Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

This is the scripture/s that, I believe nails it for us.

`See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.` (Heb.12: 25 & 26)

And that reference is taken from Haggai.

`For thus says the Lord of hosts: “Once more I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations,.. (Hag.2: 6 & 7)

So we see that God will shake the heaven and earth ONCE more.

Joel 3: 12 - 16

`Let the nations be wakened and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; (outside Jerusalem) for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; for the winepress is full, the vats overflow - for their wickedness is great.

Multitude, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

The sun and moon will grow dark, and the stars will diminish their brightness. The Lord also will roar from Zion, (heaven) and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake, but the Lord will be a shelter for His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.`(Joel 3: 12 - 16)

Clearly that is the shaking God is talking about. There in Joel we see when that will happen. God has brought the world`s armies down from Armageddon, to around Jerusalem to the valley of Jehoshaphat. The heavens shake - the sun, moon and stars and the earth also.

 

Rev. 6: 12 - 17

`I looked when he opened the 6^th seal, and behold, there was a Great Earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Rev. 6: 12 - 17)

 

God is describing that He is shaking the heavens and earth here, and thus places this event at the end of the tribulation, just before the Lord returns in power and great glory with His angelic army.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlad,

Again you are throwing out your thoughts and not actually discussing scripture with scripture. You say a scripture then go off into your reasoning of it. That is not `discerning God`s word,` as we are told to do. You are just off in your own imaginings.

Dan. 70th week has an end as Dan. 9: 24 tells us `Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish...to make an end...to make reconciliation...to bring in...to seal up...and to anoint.` All revealing a specific time to finish!

And as I said the Lord is speaking of the whole context, (as the disciples asked Him) from the beginning of sorrows, thr` the AOD and on to when the Lord returns with His angelic army in power and great glory. (Matt. 24: 8, 30 & 31)

Marilyn.

I can assure you, the 70th week in Revelation starts at the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial. The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. All of these can be found in the scripture. How like God to mark the 70th week with sevens. 

When Jesus spoke on the end times, He spoke of church age events (the end is not yet) and then when He got to the 70th week, He jumped right over the beginning and started at the abomination that will divide that week.  Jesus mentioned "the end" in verses 13 & 14.  John, however covers the week in great detail, with the trumpet judgments in the first half and the vials in the second half. 

Here is some of your scripture and comments:

`For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night, for when they say, "Peace & Safety!` then sudden destruction comes upon them, as LABOUR PAINS upon a pregnant woman.` )1 Thess. 5: 2 & 3)

`All these are the beginning of sorrows..` (Matt. 24: ? `Sorrows,` Gk. word, `odin` meaning a pang, a throe esp. of childbirth.

Thus we see that God has told us that the beginning of the tribulation, is like the sorrows of childbirth, labour pains. Two places in scripture reveal that to us at the timing of the Lord`s soon coming as a thief. 

Paul tells us "sudden destruction" is likened to labor pains. The "sudden destruction" Paul is speaking of comes a moment after the dead in Christ rise - when two groups of people get two different results: those living in Christ get raptured, but those NOT living in Christ get left behind with the "sudden destruction." So Paul's "labor pains" begin a moment after the rapture. 

Paul goes on to tell us that this "sudden destruction" is the very wrath of God - His wrath beginning. Now we have a point of reference from Paul to John: In Revelation God's wrath begins at the 6th seal. How amazing, at the 5th seal the martyrs are told they have to WAIT before judgment comes - wait for the very last martyr to be killed as they were killed - as church age martyrs. John tells us God knows the number and judgment will wait until the final martyr. But this again is another hint: the last church age martyr will be OF COURSE at the end of the church. It will end with the rapture. So in short, John is telling us that the martyrs under the altar must wait for the rapture of the church that will end the church age - and THEN judgment will begin. How amazing, judgment begins in the very next seal: seal 6, with the wrath of God beginning. Paul also gives us a very strong hint that the Day of the Lord is TIED to the rapture - that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY.  

So TIME will go from church age to DAY of the Lord at the rapture.  In Revelation then, the rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal events - and the great earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction." In fact, I am convinced that the dead in Christ rising will CAUSE a worldwide earthquake - and it will be that quake at the 6th seal.

All this places the rapture of the church just before the 6th seal.  It is no surprise then that John SAW the raptured church in the next chapter - chapter 7 - as the great crowd, too large to number.

Sorry, but Jesus' "labor pains" are different.  They are events of the church age. You should go back and study Jesus comment: "the end is not yet."  Jesus is not talking about the 70th week or any other "end times" until He mentions "the end" in verse 14. And in verse 15, Jesus is in the 70th week.

You see, Marilyn, before you put two verses together as if they spoke of the same thing, it would be good to examine them and make SURE they are of the same thing. 

The truth then is Jesus started where they WERE in time, and took them through the church age, then through the last half of the week, and then up to Rev. 19 and His coming with His church to the battle of Armageddon.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

This is the scripture/s that, I believe nails it for us.

`See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.` (Heb.12: 25 & 26)

And that reference is taken from Haggai.

`For thus says the Lord of hosts: “Once more I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations,.. (Hag.2: 6 & 7)

So we see that God will shake the heaven and earth ONCE more.

Joel 3: 12 - 16

`Let the nations be wakened and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; (outside Jerusalem) for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; for the winepress is full, the vats overflow - for their wickedness is great.

Multitude, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

The sun and moon will grow dark, and the stars will diminish their brightness. The Lord also will roar from Zion, (heaven) and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake, but the Lord will be a shelter for His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.`(Joel 3: 12 - 16)

Clearly that is the shaking God is talking about. There in Joel we see when that will happen. God has brought the world`s armies down from Armageddon, to around Jerusalem to the valley of Jehoshaphat. The heavens shake - the sun, moon and stars and the earth also.

 

Rev. 6: 12 - 17

`I looked when he opened the 6^th seal, and behold, there was a Great Earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Rev. 6: 12 - 17)

 

 God is describing that He is shaking the heavens and earth here, and thus places this event at the end of the tribulation, just before the Lord returns in power and great glory with His angelic army.

Marilyn, when anyone puts Rev. 6 with Joel 3, I know they lack understanding of John's chronology. Did you not understand, Rev. 6 is before John starts the 70th week and it is not until Rev. 19 that Jesus returns to Armageddon? These two chapters are well OVER 7 YEARS apart in time!  In Rev. 6, God is BEGINNING the Day of the Lord. By Rev. 19, THE DAY is will advanced with the 70th week over with. 

In other words, God is WELL ABLE to shake the earth more than once. 

I will say it again: ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation will be proven wrong.  Your theory is rearranging. 

Marilyn, I must ask WHY? Why attempt to change what is perfect as written just to fit some theory?  Revelation works PERFECTLY as written, without any rearranging. Why not just form your theories from Revelation AS WRITTEN? 

Finally, there is NO COMING at the 6th seal. The DAY will come, but Jesus will have already come to the air to call up His saints BEFORE the 6th seal - and went back to heaven. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Rev. 16: 18 - 21.

`And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Then the 7^th angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

And there were noises and thunder and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

Now the great city (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And great hail from heaven fell upon men, every hailstone about the weight of a talent. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since the plague was exceedingly great.` (Rev.16: 16 - 21)

Here are some more details of this Great earthquake that had not been previously. Notice it is just after the world`s armies gather at Armageddon.

What is amazing to me is that people SURVIVE this earthquake! But many do. Some of the armies are still alive when Jesus descends as shown in chapter 19. 

Question: How much time between the 7th vial and Jesus' return in chapter 19? 

Anybody?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock.

Good place to start. Now I actually did write that to you, further back, but it got `lost` amid your discussion with someone. So here they are again, one at a time.

So let`s look at the 3 times a Great Earthquake is mentioned and see if they are the same or at different times.

(Rev. 6: 12 - 17,      11: 11 - 14,     16: 18 - 21)

Rev. 11: 11 - 14

`Now after the 3 ½ days the breath of life from God, entered them, (2 witnesses), and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. And then I heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud and their enemies saw them.

In the same hour there was a Great Earthquake, and a tenth of the city, (Jerusalem) fell. In the earthquake seven thousand men were killed and the rest were afraid and gave glory to God in heaven.

The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.` (Rev. 11: 11 - 14)

Here we see a quick view of the Great Earthquake, as it has to do with Jerusalem. Ch. 11 concerns Jerusalem so that is why the reference to the Great Earthquake is just confined to that. Now we know that that Great earthquake is at the end of the 2 Witnesses` testimony, at the end of the tribulation.

 (The 3 ½ days is included in the 1,260 days of their testimony, as what a great witness to the Lord as the resurrection and life, as they are brought to life and ascend to heaven.)

Congratulations, Marilyn! You nailed it! The two witnesses BEGIN their testimony just 3.5 days before the midpoint, testify for 1260 days and die. They will die just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will lay dead those 3.5 days and be raised (with all the rest of the Old Testament saints) at the 7th vial. And that earthqake at their resurrection is the very same earthquake at the 7th vial, for it is at the same time.

This is NOT the same earthquake as at the 6th seal. 

[Marilyn C]

39 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 

Hi iamlamad,

There you go again, all about what you think. I do not see any scriptures relating to what I posted.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

33 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Marilyn, when anyone puts Rev. 6 with Joel 3, I know they lack understanding of John's chronology. Did you not understand, Rev. 6 is before John starts the 70th week and it is not until Rev. 19 that Jesus returns to Armageddon? These two chapters are well OVER 7 YEARS apart in time!  In Rev. 6, God is BEGINNING the Day of the Lord. By Rev. 19, THE DAY is will advanced with the 70th week over with. 

In other words, God is WELL ABLE to shake the earth more than once. 

I will say it again: ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation will be proven wrong.  Your theory is rearranging. 

Marilyn, I must ask WHY? Why attempt to change what is perfect as written just to fit some theory?  Revelation works PERFECTLY as written, without any rearranging. Why not just form your theories from Revelation AS WRITTEN? 

Finally, there is NO COMING at the 6th seal. The DAY will come, but Jesus will have already come to the air to call up His saints BEFORE the 6th seal - and went back to heaven. 

Again iamlamad,

All your thoughts and none of God`s words.

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

M.,

i think I can support the timing of the rapture just as well as you can. You know why?  Because the Bible is not black and white about revealing the answer.  God apparently wants us to study, study, and study some more after we pray, pray, and pray some more.  So many topics that come out of end times are very mysterious. I mean do you really know who Mystery Babylon is?  Do you really know the city Rev 18 is referring to? Do you really know who the two witnesses are? No you don’t because the Bible never specifically said. So all we can do is INFER and exchange.....your word....IDEAS! 

But nowhere does the bIble tell us precisely when the rapture will occur. It is not like knowing how you can be saved. The Bible, not surprisingly, makes that very clear and obvious to all.  “.For God so loved the world....”

so, while you believe it will be before Daniels week, you can’t conclusively show me that is where it absolutely will be. You can INFER that answer but nowhere in the Word does it say, “ the rapture will be before Daniels 70th week.” 

So basically, all we all are doing is INFERRING what we read.  So in effect my dear, we all are exchanging our IDEAS on what we believe regarding many of thes end time topics, especially the timing of the rapture. 

Good post Spock: it is truth, you, I and Marilyn all read one scripture and we get three ideas.  

I disagree with you in one part: I think Paul DOES tell us where the rapture will come in Revelation's narrative, and John confirms it with the great crowd. 

Of course, if someone feels free to rearrange Revelation, they can be sure of nothing in the way of timing

[Marilyn C]

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Congratulations, Marilyn! You nailed it! The two witnesses BEGIN their testimony just 3.5 days before the midpoint, testify for 1260 days and die. They will die just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will lay dead those 3.5 days and be raised (with all the rest of the Old Testament saints) at the 7th vial. And that earthqake at their resurrection is the very same earthquake at the 7th vial, for it is at the same time.

This is NOT the same earthquake as at the 6th seal. 

And again, iamlamad,

No scriptures, so what is there to discuss, your thoughts? No, for it is ONLY what God says ABOUT HIS WORD that is important, and truth. The rest of our words will all fall to the ground, like autumn leaves.

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Again iamlamad,

All your thoughts and none of God`s words.

Marilyn.

If You disagree that Rev. 6 is not Joel 3, then show us supporting scripture. Or you could attempt to support the 6th seal as being after the "trib"  - for that would be the same thing. You know as well as anyone here that the 6th seal is in chapter 6 of Revelation, and Jesus return is not until chapter 19. By the way, all this IS His word. 

Try PROVING Rev. 6 can be the same as Rev. 19!

Edited March 20, 2019 by iamlamad