Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus opens that First Seal and boom, we are in the Wrath of God  WRONG! Do a simple search on "wrath." The first mention of wrath in Revelation is at the 6th seal, NOT THE FIRST. The first seal is the church taking the gospel to the world. Get this wrong - which you continually do - and most of everything else will be wrong.

You are wrong brother, all Six are opened within mili-seconds of each other. So the first mention is when God opens all Six instantaneously. You failed to mention that point I see.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God is not angry with the martyrs - 5th seal.

He's angry with those who followed Satan, and thus he shows why His Wrath is justified. These are JUXTAPOSED vs. those that gave in and took the Mark of the Beast and thus the Wrath of God is falling on them. None of the Seals have been opened, the Church are clearly see in chapters 4 and 5, in heaven. 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God is not angry when the church begins to fulfill the great commission:  taking the gospel to the world (Seal 1).  Neither is God angry when the devil tries to stop the church - seals 2, 3, and 4.  God does not get angry during the church age!

The Church Age CLEARLY ENDS with chapter 3. God is always angry at sin, it just runs over or gets filled to overflowing and thus He acts to end Satan's rule on earth.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There are still martyrs from the church being added to that group in seal 5: the church age will continue until the rapture that triggers the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal.

The Rapture happens pre 70th week, not at the Sixth Seal. The Martyrs from Seal 5 are people who do not take the Mark of the Beast, see Rev. 20:4.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The church has been waiting on that 6th seal for almost 2000 years now. You can "Boom" all you want, you are simply mistaken. The real BOOM is at the 6th seal when God's wrath begins when the DAY begins. Instead of going by what you have heard, or your own human reasoning, why not just go by what is written: is there any hint of a waiting time in seals 1, 2, 3, or 4?  No, NONE. But notice 5:  

No one agrees with you do they ? 

[iamlamad]

 

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You are wrong brother, all Six are opened within mili-seconds of each other. So the first mention is when God opens all Six instantaneously. You failed to mention that point I see.

He's angry with those who followed Satan, and thus he shows why His Wrath is justified. These are JUXTAPOSED vs. those that gave in and took the Mark of the Beast and thus the Wrath of God is falling on them. None of the Seals have been opened, the Church are clearly see in chapters 4 and 5, in heaven. 

The Church Age CLEARLY ENDS with chapter 3. God is always angry at sin, it just runs over or gets filled to overflowing and thus He acts to end Satan's rule on earth.

The Rapture happens pre 70th week, not at the Sixth Seal. The Martyrs from Seal 5 are people who do not take the Mark of the Beast, see Rev. 20:4.

No one agrees with you do they ? 

How about we just go by what is written, rather that someone's ideas? 

Rev. 5

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

⁸ And when he had taken the book...

^6:1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

² And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

³ And when he had opened the second seal,

Notice verse 6: Jesus appears in the throne room when a moment before He was not there. He appeared to John as a Lamb having been slain. IN CONTEXT He just ascended. He was not in the throne room in chapter 4. He was not found worthy to take the book and open the seals in chapter 5 at the time of the first search.  This is to tell us TIME and TIMING.  What is the TIME in 5:6?  It is right after Jesus told Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. TIME= 32 AD!

Notice the red print? These are events that happened BETWEEN the first seal and the second. In other words, TIME takes place between each seal. In other words, you are in error with your millisecond theory.

OF COURSE I failed to mention your point, because your point is in error. 

None of the Seals have been opened  That is your theory from human reasoning, NOT scripture. You have totally missed the context of the first seal, the intent of the Author in chapters 4 & 5.  The truth is, the first 5 seals were opened shortly after Jesus ascended, AS WRITTEN. Only human reasoning adds 2000 years when God did not.

the Church are clearly see in chapters 4 and 5, in heaven.   More human reasoning ignoring what the text really tells us. There are STILL numbers being added to the martyrs of the church age, seal #5. The rapture will not come until that number is complete.  You are 2000 years off in your theories of seals 1-5. The church is STILL waiting for judgment - which will begin with the 6th seal. 

The Church Age CLEARLY ENDS with chapter 3  You have a tiny smattering of truth here. The truth is, God finished telling John what to write to the different church and then God changed the subject and called John up to heaven - around 95 AD. Again you are 2000 years off!

The Rapture happens pre 70th week, not at the Sixth Seal.  The 70th week BEGINS at the 7th seal. The 6th seal begins the Day of the Lord and the 7th seal the 70th week. Are you ever going to get these things right?

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

How about we just go by what is written, rather that someone's ideas? 

Rev. 5

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

⁸ And when he had taken the book...

^6:1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

² And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

³ And when he had opened the second seal,

Notice verse 6: Jesus appears in the throne room when a moment before He was not there. He appeared to John as a Lamb having been slain. IN CONTEXT He just ascended. He was not in the throne room in chapter 4. He was not found worthy to take the book and open the seals in chapter 5 at the time of the first search.  This is to tell us TIME and TIMING.  What is the TIME in 5:6?  It is right after Jesus told Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. TIME= 32 AD!

Notice the red print? These are events that happened BETWEEN the first seal and the second. In other words, TIME takes place between each seal. In other words, you are in error with your millisecond theory.

OF COURSE I failed to mention your point, because your point is in error. 

None of the Seals have been opened  That is your theory from human reasoning, NOT scripture. You have totally missed the context of the first seal, the intent of the Author in chapters 4 & 5.  The truth is, the first 5 seals were opened shortly after Jesus ascended, AS WRITTEN. Only human reasoning adds 2000 years when God did not.

the Church are clearly see in chapters 4 and 5, in heaven.   More human reasoning ignoring what the text really tells us. There are STILL numbers being added to the martyrs of the church age, seal #5. The rapture will not come until that number is complete.  You are 2000 years off in your theories of seals 1-5. The church is STILL waiting for judgment - which will begin with the 6th seal. 

The Church Age CLEARLY ENDS with chapter 3  You have a tiny smattering of truth here. The truth is, God finished telling John what to write to the different church and then God changed the subject and called John up to heaven - around 95 AD. Again you are 2000 years off!

The Rapture happens pre 70th week, not at the Sixth Seal.  The 70th week BEGINS at the 7th seal. The 6th seal begins the Day of the Lord and the 7th seal the 70th week. Are you ever going to get these things right?

Again, NO ONE agrees with your ideas do they, they are a very low percentage at best. I didn't respond to you on this because I know it's hopeless brother, I spoke to Old Coot, then you replied to me. I don't keep banging my head on a wall brother. There is nothing further to be said in reality on this.

God Bless.

[iamlamad]

10 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Again, NO ONE agrees with your ideas do they, they are a very low percentage at best. I didn't respond to you on this because I know it's hopeless brother, I spoke to Old Coot, then you replied to me. I don't keep banging my head on a wall brother. There is nothing further to be said in reality on this.

God Bless.

The truth is, God agrees with my ideas for they are exactly what the bible tells us, when studied without preconceptions. Agree with the text of scripture and you will be fine. If you do, you will agree with me. It does not matter how many or how few agree with me, it is how many agree with what is written. Now matter how many people or how many times someone imagines and then writes that the first seal is the Antichrist - they are wrong - and off by 2000 years. The first seal is the CHURCH sent out with the gospel. If you learn this, you will have a good foundation to build on.

[OldCoot]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, God agrees with my ideas for they are exactly what the bible tells us, when studied without preconceptions. Agree with the text of scripture and you will be fine. If you do, you will agree with me. It does not matter how many or how few agree with me, it is how many agree with what is written. Now matter how many people or how many times someone imagines and then writes that the first seal is the Antichrist - they are wrong - and off by 2000 years. The first seal is the CHURCH sent out with the gospel. If you learn this, you will have a good foundation to build on.

That seems to be a pretty arrogant statement..... "God agrees with my ideas".   Did you come up with the end times concepts or did God?  

Paul is quite clear... we see thru a mirror dimly, 1 Corinthians 13:12.  So it seems quite a stretch for anyone to have a total lock on these things, especially to the point of making the bold proclamation that "God agrees with my ideas".

I think you might want to reassess your standing before the Lord before you make accusations about everyone else being wrong because they don't happen to agree with you.  You are not the sole arbiter of what the scripture says.  And I am confident of that assertion based on how you have presented yourself in comparison to the scripture and the Lord.  You have issues to deal with.

Edited May 26, 2019 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, OldCoot said:

That seems to be a pretty arrogant statement..... "God agrees with my ideas".   Did you come up with the end times concepts or did God?  

Paul is quite clear... we see thru a mirror dimly, 1 Corinthians 13:12.  So it seems quite a stretch for anyone to have a total lock on these things, especially to the point of making the bold proclamation that "God agrees with my ideas".

I think you might want to reassess your standing before the Lord before you make accusations about everyone else being wrong because they don't happen to agree with you.  You are not the sole arbiter of what the scripture says.  And I am confident of that assertion based on how you have presented yourself in comparison to the scripture and the Lord.  You have issues to deal with.

It's not arrogant at all, because the Author, The Holy Spirit, taught me. All I have said all this time is only what HE said to me.  Of course He agrees because I just "parrot" what He taught me. I was not smart enough to come up with anything on my own. However, I was smart enough to know I needed HIS HELP. I waited on HIM instead of coming up with human reasoning. The truth is, my theory is HIS TRUTH because He taught me. Therefore it does not matter how many disagree - in the end, when we will all know as we are now known - all will then KNOW that the first seal was written to represent the church sent out with the gospel. A few people know it now - but then all will know.  They will also know that chapters 4 & 5 were written to show the TIMING of the first seals - as their context. 

Another truth: I don't know much about Revelation as far as all there is to know - but what God taught me I know well, because He is a good teacher. For example, on chapter 17, I can only guess or use human reasoning like everyone else, because He has not yet taught me on that chapter. 

Summary: you all can guess that Jesus was there in the throne room in chapter 4, even thought John did not see Him. (It will be a silly guess.)

You can guess John was seeing the real throne room of 95 AD. You can guess John (backed by the Holy Spirit) was just wasting words when he wrote about the first search John watched, to find one worthy to take the book and open the seals, ended in failure.  You can all just guess that Jesus was there all the time and that John just finally saw Him as the Lamb as it had been slain.  The truth is, I don't have to guess because HE taught me.

The truth is, John was seeing a vision of his past - looking into the throne room while Jesus was still on earth. The truth is, when Jesus suddenly appeared as the Lamb having been slain, He had JUST ASCENDED back into heaven after leaving heaven some 32 years before to take on flesh and be born of a Virgin. The truth is, this sets the CONTEXT of the first seal. Anyone can make the first seal be anything (such as the Antichrist) if they are willing to pull it out of its first Century context. That is what so many do.  

Another truth: there is probably much more "in depth" knowledge I still don't have on chapters 4 & 5.  I think no one can know all there is to know about any scripture until we get to heaven - and maybe not even then. 

One thing I hope we all can agree on: there are not 40 "truths" on every scripture, most disagreeing with the others. God had ONE intent in mind when He caused Holy Men to write. 

Therefore, you all can disagree with me "till the cows come home" on chapters 4 & 5, and on the first seal being the church sent out with the gospel, but in the end, you will find out I really did hear from God. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by iamlamad

[OldCoot]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

One thing I hope we all can agree on: there are not 40 "truths" on every scripture, most disagreeing with the others. God had ONE intent in mind when He caused Holy Men to write. 

We can agree on that. The one thing we will have to disagree with is that you have an exclusive on what the text is saying and everyone else is wrong.  Again, Paul is very clear that we see thru a mirror dimly.  We are trapped in mortal, fallen bodies that still have mortal, fallen brains.  There are many folks who have varied opinions based on the same "the Holy Spirit taught me" idea.

This is why even though Peter was an eye witness to the fact of Yeshua on the earth, he stated that there was the more sure word of scripture to rely on.  Essentially, even his experience and direct dealing with Yeshua could not be trusted above scripture. 

And the Torah gave us a requirement that for any matter to be established, or even a matter of doctrine, it requires the testimony of at least two witnesses.  The Bereans in Acts 17 showed us how that requirement is applied and they were commended by the HS for following that procedure.  The same HS who you claim teaches you.   And the net result is that for any matter of doctrine to be established, it must be totally supported in both OT and NT.  Making a case from only the NT does not meet that requirement.  Even if one feels they were personally taught by the Holy Spirit.

And that is what the Holy Spirit teaches and commends in His Word.   That is the standard that every matter of doctrine is to be analyzed by.  You must be able to make a full case for a doctrine of eschatology from the OT just as much as from the NT.  Neither exclusive of the other.   The Revelation is 404 verses with 800+ illusions to passages in the rest of scripture.  You will have to provide ample, equitable evidence from the OT to support your contention or it is to be discarded.  Irregardless of you feelings about being taught by the HS.

Fortunately, it is the "check and balance" system we have been given by the Holy Spirit to help us discern such matters.   It is in keeping with what Paul stated regarding testing the spirits.  

Edited May 26, 2019 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

37 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

We can agree on that. The one thing we will have to disagree with is that you have an exclusive on what the text is saying and everyone else is wrong.  Again, Paul is very clear that we see thru a mirror dimly.  We are trapped in mortal, fallen bodies that still have mortal, fallen brains.  There are many folks who have varied opinions based on the same "the Holy Spirit taught me" idea.

This is why even though Peter was an eye witness to the fact of Yeshua on the earth, he stated that there was the more sure word of scripture to rely on.  Essentially, even his experience and direct dealing with Yeshua could not be trusted above scripture. 

And the Torah gave us a requirement that for any matter to be established, or even a matter of doctrine, it requires the testimony of at least two witnesses.  The Bereans in Acts 17 showed us how that requirement is applied and they were commended by the HS for following that procedure.  The same HS who you claim teaches you.   And the net result is that for any matter of doctrine to be established, it must be totally supported in both OT and NT.  Making a case from only the NT does not meet that requirement.  Even if one feels they were personally taught by the Holy Spirit.

And that is what the Holy Spirit teaches and commends in His Word.   That is the standard that every matter of doctrine is to be analyzed by.  You must be able to make a full case for a doctrine of eschatology from the OT just as much as from the NT.  Neither exclusive of the other.   The Revelation is 404 verses with 800+ illusions to passages in the rest of scripture.  You will have to provide ample, equitable evidence from the OT to support your contention or it is to be discarded.  Irregardless of you feelings about being taught by the HS.

Fortunately, it is the "check and balance" system we have been given by the Holy Spirit to help us discern such matters.   It is in keeping with what Paul stated regarding testing the spirits.  

All I can say is, it is clear that you have never had the experience of Jesus speaking to you about His written word. I agree there is no more sure word that the written Word of God. What you are missing is that Jesus USED His written word when He spoke to me. I did not come up with some off the wall doctrine that used some one's vision! Everything I teach comes STRAIGHT from the written Word. The problem is, preconceived glasses causes people to MISS the Author's intent on scripture.

Case in point: John did not see Jesus in the throne room in chapter 4. it would be ludicrous to imagine He SAW Jesus but did not write of Him. After all, Jesus is the CENTER POINT of the New Testament! He is the cornerstone! So people with preconceptions imagine He was there but John somehow MISSED HIM! How could John miss the cornerstone? The truth of this passage is that JESUS WAS NOT THERE. I think even you must admit that for 32 years Jesus was NOT in the throne room. I will wait and see on this point how you answer. 

[Last Daze]

33 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Case in point: John did not see Jesus in the throne room in chapter 4. it would be ludicrous to imagine He SAW Jesus but did not write of Him. After all, Jesus is the CENTER POINT of the New Testament! He is the cornerstone! So people with preconceptions imagine He was there but John somehow MISSED HIM! How could John miss the cornerstone? The truth of this passage is that JESUS WAS NOT THERE. I think even you must admit that for 32 years Jesus was NOT in the throne room. I will wait and see on this point how you answer. 

The throne room scene in Rev 4&5 paints a "before and after" picture that is used to establish the worthiness of the Lamb to open the seals.  It is a prelude to their opening, a look back at why the Lamb alone is worthy to open them.

• And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.  “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”  Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”  Revelation 5:9-12

Compare what the elders said in Chapter 4 with what they said in Chapter 5.  The throne room scene shows the transition of the Word of God from worthy creator to worthy redeemer.  It is showing the "before and after" of Jesus death and resurrection.  Don't you see Rev 12:1-6 as describing Jesus?  If so, then why can't Rev 4&5 be describing something that happened ~32AD?

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

All I can say is, it is clear that you have never had the experience of Jesus speaking to you about His written word. I agree there is no more sure word that the written Word of God. What you are missing is that Jesus USED His written word when He spoke to me. I did not come up with some off the wall doctrine that used some one's vision! Everything I teach comes STRAIGHT from the written Word. The problem is, preconceived glasses causes people to MISS the Author's intent on scripture.

Case in point: John did not see Jesus in the throne room in chapter 4. it would be ludicrous to imagine He SAW Jesus but did not write of Him. After all, Jesus is the CENTER POINT of the New Testament! He is the cornerstone! So people with preconceptions imagine He was there but John somehow MISSED HIM! How could John miss the cornerstone? The truth of this passage is that JESUS WAS NOT THERE. I think even you must admit that for 32 years Jesus was NOT in the throne room. I will wait and see on this point how you answer. 

You really have to control that inflated view you have of yourself that you seem to think others have not experienced the guidance of the Holy Spirit like you have.  And the compulsion you have to denigrate others who do not hold to your view.   That is not exhibiting the gifts of the Spirit very well.  I am not doubting that you feel you have been led by the Spirit, but Paul makes it very clear that we are to test that against the Word.  And their are specific guidelines laid out in scripture on how to do that.  

And nothing you have stated negates the standard the Holy Spirit has established in scripture to establish doctrine and test doctrine. 

Again, for your position to have any validity, you must provide ample textural support from both OT and NT.  You have not done that, so the evidentiary requirement for your assertion has not been met.  I am not going to trust my take on these things based on how you feel you were led by the Spirit in these matters.    But when you provide that evidentiary support, I will take a look at it.