Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Except it doesn't say any of that in Revelation 4 & 5.

And it couldn't be in 32AD even if it was in the first century. Those churches of chapters 2 & 3 that had been written to are real churches that did not exist in 32AD. 

And John is quite clear in the opening verse of Chapter 4.... "after these things" which "these things" has it direct object of the "churches" that had been written to previously.   So whatever time frame is being referenced by John, it is after these churches and definitely after 32AD.   And the first seal is not broken until "after these things" which is after the churches.   And that it couldn't refer to 32AD would be especially true since many of the early church writers who knew John or knew Polycarp, one of John's students, wrote that the Revelation was written around 95AD.  

 

I hate to say this, but it appears you too have preconceived glasses! They are preventing you from reading what the text is really saying.

Rev. 5:1 And I saw....John is seeing a vision.

3...no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it...John watched this search that ended in failure: no man was found in this search - so John wept much.

⁴ So I wept much..A day, a week, a month? We don't know, but some considerable amount of time. Another search was started after the one John watched ended: but John was weeping so did not watch the next search.

⁵ But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and ^[b]to loose its seven seals.” Reading between the lines, we can tell another search was made, and this time JESUS was found. Why was He not found in the first search John watched? The only difference was TIME. Jesus was NOT found in the first search telling us He had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer of the world.  But TIME passed as another search was undertaken, and in this subsequent search, JESUS was found worthy! What happened as time passed? Jesus became the redeemer! He rose from the dead.

⁶ And I looked, ^[c]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. ⁷ Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. Note carefully, up to this point the Author was careful to show that Jesus was NO THERE in the throne room in this vision. "no man was found" to show us that Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father to show us Jesus was on earth or under the earth at that moment in time in the vision.  But this vision shows us the MOVEMENT OF TIME: Jesus did not stay under the earth! He rose from the dead. And we know from other scriptures that after He rose, He showed Himself to Mary, then ascended. Verse 6 shows us that moment in time that He ascended. How did He look? "As a lamb having been slain." In the vision He must have appeared as a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes - or appears WITH the Holy Spirit Which John tells us was sent into all the earth. After all, Jesus TOLD THEM that as soon as He would ascend, He would send the Holy Spirit down. John then saw the moment He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. 

DON'T ALLOW preconceptions to steal this real meaning. God is showing us TIMING. 

Notice the first thing Jesus did after ascending: He took the book!

 

⁹ And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals;
For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
¹⁰ And have made ^[d]us kings^[e] and priests to our God;
And ^[f]we shall reign on the earth.”

Notice WHY Jesus became worthy to take the book: this also gives us a hint as to the kind of man they were searching for. They were looking for a REDEEMER! 

You are free to pull any of these verses out of context and make them say something different. I am saying the very PURPOSE of these two chapters is to give us the TIMING of the opening of the first seals. You cannot find 2000 years in these verses because that was not the intent of the Author. HIS intent was that Jesus took the book and began to open the seals as soon as He ascended.

it couldn't be in 32AD   It was a vision of the PAST to John around 95 AD. We determine the TIMING of the vision by what John described: a throne room without Jesus.

After these things is only a transitional phrase John used when God changed the subject. Yes, it was indeed after God quit dictating the messages to the churches. Don't read into that phrase what is not intended by the Author! It is preconceptions showing up again.

You are missing a main point: a vision can be ANY TIME: past, present or future. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 5/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, Spock said:

Greetings brother Jude,

I can see at least three, million dollar questions that have come out of your post here:

1. When does the 6th seal take place? I am leaning toward believing it may take place around the middle of Daniels 70th week. Of course, if it comes before the week, I’m cool with that too. But I really expect to see the “covenant being confirmed”, the Jews rebuild their temple, and the sacrifices resuming. 

2. When is the man of sin revealed pursuant to 2 Thess 2?  Is it at the covenant being confirmed or when the abomination of desolation occurs?  I happen to believe it may be at the abomination date. 

3. What does “after the tribulation” mean?  Is it everything that occurs before the abomination? Does it cover the entire 7 year period? Does it cover everything before the 7 year week?  As for me, I’m open to thinking this is everything that happens before GREAT TRIBULATION.  I’m sure we all can agree there has been tribulation ever since Christ left this planet and ascended to Heaven.  We all must go through much trial and tribulation before we can enter Heaven. 

I don’t want to be redundant here but I think I’ve been clear outlining my position thinking there is a good chance the rapture will occur mid week. 

Shalom,

spock

Nice to see you again here, Spock! I think when Jesus said, "after the tribulation" He was refering to the entire 70th week, the first half, the last half with the days of great tribulation, and then the end. It corresponds with His coming in chapter 19, after the week has ended in chapter 16.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I hate to say this, but it appears you too have preconceived glasses!

I once worked with a lady who told me that after her third divorce she came to realize that it wasn't them.

[OldCoot]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I hate to say this, but it appears you too have preconceived glasses! They are preventing you from reading what the text is really saying.

Rev. 5:1 And I saw....John is seeing a vision.

3...no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it...John watched this search that ended in failure: no man was found in this search - so John wept much.

⁴ So I wept much..A day, a week, a month? We don't know, but some considerable amount of time. Another search was started after the one John watched ended: but John was weeping so did not watch the next search.

⁵ But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and ^[b]to loose its seven seals.” Reading between the lines, we can tell another search was made, and this time JESUS was found. Why was He not found in the first search John watched? The only difference was TIME. Jesus was NOT found in the first search telling us He had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer of the world.  But TIME passed as another search was undertaken, and in this subsequent search, JESUS was found worthy! What happened as time passed? Jesus became the redeemer! He rose from the dead.

⁶ And I looked, ^[c]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. ⁷ Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. Note carefully, up to this point the Author was careful to show that Jesus was NO THERE in the throne room in this vision. "no man was found" to show us that Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father to show us Jesus was on earth or under the earth at that moment in time in the vision.  But this vision shows us the MOVEMENT OF TIME: Jesus did not stay under the earth! He rose from the dead. And we know from other scriptures that after He rose, He showed Himself to Mary, then ascended. Verse 6 shows us that moment in time that He ascended. How did He look? "As a lamb having been slain." In the vision He must have appeared as a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes - or appears WITH the Holy Spirit Which John tells us was sent into all the earth. After all, Jesus TOLD THEM that as soon as He would ascend, He would send the Holy Spirit down. John then saw the moment He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. 

DON'T ALLOW preconceptions to steal this real meaning. God is showing us TIMING. 

Notice the first thing Jesus did after ascending: He took the book!

 

⁹ And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals;
For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
¹⁰ And have made ^[d]us kings^[e] and priests to our God;
And ^[f]we shall reign on the earth.”

Notice WHY Jesus became worthy to take the book: this also gives us a hint as to the kind of man they were searching for. They were looking for a REDEEMER! 

You are free to pull any of these verses out of context and make them say something different. I am saying the very PURPOSE of these two chapters is to give us the TIMING of the opening of the first seals. You cannot find 2000 years in these verses because that was not the intent of the Author. HIS intent was that Jesus took the book and began to open the seals as soon as He ascended.

it couldn't be in 32AD   It was a vision of the PAST to John around 95 AD. We determine the TIMING of the vision by what John described: a throne room without Jesus.

After these things is only a transitional phrase John used when God changed the subject. Yes, it was indeed after God quit dictating the messages to the churches. Don't read into that phrase what is not intended by the Author! It is preconceptions showing up again.

You are missing a main point: a vision can be ANY TIME: past, present or future. 

I could likewise say the same about you seeing things thru your preconceptions, but I would be stooping to your level.

There were no chapter and verse divisions in the original.  Therefore, the “after these things” I see from a textual construct and grammatical aspect.  In that case, it would refer to the immediate subject of the writing that preceded it,  the churches.

True the subject changed, but that in no way negates the grammatical principle.

Less ambiguity when one follows well established and recognized hermeneutical and grammatical principles.  Otherwise, one could make it fit anything they wanted.

Edited May 24, 2019 by OldCoot
Spelling

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I could likewise say the same about you seeing things thru your preconceptions, but I would be stooping to your level.

There were no chapter and verse divisions in the original.  Therefore, the “after these things” I see from a textual construct and grammatical aspect.  In that case, it would refer to the immediate subject of the writing that preceded it,  the churches.

True the subject changed, but that in no way negates the grammatical principle.

Less ambiguity when one follows well established and recognized grammatical principles.  Otherwise, one could make it fit anything they wanted.

A true student of the word must be consistent: John used a similar phrase 6 different times in Revelation. Does anyone try to put your meaning to the other 5? If so, I have never heard it!

Example:  Rev 7:1  After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.

Rev. 7:9  After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

John uses these phrases as a transition from one vision to another, or when God changes the subject. Trying to add more meaning is simply not good exegesis.  Face it: it is a FACT: after God quit dictating to John the messages to each church, JOHN was called up to heaven; in other words, a change in what God was showing John. Do you imagine God took John 2000 years into the future when He was called up to the throne room? No, in fact, if anything He took John about 60 years in the the past! 

The first seal is the church sent out with the gospel, so your theory that the church age ends in 4:1 does not fit.

What was John told?  

2:^19 [k]Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. ²⁰ The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.  “1  To the angel of the church of Ephesus write..., 3:²² “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”  4:1 After this I looked...

 

John was told to write to EXISTING church existing around 95 AD. And after God ended telling John what to write to the churches, John looked - and saw a door in heaven.....TIME? 95 AD. NOT 2000 years into the future! JOHN was called up, not the church of 2020!

You are miles off from the  intent of the Author!

Edited May 24, 2019 by iamlamad

[OldCoot]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

A true student of the word must be consistent: John used a similar phrase 6 different times in Revelation. Does anyone try to put your meaning to the other 5? If so, I have never heard it!

Example:  Rev 7:1  After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.

Rev. 7:9  After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

John uses these phrases as a transition from one vision to another, or when God changes the subject. Trying to add more meaning is simply not good exegesis.  Face it: it is a FACT: after God quit dictating to John the messages to each church, JOHN was called up to heaven; in other words, a change in what God was showing John. Do you imagine God took John 2000 years into the future when He was called up to the throne room? No, in fact, if anything He took John about 60 years in the the past! 

The first seal is the church sent out with the gospel, so your theory that the church age ends in 4:1 does not fit.

What was John told?  

2:^19 [k]Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. ²⁰ The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.  “1  To the angel of the church of Ephesus write..., 3:²² “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”  4:1 After this I looked...

 

John was told to write to EXISTING church existing around 95 AD. And after God ended telling John what to write to the churches, John looked - and saw a door in heaven.....TIME? 95 AD. NOT 2000 years into the future! JOHN was called up, not the church of 2020!

You are miles off from the  intent of the Author!

Could be.  But there are many theologians who are more learned on these things than you or I that see the passage the same way as I have expressed.  That you don't doesn't necessarily provide evidence to the contrary.  

One has to look at what all is going on in chapters 5-6.  One of the major things is the Elders.  Lots of speculation about who they are, but they call themselves kings and priests in many translations, and that is a classification reserved only for the redeemed, and they claimed to be the redeemed of all the tribes and tongues of the earth.  Not angels.  Then we see how King David divided the priests into 24 classes in ancient Israel and a picture starts to emerge.  Also, that the church is never mentioned again until the final salutation of the Revelation.  If the church was still on earth, one would think it was important to mention them in all the mess going on.  It would seem that the collective body of Messiah, the church, is in heaven after chapter 3.    Sure, saints are mentioned, but then in Matthew 27, saints were mentioned as being resurrected shortly after Yeshua's resurrection, but the church did not come into being for another 50 days.  So one can have saints and not be the church as reference in the NT and specifically the Revelation. 

And Yeshua appears as the lamb who has been slain.  Just like the scripture says that He has no beauty that we would be naturally attracted to Him and as the sacrificed lamb, He no longer had the appearance of a man because of all the beating He had taken. All of this description in the scriptures.  And when John did see Him, Yeshua appeared as He had been slain.  His beard had been ripped out per the scripture, His ribs stood out per the scripture.  All His bones were out of joint per the scripture.  He no longer looked like a man per the scripture.  So it would not be out of line that John did not see Yeshua when he first looked about and only recognized Him later after one of the Elders pointed Him out.

There is no one verse that teaches regarding these things.  Just like there is no one verse that outlines the totality of the Triune nature of Yahweh.  All one can do is compare passages and try to see what is being conveyed by the HS.  And as Paul stated, we see thru a mirror dimly. No one has a total lock on all of these things.  A true students of the word realizes that.

I don't happen to agree with your take, you don't agree with mine. All of that is ok.  Eschatology is not a condition of Salvation. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by OldCoot

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Could be.  But there are many theologians who are more learned on these things than you or I that see the passage the same way as I have expressed.  That you don't doesn't necessarily provide evidence to the contrary.  

One has to look at what all is going on in chapters 5-6.  One of the major things is the Elders.  Lots of speculation about who they are, but they call themselves kings and priests in many translations, and that is a classification reserved only for the redeemed, and they claimed to be the redeemed of all the tribes and tongues of the earth.  Not angels.  Then we see how King David divided the priests into 24 classes in ancient Israel and a picture starts to emerge.  Also, that the church is never mentioned again until the final salutation of the Revelation.  If the church was still on earth, one would think it was important to mention them in all the mess going on.  It would seem that the collective body of Messiah, the church, is in heaven after chapter 3.    Sure, saints are mentioned, but then in Matthew 27, saints were mentioned as being resurrected shortly after Yeshua's resurrection, but the church did not come into being for another 50 days.  So one can have saints and not be the church as reference in the NT and specifically the Revelation. 

And Yeshua appears as the lamb who has been slain.  Just like the scripture says that He has no beauty that we would be naturally attracted to Him and as the sacrificed lamb, He no longer had the appearance of a man because of all the beating He had taken. All of this description in the scriptures.  And when John did see Him, Yeshua appeared as He had been slain.  His beard had been ripped out per the scripture, His ribs stood out per the scripture.  All His bones were out of joint per the scripture.  He no longer looked like a man per the scripture.  So it would not be out of line that John did not see Yeshua when he first looked about and only recognized Him later after one of the Elders pointed Him out.

There is no one verse that teaches regarding these things.  Just like there is no one verse that outlines the totality of the Triune nature of Yahweh.  All one can do is compare passages and try to see what is being conveyed by the HS.  And as Paul stated, we see thru a mirror dimly. No one has a total lock on all of these things.  A true students of the word realizes that.

I don't happen to agree with your take, you don't agree with mine. All of that is ok.  Eschatology is not a condition of Salvation. 

Everything in Eschatology about the End Times is centered around the 1260 middle of the week event. Way too many people read too much into single phrases or passages and go off on tangents or complete Eschatological Dead Ends all because they don't treat the bible as a mosaic. If they would just take a step back, swallow their pride, and admit that we Humans are often wrong, but God never is, then I am convinced they could see where they veer off the path at times.

Jesus opens that First Seal and boom, we are in the Wrath of God. Here's another place they go off on a tangent, they say the Wrath doesn't come until the 6th Seal, when all of the first 6 Seals are opened basically at the same time. The first Four aren't paused to wait on them to come to pass because all four are about the 42 month reign of the Anti-Christ, the 5th is about the deaths of Martyrs during the 42 month reign, so they are opened Boom, boom, boom, boom, Boom.....6th Seal BOOM......God commands a pause to allow the 144,000 {Millions of Jews who repented or ALL ISRAEL} to reach the Petra/Bozrah area of safety. Then the 7th Seal is opened only after they are safe {sealed in the head}. 

Everything is centered around the Middle of the week or 1260 for a reason. No seals have been opened. 

Edited May 25, 2019 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Could be.  But there are many theologians who are more learned on these things than you or I that see the passage the same way as I have expressed.  That you don't doesn't necessarily provide evidence to the contrary.  

One has to look at what all is going on in chapters 5-6.  One of the major things is the Elders.  Lots of speculation about who they are, but they call themselves kings and priests in many translations, and that is a classification reserved only for the redeemed, and they claimed to be the redeemed of all the tribes and tongues of the earth.  Not angels.  Then we see how King David divided the priests into 24 classes in ancient Israel and a picture starts to emerge.  Also, that the church is never mentioned again until the final salutation of the Revelation.  If the church was still on earth, one would think it was important to mention them in all the mess going on.  It would seem that the collective body of Messiah, the church, is in heaven after chapter 3.    Sure, saints are mentioned, but then in Matthew 27, saints were mentioned as being resurrected shortly after Yeshua's resurrection, but the church did not come into being for another 50 days.  So one can have saints and not be the church as reference in the NT and specifically the Revelation. 

And Yeshua appears as the lamb who has been slain.  Just like the scripture says that He has no beauty that we would be naturally attracted to Him and as the sacrificed lamb, He no longer had the appearance of a man because of all the beating He had taken. All of this description in the scriptures.  And when John did see Him, Yeshua appeared as He had been slain.  His beard had been ripped out per the scripture, His ribs stood out per the scripture.  All His bones were out of joint per the scripture.  He no longer looked like a man per the scripture.  So it would not be out of line that John did not see Yeshua when he first looked about and only recognized Him later after one of the Elders pointed Him out.

There is no one verse that teaches regarding these things.  Just like there is no one verse that outlines the totality of the Triune nature of Yahweh.  All one can do is compare passages and try to see what is being conveyed by the HS.  And as Paul stated, we see thru a mirror dimly. No one has a total lock on all of these things.  A true students of the word realizes that.

I don't happen to agree with your take, you don't agree with mine. All of that is ok.  Eschatology is not a condition of Salvation. 

I am quite sure of one thing concerning the learned - those that wrote commentaries - they did not wait on the Lord, praying in the Spirit, waiting for HIS input.  They just did the best they could do with human reasoning.  I heard from the Author. I am confident that what He said fits what these scriptures tell us.  No, not one verse, but every verse together in chapters 4 and 5 are telling us TIMING! It is the very purpose Jesus included these two chapters: to set the timing of the seals. I agree; it is OK if we don't agree on these things.

Edited May 24, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Everything in Eschatology about the End Times is centered around the 1260 middle of the week event. Way too many people read too much int single phrases or passages and go off on tangents or complete Eschatological Dead Ends all because they don't treat the bible as a mosaic. If they would just take a step back, swallow their pride, and amit Humans are often wrong, but God never is, then I am convinced they could see where they veer off at.

Jesus opens that First Seal and boom, we are in the Wrath of God. Here's another place they go off on a tangent, they say the Wrath doesn't come until the 6th Seal, when all of the first 6 Seals are opened basically at the same time. The first Four aren't paused to wait on them to come to pass because all four are about the 42 month reign of the Anti-Christ, the 5th is about the deaths of Martyrs during the 42 month reign, so they are opened Boom, boom, boom, boom, Boom.....6th Seal BOOM......God commands a pause to allow the 144,000 {Millions of Jews who repented or ALL ISRAEL} to reach the Petra/Bozrah area of safety. Then the 7th Seal is opened only after they are safe {sealed in the head}. 

Everything is centered around the Middle of the week or 1260 for a reason. No seals have been opened. 

Jesus opens that First Seal and boom, we are in the Wrath of God  WRONG! Do a simple search on "wrath." The first mention of wrath in Revelation is at the 6th seal, NOT THE FIRST. The first seal is the church taking the gospel to the world. Get this wrong - which you continually do - and most of everything else will be wrong. God is not angry with the martyrs - 5th seal. God is not angry when the church begins to fulfill the great commission:  taking the gospel to the world (Seal 1).  Neither is God angry when the devil tries to stop the church - seals 2, 3, and 4.  God does not get angry during the church age! There are still martyrs from the church being added to that group in seal 5: the church age will continue until the rapture that triggers the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal. The church has been waiting on that 6th seal for almost 2000 years now. You can "Boom" all you want, you are simply mistaken. The real BOOM is at the 6th seal when God's wrath begins when the DAY begins. Instead of going by what you have heard, or your own human reasoning, why not just go by what is written: is there any hint of a waiting time in seals 1, 2, 3, or 4?  No, NONE. But notice 5:  

How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This "little season" has been ongoing since John saw the visions.  This is the first hint of a period of waiting. We are STILL WAITING for that complete number:

CJB  Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been.

[OldCoot]

It is a bit myopic to make the assertion that the wrath only starts at the 6th seal. Based on the wording, it very well could be that those on the earth are finally under the realization that what has been going has been the wrath of the Lamb all along.   That would be due to the delusion of the antichrist that they had not recognized it up to that point.   it is a valid alternative way to see the passage of Revelation 6:17, that they are acknowledging all the calamities that have occurred as cumulatively the wrath of the lamb and because of that realization they are calling for the rocks and mountains to hide them because they knew they had backed the wrong horse and about to pay the ultimate price for that.  They know that they are going down.   What is sad, is that there is not a hint in that realization of them being repentant.  Only a deer in the headlight look that they have been the target all along and they are about to finally get run over.

I refer to the period of Noah.  One would have a tough time negating that the wiping out of all land life except Noah and those in the Ark is not the punishing wrath of Yahweh because the word "wrath" does not appear for over 40 chapters later.   The absence of the word "wrath" up to that point in Revelation is not enough supportive evidence that the wrath doesn't occur till seal six.

Yeshua is fully in control of breaking those seals.  None of those events from seal one onward can happen without His hand.  And like various events in the past, the wrath can be executed by proxy and still be the wrath of the Lord.  It is way too narrow of a view to imply that the wrath has not occurred prior to the 6th seal.  

Edited May 24, 2019 by OldCoot