Revelation Man Posted February 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 4,067 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 551 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2016 Status: Online Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, JoeCanada said: Hi RM, It was in YOUR post that YOU quoted the article by Reagan. Am I to believe that you don't believe what he wrote. You didn't follow up with anything suggesting otherwise. So that is why I pointed out that Reagan's teachings are false. The guy is who he is. I wouldn't respect any of his teachings. "he may have valid points, I haven't studied it." Well, you should have, before you posted it. I answer most of your posts. But sometimes I just shake my head. In YOUR OPINION.............Likewise I think the Post trib is incorrect, but I am not going to call you a False Teacher. If he thinks that way he might be right, to me it's pointless. I think it's a tactic, you brought it up not to answer the points he made. I agree with no one on everything, nor do you I suppose, so I think you just tried to dodge the points he made because you can't answer them brother. Just being honest. What you mean is most of the time you have no rebut, I get it. God Bless. P.S. No rebut means my point has to be considered valid. Edited February 11, 2019 by Revelation Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted February 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2019 10 hours ago, Steve Conley said: OC, There is not a single verse of Scripture that suggests the church is removed before the period of unprecedented persecution of the elect takes place. The pre-trib error which also I taught for 30 years involved a misunderstanding of the nature of the great tribulation, thinking that it was the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. The great tribulation and God's wrath on the day of the Lord are separated by the cosmic sign, the first resurrection, and the rapture. We must be removed from the earth to a place of safety before the salvos of God's wrath begins to fall. A Post-Tribber can easily come to the conclusion that now you have been misled twice now. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted February 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2019 If you are a father and see your child walk ahead of you in the parking lot only then to see that a car is backing out and your child, who is oblivious of impending danger, is in harms way ready to be run over...what would you do? As a loving father I would hope that you would run and “snatch “ your child from danger or harm. Would our loving Father in Heaven do less than you a mortal here on earth? That is the reason for the rapture, Snatching or any other word related to the rapture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted February 11, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2019 15 hours ago, JoeCanada said:Hi LL, That is why Jesus referred to His meeting us in the air as a thief in he night.....silent. Not sure where you found a scripture that says that Jesus referred to His meeting us in the air as a thief in the night....silent. It will be anything but silent. 1 Thes 4:16: 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [a]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first? ______ Only the dead in Christ hear his shout those alive hear the trumpet or shout. ______ His voice will command all those in the grave to rise. (the righteous) His voice will reverberate through the whole universe. Then the blast of a trumpet. ______ Where does it say the universe will hear the trumpet or shout? _______ Here are the scriptures that do refer to Him coming "like a thief": Revelation 16:15 English Standard Version (ESV) 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) ______ Notice it says “Blessed is the one who stays awake” _______ Matthew 24:43 English Standard Version (ESV) 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. ______ Again if the master had known he was coming he would have stayed awake...not slept. ______ 1 Thessalonians 5:2 English Standard Version (ESV) 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. ______ A thief comes silently so as not to awaken anyone. _______ 1 Thessalonians 5:4 English Standard Version (ESV) 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 2 Peter 3:10 English Standard Version (ESV) 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies[a] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.[b] Now look at 1 Thes 5:1-4: 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 English Standard Version (ESV) The Day of the Lord 5 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers,[a] you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief." It is not the believers that will be in darkness, but the unbelievers. Paul tells us that we are not in darkness for that day to surprise us like a thief. The "Day of the Lord" will come "like a thief in the night" to the unbelievers only. The Day of the Lord, the Day of God's wrath upon all the unbelievers and sinners, will happen after the celestial/terrestrial disturbances (Joel 2:30-31) after the resurrection and rapture of all the saints. The Great Tribulation, the celestial/terrestrial signs, the resurrection/rapture, the Day (year) of the Lord. In that order. ______ You are wrong. If you read Revelation after chapter 2 there is no mention of the Church. It has been removed and is in heaven celebrating the wedding and wedding feast . The next time the the church or bride is seen is when she accompanies the Lord before the millennium begins, accompanying the Lord on white horses with the heavenly host. _______ Isaiah tells us in Isaiah vs 34:8, 61:2, and 63:4......that the Day of the Lord will last approx 1 year. ""For the day of vengeance (wrath) was in my heart, and My year of redemption has come" "To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord, and the Day of vengeance (wrath) of our God" "For the Lord has a Day of vengeance (wrath), a year of recompense for the cause of Zion" I don't see anywhere in all of scripture that says the Day of the Lord is 7 years long. (pre-trib speculation). The only way to come up with this is to equate the entire 70th week of Daniel as the Day of the Lord. (which pre-trib does) There is no 7 year Great Tribulation. Not to be found! Always the coming of the Lord is as a thief in the night. What thief wants to come and be heard, or interfered with? Always silently in the night. the only ones to hear the trumpet and shout are those born again ...changed immediately and rise to meet the Lord in the air. He will escort us through the enemy territory, though Satan’s domain...he is the ruler of the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 12, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2019 On 2/11/2019 at 2:54 AM, Revelation Man said: In YOUR OPINION.............Likewise I think the Post trib is incorrect, but I am not going to call you a False Teacher. If he thinks that way he might be right, to me it's pointless. I think it's a tactic, you brought it up not to answer the points he made. I agree with no one on everything, nor do you I suppose, so I think you just tried to dodge the points he made because you can't answer them brother. Just being honest. What you mean is most of the time you have no rebut, I get it. God Bless. P.S. No rebut means my point has to be considered valid. "No rebut means" the point "has to be considered valid:" I disagree. Sometimes a point is so far off the beaten path one can only shake their head in wonder and not even consider answering it! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 12, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2019 On 2/10/2019 at 10:26 PM, OldCoot said: Really? The pre-trib position seems to motivate many who hold it to recognize that the time is short and those that remain behind are in grave danger. It motivates those of us who hold that position to seek out the lost and show them the Gospel of salvation because we believe the time is short. It also keeps those of us who hold to this position to a standard of staying in right relationship with the Lord because He could gather us at any moment. The only risk we could possibly be in is being asleep spiritually and not focused on what we are called to be. If the position is in error, then how would those who hold to the position be at risk for their safety? Because they didn't follow the fad du jour and become self absorbed super preppers? And given the technology of today, how would anyone who hold an alternate position and goes into that period be any more safe than a pre-tribber? It is extreme arrogance to think that one is going to be safe during that time based on an eschatology. Too many false assumptions. But that's ok. We will explain it further on the way up. All those that are redeemed will be part of that removal. Even if they hold a alternate eschatology. Those that do hold an alternate eschatology seem to imply that those who hold to a pre-trib position are somehow not redeemed or at best, marginal Christians. It becomes a "I am better than you" philosophy. So what is the source of redemption of the believer? Eschatology or the atonement of the Messiah? Pre-trib adherents are all inclusive. We believe that all of the redeemed will be removed prior to that period. All those that are redeemed thru the Messiah will be removed. It is not the best way to approach this, but based on the many anti pre-trib arguments, I am even more motivated to hold to a pre-trib position. At least it offers the greatest hope. Every other postion offers this..... The Messiah betrothed us to Himself, but He has so little regard for us that He wants us to go thru the worse period of history to befall the earth and then afterwards have supper with us. it almost smacks of a works righteousness gospel. That we somehow have to prove our worthiness of His redemption. I see that as the ultimate insult to Him. Good post, but I have a question and/or a comment or two. 1 Thes. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. How in the world can a posttrib believer comfort another believer when teaching them that there is no pretrib rapture and they are going to face the Beast and probably lose their head? Ever wonder about this? Next, what do you make of this verse: Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. If I thought something else MUST come before Christ comes, this verse would bother me! Are posttribbers "looking" for Him? I don't see how. Are prewrathers "looking" for Him? How can either of these groups of people be looking for HIM when they expect something else first? This verse makes me wonder if they will even hear the trumpet. Your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted February 13, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted February 13, 2019 47 minutes ago, iamlamad said: Good post, but I have a question and/or a comment or two. 1 Thes. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. How in the world can a posttrib believer comfort another believer when teaching them that there is no pretrib rapture and they are going to face the Beast and probably lose their head? Ever wonder about this? Next, what do you make of this verse: Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. If I thought something else MUST come before Christ comes, this verse would bother me! Are posttribbers "looking" for Him? I don't see how. Are prewrathers "looking" for Him? How can either of these groups of people be looking for HIM when they expect something else first? This verse makes me wonder if they will even hear the trumpet. Your thoughts? Why do you fear death so much, the Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Read the verse again, He shall appear a second time (as in the second coming). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCanada Posted February 13, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,249 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 672 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 hour ago, iamlamad said: Good post, but I have a question and/or a comment or two. 1 Thes. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. How in the world can a posttrib believer comfort another believer when teaching them that there is no pretrib rapture and they are going to face the Beast and probably lose their head? Ever wonder about this? Hi Iamlamad, Here is the whole verse where we are told to comfort one another with these words: 1 Thes 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." We are to comfort those that grieve......those that sorrow. Friend, grieve not, for....." Christ will bring back those that have died in Him, back with Him to meet us in the air" Those are comforting words. I don't see any post trib or pretrib here at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCanada Posted February 13, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,249 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 672 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 hour ago, iamlamad said: Next, what do you make of this verse: Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. If I thought something else MUST come before Christ comes, this verse would bother me! Are posttribbers "looking" for Him? I don't see how. Are prewrathers "looking" for Him? How can either of these groups of people be looking for HIM when they expect something else first? This verse makes me wonder if they will even hear the trumpet. Your thoughts? Hi Iamlamad, Then God said, “Let there be [a]lights in the [b]expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;..... 16 God made the two [e]great lights, the greater [f]light [g]to govern the day, and the lesser [h]light [i]to govern the night; He made the stars also......Gen 1:14 So God gave us the sun and moon, not just for light but also for signs. 29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [a]the sky, and the powers of [b]the heavens will be shaken.".....Math 24 Is this a sign for us to watch for? I think so! I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. 31 “The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes......Joel 2:30-31 Isn't this another sign to watch for? "Then there will be signs in the sun and moon................. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near"....Luke 21:25-28 "Therefore when you SEE the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the Prophet.....".....Math 24:15 "Look".....that is what Jesus is telling us to do. Look for signs. When you see................ So here is the question one should be asking....... How can pretribbers be looking for Him? According to their theory on "imminence".....He could have come back at anytime in the last 2000 years. Nothing needed to be fulfilled. Not even the 7 church "ages" in Rev., which kinda blows the theory of imminence right out of the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCanada Posted February 13, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,249 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 672 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 13, 2019 On 2/10/2019 at 8:26 PM, OldCoot said: Every other postion offers this..... The Messiah betrothed us to Himself, but He has so little regard for us that He wants us to go thru the worse period of history to befall the earth and then afterwards have supper with us. it almost smacks of a works righteousness gospel. That we somehow have to prove our worthiness of His redemption. I see that as the ultimate insult to Him. Hi OC, Hmmmmmm..... I have never come across a scripture that says that when someone puts their faith in Christ, is washed by the blood of the Lamb, believes in the resurrection, etc......that they are then immune from any tribulation, that persecution would not come near to them, that they are protected until the day they are resurrected/raptured. What I do see is...."Through much persecution we must enter the kingdom of God"...Acts 14:22 (Rom 5:3-4) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; (4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope. (Rom 8:35-36) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter, (Matt 5:10-12) Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (1 Pet 1:6-7)(NASB) In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary you have been distressed by various trials. (7) so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. That's just a few of many that are throughout scripture. To say that God would never allow his Church to suffer kinda flies in the face of what the Holy Spirit says throughout the bible. Our brothers and sisters who are "living the persecuted Church" in 51 different countries around the world, I'm sure they would tell you differently. What makes the Church in the west so special to think that God won't allow "them" to have their faith tested? As one writer on here said..."Our loving Father would never allow His children to suffer through any tribulation". We need to rethink this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts