Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Spock]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Well Spock, no offense taken at all. I told you that I read about half the posts so I was well aware that you were not interested in talking about a post trib rapture. 

To clear things up I believe in a pretribulation rapture.  You say you are interested in people that can show your timeline is rubbish. I’d like a shot at that. I wouldn’t even try, except you go by the name of Spock. That means facts and logic, proof and truth. 

So Mr Spock can you provide any scriptural proof that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is when Jesus comes to set up His kingdom on earth. If you can I would certainly like to see it.    

 

Phew, glad you are not here to convince me to accept post tribulation rapture. Forgive me for being presumptuous my brother. 

Im not sure why this is not sufficient for you....it is so on point and very clear in its words and it’s interpretation. What hinders you from accepting this passage as a second coming passage?

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days: 

‘The sun will be darkened, 

and the moon will not give its light; 

the stars will fall from the sky, 

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’b

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming (JESUS COMING TO SET UP HIS KINGDOM IS RIGHT HERE) on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.c 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Spock

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Phew, glad you are not here to convince me to accept post tribulation rapture. Forgive me for being presumptuous my brother. 

Im not sure why this is not sufficient for you....it is so on point and very clear in its words and it’s interpretation. What hinders you from accepting this passage as a second coming passage?

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days: 

‘The sun will be darkened, 

and the moon will not give its light; 

the stars will fall from the sky, 

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’b

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming (JESUS COMING TO SET UP HIS KINGDOM IS RIGHT HERE) on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.c 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I see those passages as the gathering that Paul spoke of in Thessalonians right before the wrath of God begins.  There are several proofs we can see. 1st the passage says that the angels are sent to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Second the timeline of the sun, moon and stars can be seen in Rev 6. I believe all the tribes are mouning because they see that Jesus is real and they realize that the wrath of God is about to begin.

[Spock]

13 minutes ago, The Light said:

I see those passages as the gathering that Paul spoke of in Thessalonians right before the wrath of God begins.  There are several proofs we can see. 1st the passage says that the angels are sent to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Second the timeline of the sun, moon and stars can be seen in Rev 6. I believe all the tribes are mouning because they see that Jesus is real and they realize that the wrath of God is about to begin.

Sorry Light but you got some facts wrong.... read this slowly again.....this is the PRIMARY PASSAGE referencing the rapture.....

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Show me where it says ANGELS ARE DOING ANY GATHERING like you saw them doing in the Matt 24 passage?  I will wait for your answer before continuing. OH, and don’t you fill in the blanks with your speculation. That is not inspired by God......

 

 

[The Light]

9 minutes ago, Spock said:

Sorry Light but you got some facts wrong.... read this slowly again.....this is the PRIMARY PASSAGE referencing the rapture.....

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Show me where it says ANGELS ARE DOING ANY GATHERING like you saw them doing in the Matt 24 passage?  I will wait for your answer before continuing. OH, and don’t you fill in the blanks with your speculation. That is not inspired by God......

 

 

Remember these verses: Immediately after the tribulation of those days etc. Then they will see the coming of the son of man etc angels gather etc.

This says immediately after the tribulation of those days.  I told you I believe that the church will be raptured pre trib. When we go to Rev 4 and 5 we can clearly see that the church has come out of all nations and tribes etc. I would post the verses but I am on my phone.

In summary these are two separate events. The scriptures you posted regard the pre trib rapture when the Lord himself comes. In Matthew 24 He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth right before the wrath of God begins in Rev 6

[Spock]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Remember these verses: Immediately after the tribulation of those days etc. Then they will see the coming of the son of man etc angels gather etc.

This says immediately after the tribulation of those days.  I told you I believe that the church will be raptured pre trib. When we go to Rev 4 and 5 we can clearly see that the church has come out of all nations and tribes etc. I would post the verses but I am on my phone.

In summary these are two separate events. The scriptures you posted regard the pre trib rapture when the Lord himself comes. In Matthew 24 He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth right before the wrath of God begins in Rev 6

You asked me to show you where in Matt 24 it talks about the second coming of Christ, where he comes to kick butt at Armageddon and then set up his Millennial Kingdom.

Matthew 24:29-31 IS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE.  Angels are doing the gathering there. Do you see angels doing any gathering in the 1 Thess 4 passage...THE REAL RAPTURE PASSAFE.

[The Light]

46 minutes ago, Spock said:

You asked me to show you where in Matt 24 it talks about the second coming of Christ, where he comes to kick butt at Armageddon and then set up his Millennial Kingdom.

Matthew 24:29-31 IS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE.  Angels are doing the gathering there. Do you see angels doing any gathering in the 1 Thess 4 passage...THE REAL RAPTURE PASSAFE.

As we can see in Rev 4 and 5 the church is in heaven. They have come out of every nation and tribe.

Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

Then we see in Matt 24 and Luke 21 another gathering. There is no butt kicking going on. The wrath of God is getting ready to BEGIN as clearly shown in Rev 6. Armageddon does not happen until the end of the wrath of God.  And yet there are people told to look up their redemption draws nigh.

Luke 21

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, Spock said:

Great. 

This should be a formidable test to see if my proposed timeline cuts it. 

Hi Spock,

I am very pleased you would like to hear what I believe and was taught regarding the Lord coming for His Body, and the believers being caught up to meet Him. I need to do some background posts first to see if we understand together.

Now you know the story of the 4 blind men feeling different parts of an elephant. One felt the leg, another, the tail, another, the ears & finally the trunk. All the men were describing what they felt but all thought the others were wrong. So it can be when we discuss end times, for each are describing a part of God`s purpose. So what the blind men needed was to `see` the whole elephant. And that is what we need first, to see the big picture of what God is doing.

So step by step I`ll post comments & diagrams of the big picture, till we get to our part, and see where we fit in, as it were.

So let`s look at the `elephant,` - God and His purposes.  

[Marilyn C]

Hi  Spock,

 

We know that the Godhead is - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

We know that they are equal, in unity, & of one mind. Then when they operate we see that at the source, the Godhead there is the provision, then the Father initiates, the Son administers and the Holy Spirit is the direct agency.

 

Divine  Procession.

 

          Godhead  - At the source there is the provision by the whole Godhead,

 

          Father - with the initial movement of the Father;

 

          Son - the administration of the Son;

 

Holy Spirit - and the direct agency of the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

 

This hierarchy of operation is important for we read of the Father`s purpose -

 

`God.... purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, which are in heaven and which are on earth – in Him,...` (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

 

And God tells us what these `all things` are.

 

`For by Him, (Christ) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)

When God created the heavens and the earth, He established different realms with positions of authority – the third heaven, the Universe & the earth. These are all within God`s great kingdom rule and were established by the Lord Jesus Christ,

God is not the author of confusion; everything He does is ordered and controlled. The divine pattern of the heavenlies will survive time, into eternity. It will not be changed, only those which exercise authority in each realm.

There is a descending order of authority instituted – heaven and earth, involving thrones, dominions, principalities and powers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

The third heaven is the first realm in God`s great kingdom to be populated. God created the angelic beings and they resided in the third heaven. The most beautiful and powerful angel was Lucifer. He was given authority as a king & a Priest over a whole order of angels.  He had a very special position near God. He was the anointed cherub, the son of the morning that led the worship in heaven.

The Old Testament prophets spoke of this time,  (Isaiah 14 & Ezekiel 28) These descriptions far transcend any earthly king and by the law of double reference reveal the original power and beauty of this greatest angel ever created by God. However Lucifer aspired to ascend into the highest heaven, `the sides of the north,` (hidden quarters), the abode of the eternal God.

 

So by divine decree, because of his pride, Lucifer was cast out of the third heaven, being found unworthy to rule there.  

 

`By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God;....` (Ez. 28: 16)

 

Lucifer then usurped the area of Principalities and Powers in the universal realm and operates and rules there as the Prince of the Power of the air.

 

` ...the prince of the power of the air,....(Eph. 2: 2)

`...principalities,....powers....rulers of darkness....spiritual wickedness in high places.` (Eph. 6: 12)