Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[Spock]

Hey LA,

FWIW, while some here are not getting your message, it is coming in loud and clear to me. The flow of chapters 4 and 5 are not only obvious to me but very exciting.  We went from no one being worthy to finally Yeshua coming into the throne room to take the scroll.....he is NOW worthy. I completely agree with you....he did not become worthy until his ascension. 

So don’t get too disheartened, brother.....you are not alone seeing this. Later....

Spock

[simplejeff]

10 minutes ago, Spock said:

he did not become worthy until his ascension. 

No. 

 

Know that Jesus was always worthy, always perfect - only the timing was accomplished as written - His perfection did not change.  His worthiness never changed.  Eternity to Eternity,  always worthy, always echad with the Father,  one together , perfect in every way .

Edited March 4, 2019 by simplejeff

[Marilyn C]

47 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

No. 

 

Know that Jesus was always worthy, always perfect - only the timing was accomplished as written - His perfection did not change.  His worthiness never changed.  Eternity to Eternity,  always worthy, always echad with the Father,  one together , perfect in every way .

Hi simplejeff,

The Lord has always been perfect as you say, however for this particular purpose, the person had to be shown to be able to execute the judgments written on the scroll, without partiality, and of mankind.

1. The Lion of the tribe of Judah - born on earth of the ruling tribe of the ruling nation.

2. The Lamb as though slain - brought redemption to those who turn to Him.  

The Son of Man had shown that He was of mankind, and that He is upright in all His dealings, even to the point of His own death.

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Iamlamad,

"could anyone but "a man" become the redeemer of man"

Well, according to Kenneth Copeland, he says that he himself could have hung on that cross and been the redeemer.

A "man" could never have become the redeemer of men. Only the Son of Man could fulfill that role, only the begotten one of God could fulfill that roll. Only God, in the form of man, could fulfill that role.

"why you would accuse me of being deceitful."

It's your teachings that I accuse of being deceitful.

"One could imagine YOU had an agenda". 

You're right. I do have an agenda........ To expose error

OF COURSE No one was "lost." I have never even hinted such a silly thing

You keep saying that a search was made, and that Jesus was not there, not in heaven, nor on the earth, nor under the earth. This is implying that Jesus was "lost. No one "searches" for something that is there, they only search for something that is "lost."

You also said that a search was made from the time of Adam, and that there were many searches:"perhaps this search for one worthy to take this book and loose the seals had been ongoing since the days of Adam, another search starting the moment the previous one ends in failure."

So the question remains:

If Jesus was not in the throne room, and not on the earth, and not under the earth (in the grave)......

THEN WHERE WAS HE?

Can you answer this.....showing scripture?

If Copeland said that, He was in gross error! He was born of a man AND a woman. Jesus' Father was God. Copeland could never say that. Because Copeland's father was a man, then Copeland needed a savior!  Right! ONLY GOD in the form of a man! Good answer!

I would guess the only thing you have against my teaching is simple: you disagree. It is the same, many times I disagree with you.  The big question is, which of us disagrees with the written word? 

AH!  Your agenda and my agenda are the same! In this we are agreed! Hallelujah!

As for Jesus being lost. All I have done is quoted scripture. Look:

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

All I have done is copied  the scripture in red. I am sorry if you did not understand "worthy" went with that. I thought we ALL understood that this search was for one worthy to take the book and open the seals. I thought every reader would recognize I was quoting scripture. I was wrong. From now on, I will try to quote "no man was found WORTHY."

You keep saying that a search was made, and that Jesus was not there, not in heaven, nor on the earth, nor under the earth  No, I have NEVER written that!  What I have written many times is that "no man was found." Now I will have to add: [worthy].

John does not tell us that the angels were searching for "Jesus" by name! All we can determine is that they were looking for A MAN.  I think it is hinted strongly that it would be a man who would raise from the dead  - being the first man in hell to escape hell and the grave. 

Do you understand now that the REASON "no man was found worthy" is because at that time Jesus had not yet risen from the dead?

If Jesus was not in the throne room, and not on the earth, and not under the earth (in the grave)......

THEN WHERE WAS HE?  Can you answer this.....showing scripture?  

It is a silly question. But because I am a nice guy, I will answer. EVERY HUMAN ever born of a woman is either in heaven, on earth or under the earth. NO ONE has escaped from earth - unless you want to count the astronauts in space.  So OF COURSE Jesus was in one of these three places. It seems, however, that the intent of the Author for these two chapters has gone right over your head. 

The angels were NOT LOOKING for a certain named man: we can only guess they were looking for a man who could under his own power raise from the dead and escape hell.  We don't know for sure what was written on the outside of the book. We can only guess by what is written; when Jesus was found worthy, it was BECAUSE He had become the redeemer of man kind. That much is written. 

We can also state some of what becoming a redeemer would entail: He must, as you said before, be a GOD man.  He could not ever be born of a earthly man. No man born from man could ever become the Redeemer. It is a simple fact, we all sin. 

Have we ever resisted to droplets of blood? I think not. 

If I have not answered to your satisfaction, I will try again. I have no agenda other than to teach truth.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

I don't think anyone would deny that Jesus is the one who opens the seals.   So is there ever a time when Jesus would be considered unworthy? 

*[[Rom 1:4]] KJV* And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

The very moment of resurrection declared Jesus to be "the Son of God WITH power... and [full] of holiness".  The only point in time that might be a debatable point of worthiness would be when the sins of the world were upon him.   But his resurrecting from the dead changed all that.   So the apropo question is not "who is worthy",  but rather "who is worthy to open the seals".  But,  as I have demonstrated,  Jesus is not the orchestrator of judgments,  but he is the instrument of judgment: 

Verse list:    
Act 17:30-31 KJV    And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because HE [GOD] hath appointed a day, in the which HE will judge the world in righteousness BY THAT MAN whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Blessings

The PuP 

Was there ever a time when Jesus was NOT worthy to take the book and open the seals? Yes, ANY TIME before He rose from the dead to become the Redeemer of mankind. That is exactly what that first search John watched shows us. At that time NO ONE was found worthy.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

No. 

Know that Jesus was always worthy, always perfect - only the timing was accomplished as written - His perfection did not change.  His worthiness never changed.  Eternity to Eternity,  always worthy, always echad with the Father,  one together , perfect in every way .

You are mistaken if you are talking about worthy to take the book and open the seals. He only BECAME worthy to take the book after He rose from the dead.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, simplejeff said:

I hope you mean and can confirm that Jesus was always (eternally) worthy,  He is always "perfect"/ in holiness, in everything/  with no spot nor wrinkle nor hindrance ever,.......,

and

perfectly waited until the Father directed Him .....

In this case I must disagree. We are talking about being worthy to take the book and open the seals. It seems it was written on the outside of this scroll WHO could be worthy to do it. Before Jesus rose from the dead, no one in heaven, on earth or under the earth was found worthy to take the book. NO ONE!  The reason is simple: Jesus was LATER found worthy, but at this time, Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

The argument that Iamlamad has put forth,  seems to have no scriptures to counter his argument.   But it violates a contention of scripture that is quoted in many places. 

Jesus was not found worthy because it was not in God's time to execute his judgments. 

Blessings

The PuP 

You are close, because it is all a matter of TIME and TIMING. 

The first search John watched ended in failure because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead.

In the subsequent search, Jesus had risen from the dead and was then found worthy.

[JoeCanada]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If Copeland said that, He was in gross error! He was born of a man AND a woman. Jesus' Father was God. Copeland could never say that. Because Copeland's father was a man, then Copeland needed a savior!  Right! ONLY GOD in the form of a man! Good answer!

I would guess the only thing you have against my teaching is simple: you disagree. It is the same, many times I disagree with you.  The big question is, which of us disagrees with the written word? 

AH!  Your agenda and my agenda are the same! In this we are agreed! Hallelujah!

As for Jesus being lost. All I have done is quoted scripture. Look:

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

All I have done is copied  the scripture in red. I am sorry if you did not understand "worthy" went with that. I thought we ALL understood that this search was for one worthy to take the book and open the seals. I thought every reader would recognize I was quoting scripture. I was wrong. From now on, I will try to quote "no man was found WORTHY."

You keep saying that a search was made, and that Jesus was not there, not in heaven, nor on the earth, nor under the earth  No, I have NEVER written that!  What I have written many times is that "no man was found." Now I will have to add: [worthy].

John does not tell us that the angels were searching for "Jesus" by name! All we can determine is that they were looking for A MAN.  I think it is hinted strongly that it would be a man who would raise from the dead  - being the first man in hell to escape hell and the grave. 

Do you understand now that the REASON "no man was found worthy" is because at that time Jesus had not yet risen from the dead?

If Jesus was not in the throne room, and not on the earth, and not under the earth (in the grave)......

THEN WHERE WAS HE?  Can you answer this.....showing scripture?  

It is a silly question. But because I am a nice guy, I will answer. EVERY HUMAN ever born of a woman is either in heaven, on earth or under the earth. NO ONE has escaped from earth - unless you want to count the astronauts in space.  So OF COURSE Jesus was in one of these three places. It seems, however, that the intent of the Author for these two chapters has gone right over your head. 

The angels were NOT LOOKING for a certain named man: we can only guess they were looking for a man who could under his own power raise from the dead and escape hell.  We don't know for sure what was written on the outside of the book. We can only guess by what is written; when Jesus was found worthy, it was BECAUSE He had become the redeemer of man kind. That much is written. 

We can also state some of what becoming a redeemer would entail: He must, as you said before, be a GOD man.  He could not ever be born of a earthly man. No man born from man could ever become the Redeemer. It is a simple fact, we all sin. 

Have we ever resisted to droplets of blood? I think not. 

If I have not answered to your satisfaction, I will try again. I have no agenda other than to teach truth.

Iamlamad,

I kid you not. Kenneth Copeland said that. Not that I adhere to ANY of his teachings, they are heretical. The man is a false teacher. I was scrolling through the tv channels many years ago, and I saw his name. I figured I'd watch and see what this guy is teaching. Lo and behold......

Ok, let's address something else you said:

"Someone came up to John and told him to stop weeping, for someone had been found worthy. Then John turned and saw a Lamb, “having been slain.” That Lamb was simply not there the moment before! John got to see in vision form, the moment Jesus ascended, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Once Mary left Him, He ascended and entered the throne room, and John got to see this very moment in time, in the vision! Then we read that He came with the Holy Spirit, who was immediately sent down to the earth."

The Holy Spirit could not have been sent down at that time. The Holy Spirit was not sent until Pentecost, many days later.

Care to explain.

 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are mistaken if you are talking about worthy to take the book and open the seals. He only BECAME worthy to take the book after He rose from the dead.

This denies the deity of Christ. Jesus wrote what was in that scroll. Jesus created the world, destroyed it in a flood, gave the Commandments, was the pillar of fire and the pillar of cloud, the wanderers in the desert lived and died under Jesus Christ. 

The point you miss is the example Jesus gave us of the faithful son. His life on earth did not make him worthy, nor did his resurrection, it was example and proof, as he is and was worthy from the beginning of time and forever, Jesus is God.