Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Marilyn C]

26 minutes ago, Spock said:

I like to think when I say “my gut” is telling me......that it really is the HS prompting me....

im being LED by the HS, Marilyn......

got it! ?

Hi Spock,

I thought you`d say that, however it may just be the Pizza you had last night, (lol). The Holy Spirit always brings to remembrance God`s word, and that is not based on our gut. We may get a check when doing wrong, however in regards to looking at God`s word, ONLY God`s word can OK His own word. Thus we need to discuss scripture with scripture, and NOT scripture plus our ideas.

So do we want our `gut` (hoping it is the Holy Spirit, Are we infallible?) or do we want God`s word interpreted with His word as our basis?

regards, Marilyn.

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

So let`s discuss scripture with scripture. This is your first question -

1. .who named Daniels 70th week .....TRIBULATION?  

I agree with you that Daniel` 70^th week and the time of tribulation mentioned by Jesus are not the same, though they run concurrent.

Daniel`s 70<sup>th</sup> week goes for 2,520 days, (1,290 days from mid point) when the Temple will be cleansed. (Dan.9: 14 `to anoint the Most Holy` & Dan. 8: 14 `then the sanctuary shall be cleansed) This concerns God`s dealing with the nation of Israel.

The tribulation on the other hand concerns God`s dealing with the nations, and their kingdoms to become the Lord`s kingdoms. (Rev. 11: 15 `The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.` ) The Tribulation will be a month less than Dan`s 70^th week, 2,510 days.

 (Matt. 24: 23, `And if those days had not been shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect`s sake those days will be shortened.` ) Note Israel is God`s elect also, Isa. 45: 4, `For Jacob my servant`s sake and Israel my elect...`)

So where does Jesus tell us of this tribulation? Let`s go to Matthew 24 where the Lord describes the events leading up to the Abomination of Desolation (middle of Trib.) and the what to do after that.

`Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?` (Matt. 24: 3)

`You will hear of wars....nation against nation....kingdom against kingdom,    famine, pestilences & earthquakes in various places....all these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation (affliction) and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations....false prophets,  lawlessness...and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world....` (Matt. 24: 6 - 14) Note: that is the good news of Christ`s rule (kingdom rule) through Israel to the nations.

Then we read of the Lord pointing out that there will be an Abomination of desolation in the Holy Place, and this is what Daniel spoke of. (Matt. 24: 15,  Dan. 9: 27) The Lord calls the events after the AOD the Great Tribulation -

`For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, not ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

Finally the Lord reveals the sign of His coming and when that is. Jesus says -

`Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.` (Matt. 24: 29)

Thus we read that the Lord Himself names all the difficulties, the troubles and afflictions, as the tribulation of those times from - the beginning of sorrows, through the AOD and on till He returns in power and great glory with His angelic army. (Matt. 24: 30 & 31)

I will leave it there and answer your other questions later, but giving you time to respond to all this.

Regards, Marilyn.

 

Matt 24:

”You will hear of wars....nation against nation....kingdom against kingdom,    famine, pestilences & earthquakes in various places....all these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation (affliction) and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations....false prophets,  lawlessness...and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world....` (Matt. 24: 6 - 14) Note: that is the good news of Christ`s rule (kingdom rule) through Israel to the nations.”

Spock’s musings: This has been going on for 2000 years so you haven’t made you case the tribulation is 7 years. Citing this makes the case that the tribulation is 2000 years long. 

But you did make a strong case for showing the TRIBULATION is 3.5 years. Jesus said so....the last 3.5 years he called GREAT tribulation I assume because the pain and turmoil during that period is much greater than the previous 2000 years period. 

[Spock]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 

In short Paul tells us HIS rapture will come just a moment before God's wrath begins.

 

I agree. We both agree it comes immediately after or during the 6th seal. We disagree as to the timing of the 6th seal. You have it before peace treaty, I have it 3 years after peace treaty. 

We agree on The main points though. Seeing that no trumpets begin  until the seals are over with, we both agree. The only practical difference in our theories is mine says we will see the peace treaty and the rebuilding of the temple and the sacrifices resuming. Yours says we won’t see any of that.  So, when you do see the construction of the temple going up, maybe then you will realize you were wrong and I may be right. 

Stay tuned brother.....

[Marilyn C]

38 minutes ago, Spock said:

Matt 24:

”You will hear of wars....nation against nation....kingdom against kingdom,    famine, pestilences & earthquakes in various places....all these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation (affliction) and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations....false prophets,  lawlessness...and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world....` (Matt. 24: 6 - 14) Note: that is the good news of Christ`s rule (kingdom rule) through Israel to the nations.”

Spock’s musings: This has been going on for 2000 years so you haven’t made you case the tribulation is 7 years. Citing this makes the case that the tribulation is 2000 years long. 

But you did make a strong case for showing the TRIBULATION is 3.5 years. Jesus said so....the last 3.5 years he called GREAT tribulation I assume because the pain and turmoil during that period is much greater than the previous 2000 years period. 

Hi Spock,

So we look at other scriptures on that topic.

`For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night, for when they say, "Peace & Safety!` then sudden destruction comes upon them, as LABOUR PAINS upon a pregnant woman.` )1 Thess. 5: 2 & 3)

`All these are the beginning of sorrows..` (Matt. 24: 8)  `Sorrows,` Gk. word, `odin` meaning a pang, a throe esp. of childbirth.

Thus we see that God has told us that the beginning of the tribulation, is like the sorrows of childbirth, labour pains. Two places in scripture reveal that to us at the timing of the Lord`s soon coming as a thief. 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

29 minutes ago, Spock said:

I agree. We both agree it comes immediately after or during the 6th seal. We disagree as to the timing of the 6th seal. You have it before peace treaty, I have it 3 years after peace treaty. 

We agree on The main points though. Seeing that no trumpets begin  until the seals are over with, we both agree. The only practical difference in our theories is mine says we will see the peace treaty and the rebuilding of the temple and the sacrifices resuming. Yours says we won’t see any of that.  So, when you do see the construction of the temple going up, maybe then you will realize you were wrong and I may be right. 

Stay tuned brother.....

Hi Spock,

We can talk `IDEAS,` our thoughts till the cows come home, BUT to actually do some work and discuss scripture with scripture is the only way to have truth. Let me ask you - Are you thoughts cloudy, not sure of what is what? Then I would suggest you look up other scriptures relevant to the scripture you are discussing and see what God says.

Marilyn.

[Spock]

4 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

We can talk `IDEAS,` our thoughts till the cows come home, BUT to actually do some work and discuss scripture with scripture is the only way to have truth. Let me ask you - Are you thoughts cloudy, not sure of what is what? Then I would suggest you look up other scriptures relevant to the scripture you are discussing and see what God says.

Marilyn.

M.,

i think I can support the timing of the rapture just as well as you can. You know why?  Because the Bible is not black and white about revealing the answer.  God apparently wants us to study, study, and study some more after we pray, pray, and pray some more.  So many topics that come out of end times are very mysterious. I mean do you really know who Mystery Babylon is?  Do you really know the city Rev 18 is referring to? Do you really know who the two witnesses are? No you don’t because the Bible never specifically said. So all we can do is INFER and exchange.....your word....IDEAS! 

But nowhere does the bIble tell us precisely when the rapture will occur. It is not like knowing how you can be saved. The Bible, not surprisingly, makes that very clear and obvious to all.  “.For God so loved the world....”

so, while you believe it will be before Daniels week, you can’t conclusively show me that is where it absolutely will be. You can INFER that answer but nowhere in the Word does it say, “ the rapture will be before Daniels 70th week.” 

So basically, all we all are doing is INFERRING what we read.  So in effect my dear, we all are exchanging our IDEAS on what we believe regarding many of thes end time topics, especially the timing of the rapture. 

[Marilyn C]

34 minutes ago, Spock said:

M.,

i think I can support the timing of the rapture just as well as you can. You know why?  Because the Bible is not black and white about revealing the answer.  God apparently wants us to study, study, and study some more after we pray, pray, and pray some more.  So many topics that come out of end times are very mysterious. I mean do you really know who Mystery Babylon is?  Do you really know the city Rev 18 is referring to? Do you really know who the two witnesses are? No you don’t because the Bible never specifically said. So all we can do is INFER and exchange.....your word....IDEAS! 

But nowhere does the bIble tell us precisely when the rapture will occur. It is not like knowing how you can be saved. The Bible, not surprisingly, makes that very clear and obvious to all.  “.For God so loved the world....”

so, while you believe it will be before Daniels week, you can’t conclusively show me that is where it absolutely will be. You can INFER that answer but nowhere in the Word does it say, “ the rapture will be before Daniels 70th week.” 

So basically, all we all are doing is INFERRING what we read.  So in effect my dear, we all are exchanging our IDEAS on what we believe regarding many of thes end time topics, especially the timing of the rapture. 

Hi Spock,

God`s word is NOT left up to us to guess answers. Yes I can show you from God`s word those things - `the timing of the rapture, Mystery Babylon, the city, the two witnesses, as God`s word does tell us.

No we should not be exchanging ideas, but discussing scripture with scripture. You have asked many questions there. Which one do you want first?

Marilyn.

[Spock]

44 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

God`s word is NOT left up to us to guess answers. Yes I can show you from God`s word those things - `the timing of the rapture, Mystery Babylon, the city, the two witnesses, as God`s word does tell us.

No we should not be exchanging ideas, but discussing scripture with scripture. You have asked many questions there. Which one do you want first?

Marilyn.

You can start by showing me why you believe all those earthquakes in Rev 6,11, and 16 are all the same. 

 

[Marilyn C]

33 minutes ago, Spock said:

You can start by showing me why you believe all those earthquakes in Rev 6,11, and 16 are all the same. 

 

Hi Spock.

Good place to start. Now I actually did write that to you, further back, but it got `lost` amid your discussion with someone. So here they are again, one at a time.

So let`s look at the 3 times a Great Earthquake is mentioned and see if they are the same or at different times.

(Rev. 6: 12 - 17,      11: 11 - 14,     16: 18 - 21)

Rev. 11: 11 - 14

`Now after the 3 ½ days the breath of life from God, entered them, (2 witnesses), and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. And then I heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud and their enemies saw them.

In the same hour there was a Great Earthquake, and a tenth of the city, (Jerusalem) fell. In the earthquake seven thousand men were killed and the rest were afraid and gave glory to God in heaven.

The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.` (Rev. 11: 11 - 14)

Here we see a quick view of the Great Earthquake, as it has to do with Jerusalem. Ch. 11 concerns Jerusalem so that is why the reference to the Great Earthquake is just confined to that. Now we know that that Great earthquake is at the end of the 2 Witnesses` testimony, at the end of the tribulation.

 (The 3 ½ days is included in the 1,260 days of their testimony, as what a great witness to the Lord as the resurrection and life, as they are brought to life and ascend to heaven.)

 

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

Rev. 16: 18 - 21.

`And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Then the 7^th angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

And there were noises and thunder and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

Now the great city (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And great hail from heaven fell upon men, every hailstone about the weight of a talent. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since the plague was exceedingly great.` (Rev.16: 16 - 21)

Here are some more details of this Great earthquake that had not been previously. Notice it is just after the world`s armies gather at Armageddon.