questions fully and completely that I am fully confident He can answer all the ones that remain the same way.  Or He  can guide me to an extra-canonical text if it's necessary.  So far He hasn't done that...ever.  I am supremely  confident that I will not exhaust the  revelation contained in those 66 books in this life time and  I am even deeply suspicious that we may never exhaust it in eternity

Yes, I do put the Bible on a plane of it's own and unless the Spirit  Himself changes that  for me it will stay there.  If He has led you  in another way  I can't speak to that and can't judge it for sure.  Be blessed

I could go into more detail about my reservations with the Gospel of Nicodemus but see little point in it?  I prefer to spend that time studying what I already have full confidence in.

I also put the Bible on a plane of its own, it is the foundation of my faith. I pray for understanding and wisdom everyday, and over the course of forty years or so, I have found many religious texts. I have found texts on when Jesus was a young man, even their journey to Egypt when they fled Herod. There was an incident in the desert. I read about him as a six year old in Egypt, also how he traveled with Joseph of Arimathea to Asia and England.

There are texts on Mary when she was twelve and living in the temple as the young Jewish girls did, before they were married after puberty. Angel Gabriel appeared to her there first at twelve and then three years later. I read where Jesus had to bury His father Joseph when he was in his early twenties.

There are so many religious texts available and they are not the same as the Biblical texts, however they do give details if you are interested. Some Christians do not want to hear anything else but what is in the Old and New Testament and that is their choice. In my case I desire details and I have been led on paths where I have found much details. But, that is all it is... details, it does not change anything as to my faith.

There is even a detail description of Paul's journey to the Third heaven, the experience he could not describe at that time. He did write about it in great detail, but it is not in the Bible, so it must be 'fake'.

There are texts of Christ Jesus hanging out and teaching His disciples after His resurrection. You would be surprised as to how much is out there, from the universities and Vatican. They have only started putting their archives/libraries online. There are some texts that I am certain King James were not even aware of.

In my walk I have to seek the missing pieces I will find. I do not believe these texts to be Gospel. They are simply information, not knowledge. You do not study these texts, you simply read them for missing info. I have learned a lot, because I have found a lot and still seeking and finding. M.

 

[Marlene S]

12 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I guess you think God got this wrong then?

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

Cause it sure is written otherwise....

Why is it you read my post and came to your conclusion? I said 'missing details'. The Gospel of Salvation in Christ Jesus is Perfect, I never said the word of God was lacking in any way. The reason I recommended the Gospel of Nicodemus was because there was talk here about when Jesus died and there was the earthquake and the resurrection of the dead. The Bible does not give us details about that. Nicodemus does...

There are many things that are referenced in the Bible in a couple of sentences, but details are few, and it is left up to us to find the answers. The Gospel of Nicodemus does not make any difference in my faith, it changes nothing, actually it makes it stronger in a way.

I also know that it is important to ask Christ Jesus to reveal the hidden things to us, and in my personal experience I have seen a lot. I have been given a lot, because I have to do a lot and answer for a lot.

Perfection is what I seek in Christ Jesus. The text is not about anything that would change your belief in Jesus or the Bible; it is just the account of Pontius Pilate who recorded what happened during and after the trial of Jesus. Just information... M.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Marlene S

[enoob57]

On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 6:48 PM, Marlene S said:

Why is it you read my post and came to your conclusion? I said 'missing details'. The Gospel of Salvation in Christ Jesus is Perfect, I never said the word of God was lacking in any way. The reason I recommended the Gospel of Nicodemus was because there was talk here about when Jesus died and there was the earthquake and the resurrection of the dead. The Bible does not give us details about that. Nicodemus does...

There are many things that are referenced in the Bible in a couple of sentences, but details are few, and it is left up to us to find the answers. The Gospel of Nicodemus does not make any difference in my faith, it changes nothing, actually it makes it stronger in a way.

I also know that it is important to ask Christ Jesus to reveal the hidden things to us, and in my personal experience I have seen a lot. I have been given a lot, because I have to do a lot and answer for a lot.

Perfection is what I seek in Christ Jesus. The text is not about anything that would change your belief in Jesus or the Bible; it is just the account of Pontius Pilate who recorded what happened during and after the trial of Jesus. Just information... M.

It is not backed by God claiming it is His... you can believe whatever you wish to believe... the apocrypha or pseudepigrapha is from man not from God and the church has clearly identified it as such. Thus it is suspect at best to have any value at all thus placing it on advancement with The Bible is actually violating this Scripture

2 Cor 10:6

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
KJV
You see what you are doing is placing one account backed by God as His Word and another with so that all would assume that also of God …. It is God Who judges the thoughts and intents of the hearts and by this alone one should seek out the authority of why or what a thing is from....