Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

The throne room scene in Rev 4&5 paints a "before and after" picture that is used to establish the worthiness of the Lamb to open the seals.  It is a prelude to their opening, a look back at why the Lamb alone is worthy to open them.

• And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.  “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”  Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”  Revelation 5:9-12

Compare what the elders said in Chapter 4 with what they said in Chapter 5.  The throne room scene shows the transition of the Word of God from worthy creator to worthy redeemer.  It is showing the "before and after" of Jesus death and resurrection.  Don't you see Rev 12:1-6 as describing Jesus?  If so, then why can't Rev 4&5 be describing something that happened ~32AD?

The key to the passage there is in Revelation 5:10, "made them" (highlighted above) as opposed to " made us" that occurs in many translations.  If the word is "us", then it wold support the contention that the Elders are the redeemed who have been removed.  A pre-trib scenario.  That would negate a 32AD scenario.

The Greek there is "ego".  That is a personal possessive.  The equivalent would be "I", "Me", and the collective "us", not a deflective "them", "they", etc.  Amazing how a word can really paint a different picture.

But again, one cannot make a doctrine on one verse, one chapter, one book, or even one Testament.  It has to be supported from both OT and NT equally to be valid.    I am still waiting for the supporting texts from the OT that equally supports a Preterist view or even  a Post Trib view.

Edited May 26, 2019 by OldCoot

[Revelation Man]

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It's not arrogant at all, because the Author, The Holy Spirit, taught me. All I have said all this time is only what HE said to me.  Of course He agrees because I just "parrot" what He taught me. I was not smart enough to come up with anything on my own. However, I was smart enough to know I needed HIS HELP. I waited on HIM instead of coming up with human reasoning. The truth is, my theory is HIS TRUTH because He taught me. Therefore it does not matter how many disagree - in the end, when we will all know as we are now known - all will then KNOW that the first seal was written to represent the church sent out with the gospel. A few people know it now - but then all will know.  They will also know that chapters 4 & 5 were written to show the TIMING of the first seals - as their context. 

Another truth: I don't know much about Revelation as far as all there is to know - but what God taught me I know well, because He is a good teacher. For example, on chapter 17, I can only guess or use human reasoning like everyone else, because He has not yet taught me on that chapter. 

Summary: you all can guess that Jesus was there in the throne room in chapter 4, even thought John did not see Him. (It will be a silly guess.)

You can guess John was seeing the real throne room of 95 AD. You can guess John (backed by the Holy Spirit) was just wasting words when he wrote about the first search John watched, to find one worthy to take the book and open the seals, ended in failure.  You can all just guess that Jesus was there all the time and that John just finally saw Him as the Lamb as it had been slain.  The truth is, I don't have to guess because HE taught me.

The truth is, John was seeing a vision of his past - looking into the throne room while Jesus was still on earth. The truth is, when Jesus suddenly appeared as the Lamb having been slain, He had JUST ASCENDED back into heaven after leaving heaven some 32 years before to take on flesh and be born of a Virgin. The truth is, this sets the CONTEXT of the first seal. Anyone can make the first seal be anything (such as the Antichrist) if they are willing to pull it out of its first Century context. That is what so many do.  

Another truth: there is probably much more "in depth" knowledge I still don't have on chapters 4 & 5.  I think no one can know all there is to know about any scripture until we get to heaven - and maybe not even then. 

One thing I hope we all can agree on: there are not 40 "truths" on every scripture, most disagreeing with the others. God had ONE intent in mind when He caused Holy Men to write. 

Therefore, you all can disagree with me "till the cows come home" on chapters 4 & 5, and on the first seal being the church sent out with the gospel, but in the end, you will find out I really did hear from God. 

Well God taught me also, but I think I had to adjust to His way of thinking, I spent 25 years in error in some of my Prophetic Understandings all because I didn't seek the answers directly from the Lord God {via Prophecy not Salvation doctrine} like I did with the Gospels etc. etc. We are unsure and we lean on men as young Christians in Prophecy and much of it sticks with us via "Men's Traditions. The problem is, Satan can appear as an Angel of light. Everything MUST MESH with the Holy Word of God. So my understanding of the book of Revelation indeed now meshes. 

Revelation Decoded: Explained in "simple form".

Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter: { Jesus Glorified, the Seven Churches and the coming Tribulation Events }

In verse one we are told that God gave Jesus these things to show unto his servants, "things which must SHORTLY come to pass" !! This verse confuses many right off the bat, they say all Revelation must therefore be in the past, and all the Seals have been opened. Have no fear, they just needed to study more, they are reading a bad translation. The word "SHORTLY" has two Greek words behind it in Strong's Concordance, the words are {EN} and {TACHOS}, the word EN means a fixed time and place [in the future]. The word TACHOS means speedily or in haste {it is where we get the English word tachometer from}. So in essence Jesus is saying at a predetermined point in time {which only the Father knows} I will come in haste, or speedily, when I return at the Second Coming.

John saw Jesus in all his Glory, and described it as such, thus Jesus was the things which he had seen. The things which are of course were the Seven Churches. The things that will be hereafter are of course the coming Tribulation after the Rapture of the Church, in chapters 4-22.

Rev. 1 the Glorious Christ Revealed for all to see.

Rev. 2 and 3, the Seven Churches are given things they are doing properly, and also told about things they need to work on, they are a "Type" of the Church Age" in general.

Rev. 4 and 5 is the Raptured Church in Heaven, we see the Elders of the Church in Heaven wearing White. The 24 Elders are the Church. The reasons are many, I will list them below:

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4.

* A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

* A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

* A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !! Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

So the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened, thus the Rapture happens before the Seals are opened !! John saw them in Rev. chapters 4 and 5, the Elders are not in Heaven having marred the Lamb without the Church also being there, there is just ONE MARRIAGE !! 

So the Church is shown in heaven, raptured before the Seals have been broken in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9 where they sing a song of the Redeemed. Angels don't need to be redeemed !!

In Rev. 6 we see the Seals {Wrath of the Lamb} being opened. The Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth Conquering. He takes Peace from the earth {Dan. 8:25, 9:27, 11:40-43} as the Red horse, his wars bring famine as the Black horse and of course he brings death and the grave via war and sickness thus the Pale Green horse. These deaths are of course many, but not the Raptured Church, we are in Heaven, these are the deaths of all that refuse to worship this man as God, the Muslims are the vast majority of these deaths {Rev.17:16} as per the Harlot being judged. But it comes to pass right off the bat, in Rev. 6, the Beast must subvert all other religions to start with, thus he will chase Israel into the wilderness, he will Martyr the Gentiles who have accepted Christ {5th Seal}, Rev. 12:17, and he will destroy all religions and appoint a BEAST over Religion, the False Prophet. The 2nd Beast of Rev. 13 who comes out of the land/earth {Israel}.

The First Beast of course is a Gentile Geo-political leader from Europe, born in Greece. The Two-witnesses of Rev. 11 are already preaching repentance by the time the Beast Conquers Jerusalem/Mediterranean Sea Region, that is why some of the Jews {1/3} fled Judea just before the Beast goes forth Conquering. The 6th Seal is opened and mankind finally understand they are in the Lamb's Wrath {God's Wrath via the Lamb who opens the Seals}. These first Four Seals hit very fast, the Jews are fleeing Judea, then we get the 6th Seal that announces supernaturally, you are in God's Wrath, so mankind finally understand that the Anti-Christ represents the Four Horseman and that they have been in God's Wrath since the Anti-Christ or Little Horn went forth Conquering thereby becoming THE BEAST !!

In Rev. 7 Just before Jesus opens the 7th Seal in Rev. 8, which will bring destruction to Babylon {this whole world} he tells his Angels to hold off until Israel {144,000} are protected in the Petra/Bozrah Mountain area, the 144,000 is a Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL, not every Jew. Israel as a Nation is preserved/saved, but only 1/3 of the Jews are saved/repent, 2/3 perish. We then are shown the Church in Heaven one last time in Rev. 7:9-17, they are said to have come out of the Great Tribulation, and everyone demands this to mean the Greatest Ever Troubles for Jacob, but it really means the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period, which is GREATER than the 7 year period of Jacob's troubles as in 2000>7. Jesus told us we were to have continual tribulation, so the 2000 some odd year Church Age was no doubt the Greatest Period of troubles, and that is what John was referring to, the Martyrs under the Altar are specifically told they must wait until their fellow brothers die in just the like manner as they did, so they must wait until the Beasts 42 month rule is over before they can rule with Christ {see Rev. 20:4} for 1000 years on earth.

In Rev. 8, after the Jews are protected in the Petra region, God unleashes His fury on Babylon {see Rev. 18} which God sees as Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth, Satan is cast down to earth, Apollyon is released via the coming 1st Woe. The Two-witnesses are praying down these plagues no doubt, this is why the world hates them. All the grasses in all the world are burned up, as are a 1/3 of all the trees in the whole world, that is a whole lotta smoke in the air !! A 1/3 part of the Seas are turned to blood, 1/3 of the Sea Creatures die, 1/3 of the ships are Destroyed, and 1/3 of all the drinking waters are poisoned. A 1/3 part of the sun, moon and stars give not their light, one has to think all the smoke is blocking out the sun, moon and stars. Then an Angel announces there are THREE WOES LEFT, and the last three Trumpets that are yet to sound will indeed be the coming Three Woes.

In Rev. 9 we see Woe #1 and Woe #2. Apollyon and his hordes of Demons are released from the bottomless pit in Woe #1, thus the world {Babylon} is become a Habitation of Devils {see Rev. 18}. They maim mankind but can not kill them. In Woe #2 we see an Angelic Army of God {200 Million} which brings plagues against Mankind where 1.5 Billion people are killed. We see the 2nd Woe repeated in Rev. 11, but it's the same Woe, Rev. 11 is not a REAL TIME EVENT, it's a Parenthetical Citation or a set-a-side chapter which speaks about other things that happened in the Judgement chapters besides the Seal, Trumpet or Vial Judgment's per se.

Rev. 10 is a flash forward to the end.

Rev. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations, they are not a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation.

Rev. 11 is about the Two-witnesses ministry, it seems to start 75 days before the Beast comes to power and they seem to die about 75 days before the Beast dies. They preach repentance to the Jews for 1260 days. This happens from 75 days before the Beast comes to power until 75 days before the Beast is killed/destroyed by Jesus at the 7th Vial. When the 7th Trumpet sounds in Rev. chapter 11, the Two-witnesses are already dead, this means they actually put forth this prayer unto God before they died. The 7th Trumpet is nothing more than all 7 Vials Combined. This is why it says Babylon is Fallen. The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe !!

Rev. 12 and 13 both start of course in Rev. ch. 6 , in the Middle of the Week. One shows the Beast chasing Israel into the Wilderness and the other shows the Beast ruling for 42 months.

Rev. 14 is all about three specific Harvests, the Church is Raptured in verse 14, the Wheat {144,000} grows with the Wicked Tares until the end !! Jesus gathers the Wheat into his barn, whilst bundling the Wicked Tares together to be burned at a later date. {Second Death}. This chapter thus covers the full 7 years in total.

Rev. 15&16 are about the last 7 Vials, but they come forth from the Last/7th Trumpet, and thus the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe !! Jesus takes over in Rev. 16:19 and God sees the Nations he defeats as Babylon, and Vial #6 tells us who these Nations are, the Kings of the East, and the Kings of the WHOLE WORLD, so Babylon = the Whole World in God's eyes. This is the End of Babylon, or Satan's Rule on earth, Jesus takes over here, Babylon has fallen the Angel says IT IS DONE !! This of course ends the world as we know it. Thus Rev. 17 and 18 have to be about Events that have already come to pass, just as I have already asserted.

Rev. 17 is the Judgment of the Harlot. All False Religion is Judged here. In the end she is killed off by the Kings in League with the Beast starting at the midway point, in Rev. 6, the Beast demands to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD, thus the Kings kill off Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and all religions. The Harlot {False Religions} had been co-mingled with Babylon {False/Beast Governments} since the beginning, she is the mother of harlots, she is an abomination, and she was a Mystery until God explained who she was. She was co-mingled with Babylon !!

Rev. 18 is the other side of the two sided coin. The Harlot RIDES the Beast !! Babylon is the Whole World under the rule of Satan, Babel means confusion, all men that follow Satan by definition are CONFUSED no doubt. So all those that fight for Satan against God at Armageddon are seen as Babylon the Great !! And thus God gives them the winepress of His Wrath {Rev. 16:19}. God calls Israel to come out of Babylon in verse 4, lest she {Israel} receives of her {Babylon/Worlds} Plagues. Babylon or the Worlds Merchants are dismayed that her COMMERCE is destroyed, but of course that is what the Plagues of God were designed to do !! The Trees, Seas and the Earth are all hit with fires and plagues, the 2nd Woe kills 1.5 Billion people, the Anti-Christ/Beast kills 2 Billion people. Of course this hurts Babylons {WHOLE WORLDS} economy. In ONE HOUR judgment comes on Babylon, well the Kings rule with the Beast for ONE HOUR also {42 Months just as Rev. 17:12 says, the Kings have power with the Beast for ONE HOUR which = 42 Months}. Rev. 18 is the Whole World getting hit with God's Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, it starts in Rev. 6, and runs through Rev. 16, whereas the Harlot is killed off in Rev. ch. 6 to begin with, then she is replaced by the False Prophet Religious Beast.

Rev. 19 is the Church going to Heaven, readying herself to become Christs Bride, Marrying the Lamb, then returning to earth with Jesus on White horses {as Conquerors}, where we have our Marriage Supper {Armageddon}. This chapter also lasts the full 7 years, thus it is also not a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation.

Rev. 20, is the Judgment Seat, Rev. 21 and 22 are the everafter and the New Jerusalem.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Well God taught me also, but I think I had to adjust to His way of thinking, I spent 25 years in error in some of my Prophetic Understandings all because I didn't seek the answers directly from the Lord God {via Prophecy not Salvation doctrine} like I did with the Gospels etc. etc. We are unsure and we lean on men as young Christians in Prophecy and much of it sticks with us via "Men's Traditions. The problem is, Satan can appear as an Angel of light. Everything MUST MESH with the Holy Word of God. So my understanding of the book of Revelation indeed now meshes. 

Revelation Decoded: Explained in "simple form".

Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter: { Jesus Glorified, the Seven Churches and the coming Tribulation Events }

In verse one we are told that God gave Jesus these things to show unto his servants, "things which must SHORTLY come to pass" !! This verse confuses many right off the bat, they say all Revelation must therefore be in the past, and all the Seals have been opened. Have no fear, they just needed to study more, they are reading a bad translation. The word "SHORTLY" has two Greek words behind it in Strong's Concordance, the words are {EN} and {TACHOS}, the word EN means a fixed time and place [in the future]. The word TACHOS means speedily or in haste {it is where we get the English word tachometer from}. So in essence Jesus is saying at a predetermined point in time {which only the Father knows} I will come in haste, or speedily, when I return at the Second Coming.

John saw Jesus in all his Glory, and described it as such, thus Jesus was the things which he had seen. The things which are of course were the Seven Churches. The things that will be hereafter are of course the coming Tribulation after the Rapture of the Church, in chapters 4-22.

Rev. 1 the Glorious Christ Revealed for all to see.

Rev. 2 and 3, the Seven Churches are given things they are doing properly, and also told about things they need to work on, they are a "Type" of the Church Age" in general.

Rev. 4 and 5 is the Raptured Church in Heaven, we see the Elders of the Church in Heaven wearing White. The 24 Elders are the Church. The reasons are many, I will list them below:

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4.

* A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

* A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

* A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !! Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

So the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened, thus the Rapture happens before the Seals are opened !! John saw them in Rev. chapters 4 and 5, the Elders are not in Heaven having marred the Lamb without the Church also being there, there is just ONE MARRIAGE !! 

So the Church is shown in heaven, raptured before the Seals have been broken in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9 where they sing a song of the Redeemed. Angels don't need to be redeemed !!

In Rev. 6 we see the Seals {Wrath of the Lamb} being opened. The Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth Conquering. He takes Peace from the earth {Dan. 8:25, 9:27, 11:40-43} as the Red horse, his wars bring famine as the Black horse and of course he brings death and the grave via war and sickness thus the Pale Green horse. These deaths are of course many, but not the Raptured Church, we are in Heaven, these are the deaths of all that refuse to worship this man as God, the Muslims are the vast majority of these deaths {Rev.17:16} as per the Harlot being judged. But it comes to pass right off the bat, in Rev. 6, the Beast must subvert all other religions to start with, thus he will chase Israel into the wilderness, he will Martyr the Gentiles who have accepted Christ {5th Seal}, Rev. 12:17, and he will destroy all religions and appoint a BEAST over Religion, the False Prophet. The 2nd Beast of Rev. 13 who comes out of the land/earth {Israel}.

The First Beast of course is a Gentile Geo-political leader from Europe, born in Greece. The Two-witnesses of Rev. 11 are already preaching repentance by the time the Beast Conquers Jerusalem/Mediterranean Sea Region, that is why some of the Jews {1/3} fled Judea just before the Beast goes forth Conquering. The 6th Seal is opened and mankind finally understand they are in the Lamb's Wrath {God's Wrath via the Lamb who opens the Seals}. These first Four Seals hit very fast, the Jews are fleeing Judea, then we get the 6th Seal that announces supernaturally, you are in God's Wrath, so mankind finally understand that the Anti-Christ represents the Four Horseman and that they have been in God's Wrath since the Anti-Christ or Little Horn went forth Conquering thereby becoming THE BEAST !!

In Rev. 7 Just before Jesus opens the 7th Seal in Rev. 8, which will bring destruction to Babylon {this whole world} he tells his Angels to hold off until Israel {144,000} are protected in the Petra/Bozrah Mountain area, the 144,000 is a Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL, not every Jew. Israel as a Nation is preserved/saved, but only 1/3 of the Jews are saved/repent, 2/3 perish. We then are shown the Church in Heaven one last time in Rev. 7:9-17, they are said to have come out of the Great Tribulation, and everyone demands this to mean the Greatest Ever Troubles for Jacob, but it really means the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period, which is GREATER than the 7 year period of Jacob's troubles as in 2000>7. Jesus told us we were to have continual tribulation, so the 2000 some odd year Church Age was no doubt the Greatest Period of troubles, and that is what John was referring to, the Martyrs under the Altar are specifically told they must wait until their fellow brothers die in just the like manner as they did, so they must wait until the Beasts 42 month rule is over before they can rule with Christ {see Rev. 20:4} for 1000 years on earth.

In Rev. 8, after the Jews are protected in the Petra region, God unleashes His fury on Babylon {see Rev. 18} which God sees as Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth, Satan is cast down to earth, Apollyon is released via the coming 1st Woe. The Two-witnesses are praying down these plagues no doubt, this is why the world hates them. All the grasses in all the world are burned up, as are a 1/3 of all the trees in the whole world, that is a whole lotta smoke in the air !! A 1/3 part of the Seas are turned to blood, 1/3 of the Sea Creatures die, 1/3 of the ships are Destroyed, and 1/3 of all the drinking waters are poisoned. A 1/3 part of the sun, moon and stars give not their light, one has to think all the smoke is blocking out the sun, moon and stars. Then an Angel announces there are THREE WOES LEFT, and the last three Trumpets that are yet to sound will indeed be the coming Three Woes.

In Rev. 9 we see Woe #1 and Woe #2. Apollyon and his hordes of Demons are released from the bottomless pit in Woe #1, thus the world {Babylon} is become a Habitation of Devils {see Rev. 18}. They maim mankind but can not kill them. In Woe #2 we see an Angelic Army of God {200 Million} which brings plagues against Mankind where 1.5 Billion people are killed. We see the 2nd Woe repeated in Rev. 11, but it's the same Woe, Rev. 11 is not a REAL TIME EVENT, it's a Parenthetical Citation or a set-a-side chapter which speaks about other things that happened in the Judgement chapters besides the Seal, Trumpet or Vial Judgment's per se.

Rev. 10 is a flash forward to the end.

Rev. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations, they are not a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation.

Rev. 11 is about the Two-witnesses ministry, it seems to start 75 days before the Beast comes to power and they seem to die about 75 days before the Beast dies. They preach repentance to the Jews for 1260 days. This happens from 75 days before the Beast comes to power until 75 days before the Beast is killed/destroyed by Jesus at the 7th Vial. When the 7th Trumpet sounds in Rev. chapter 11, the Two-witnesses are already dead, this means they actually put forth this prayer unto God before they died. The 7th Trumpet is nothing more than all 7 Vials Combined. This is why it says Babylon is Fallen. The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe !!

Rev. 12 and 13 both start of course in Rev. ch. 6 , in the Middle of the Week. One shows the Beast chasing Israel into the Wilderness and the other shows the Beast ruling for 42 months.

Rev. 14 is all about three specific Harvests, the Church is Raptured in verse 14, the Wheat {144,000} grows with the Wicked Tares until the end !! Jesus gathers the Wheat into his barn, whilst bundling the Wicked Tares together to be burned at a later date. {Second Death}. This chapter thus covers the full 7 years in total.

Rev. 15&16 are about the last 7 Vials, but they come forth from the Last/7th Trumpet, and thus the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe !! Jesus takes over in Rev. 16:19 and God sees the Nations he defeats as Babylon, and Vial #6 tells us who these Nations are, the Kings of the East, and the Kings of the WHOLE WORLD, so Babylon = the Whole World in God's eyes. This is the End of Babylon, or Satan's Rule on earth, Jesus takes over here, Babylon has fallen the Angel says IT IS DONE !! This of course ends the world as we know it. Thus Rev. 17 and 18 have to be about Events that have already come to pass, just as I have already asserted.

Rev. 17 is the Judgment of the Harlot. All False Religion is Judged here. In the end she is killed off by the Kings in League with the Beast starting at the midway point, in Rev. 6, the Beast demands to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD, thus the Kings kill off Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and all religions. The Harlot {False Religions} had been co-mingled with Babylon {False/Beast Governments} since the beginning, she is the mother of harlots, she is an abomination, and she was a Mystery until God explained who she was. She was co-mingled with Babylon !!

Rev. 18 is the other side of the two sided coin. The Harlot RIDES the Beast !! Babylon is the Whole World under the rule of Satan, Babel means confusion, all men that follow Satan by definition are CONFUSED no doubt. So all those that fight for Satan against God at Armageddon are seen as Babylon the Great !! And thus God gives them the winepress of His Wrath {Rev. 16:19}. God calls Israel to come out of Babylon in verse 4, lest she {Israel} receives of her {Babylon/Worlds} Plagues. Babylon or the Worlds Merchants are dismayed that her COMMERCE is destroyed, but of course that is what the Plagues of God were designed to do !! The Trees, Seas and the Earth are all hit with fires and plagues, the 2nd Woe kills 1.5 Billion people, the Anti-Christ/Beast kills 2 Billion people. Of course this hurts Babylons {WHOLE WORLDS} economy. In ONE HOUR judgment comes on Babylon, well the Kings rule with the Beast for ONE HOUR also {42 Months just as Rev. 17:12 says, the Kings have power with the Beast for ONE HOUR which = 42 Months}. Rev. 18 is the Whole World getting hit with God's Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, it starts in Rev. 6, and runs through Rev. 16, whereas the Harlot is killed off in Rev. ch. 6 to begin with, then she is replaced by the False Prophet Religious Beast.

Rev. 19 is the Church going to Heaven, readying herself to become Christs Bride, Marrying the Lamb, then returning to earth with Jesus on White horses {as Conquerors}, where we have our Marriage Supper {Armageddon}. This chapter also lasts the full 7 years, thus it is also not a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation.

Rev. 20, is the Judgment Seat, Rev. 21 and 22 are the everafter and the New Jerusalem.

Your argument on the elders is weak at best. 

For the readers: here we have two people - both saying they learned from God Himself, yet the two disagree.  How can this be?  It is very simple: preconceptions are very strong and cloud what the Holy Spirit says.  But there is more: the Holy Spirit can and does teach via the inward witness. The problem here is, we have a human spirit within and few people learn to distinguish between the two voices. On the other hand, Jesus can teach, speaking out loud where people hear both His voice and His words.  It is much more difficult to confuse His voice with anything else. For the most part, this is the way God has taught me: voice and words.  Occasionally Father God will speak with an audible voice and words that can be heard.  Of course the Holy Spirit can speak with an audible voice also; if someone learns to distinguish between all these voices, they have done well.

For the most part, Revelation Man, you have a lot of human reasoning displayed here. Do you not understand that by the time of Rev. chapter 17, there will be left only ONE religion left, and that being the religion of the Beast?  Did you forget that he will deceive the ENTIRE WORLD? That will include ALL false religions of today.

Edited May 27, 2019 by iamlamad

[Last Daze]

17 hours ago, OldCoot said:

The key to the passage there is in Revelation 5:10, "made them" (highlighted above) as opposed to " made us" that occurs in many translations.  If the word is "us", then it wold support the contention that the Elders are the redeemed who have been removed.  A pre-trib scenario.  That would negate a 32AD scenario.

The Greek there is "ego".  That is a personal possessive.  The equivalent would be "I", "Me", and the collective "us", not a deflective "them", "they", etc.  Amazing how a word can really paint a different picture.

But again, one cannot make a doctrine on one verse, one chapter, one book, or even one Testament.  It has to be supported from both OT and NT equally to be valid.    I am still waiting for the supporting texts from the OT that equally supports a Preterist view or even  a Post Trib view.

Whether it is "them" or "us", the 24 elders were there before the Lamb was (Rev 4).  New covenant believers can not be in heaven before their Savior is there.  The 24 elders can not represent new covenant believers.

[OldCoot]

37 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Whether it is "them" or "us", the 24 elders were there before the Lamb was (Rev 4).  New covenant believers can not be in heaven before their Savior is there.  The 24 elders can not represent new covenant believers.

No the text of Revelation 4 does not say the lamb wasn't there.  Simply that John did not recognize Him.  And I believe that ties into the the statement that the lamb was seen "as it had been slain".  And in keeping with Isaiah 53:2.    

One should avoid trying to read more into the text than what is there. 

But the precedence was set by King David in 1 Chronicles 24 where he divided the priests into 24 divisions.  The scripture is  designed to teach us some principles.  And since Peter made it clear that the redeemed are a royal priesthood (aka kings and priests), it is very apropos that the 24 elders are indeed the redeemed that have been removed.  There is no other scripture as supportive of an alternative view of who these elders are.

Edited May 27, 2019 by OldCoot

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

One should avoid trying to read more into the text than what is there. 

Absolutely.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 4 and 5 is the Raptured Church in Heaven, we see the Elders of the Church in Heaven wearing White. The 24 Elders are the Church. The reasons are many, I will list them below:

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4.

* A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

* A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

* A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !! Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests.

So the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened, thus the Rapture happens before the Seals are opened !! John saw them in Rev. chapters 4 and 5, the Elders are not in Heaven having marred the Lamb without the Church also being there, there is just ONE MARRIAGE !! 

So the Church is shown in heaven, raptured before the Seals have been broken in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9 where they sing a song of the Redeemed. Angels don't need to be redeemed !!

No one really knows who the 24 elders are. For example, they could be Old Testament saints still in their Spirit form.  There is simply no bible proof that any part of them represent a raptured church. In fact, they cannot be, for chapters 4 & 5 give us TIMING information and it is while Jesus is still on the earth or under the earth. This is proven by scripture: Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4, "NO man found" in that first search for one worthy to take the book (Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become worthy). Then the Holy Spirit in the throne room in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5 when Jesus ascended. All this shows us TIMING: Jesus began opening the seals as soon as He ascended. 

The truth then is the church is NOT IN HEAVEN. 

Chapters 2 & 3: John given messages to give to 7 churches: TIMING? Around 95 AD.

Chapter 4: John called up to heaven to be shown visions - so WE could have His book: TIMING? Around 95 AD when John was called up. Therefore it is preposterous that chapter 4 shows a rapture: it DOES show John being called up.

Chapter 4: A: Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father (Telling us the TIMING is while Jesus was on earth or under the earth.

Chapter 4: B:  The Holy Spirit there in the throne room - when Jesus said He would send HIm down as soon as He ascended.

Chapter 5: A: NO MAN FOUND in that first search to find a man worthy to take the book and open the seals: telling us Jesus had not yet risen.

Chapter 5: B: Suddenly a change: Jesus found in a subsequent search: what changed? TIME moved on. Jesus rose from the dead.

Chapter 5: C: Jesus suddenly appears in the throne room, having just ascended - and then sent the Holy Spirit down. 

Note, all this was written after the fact. It was a vision of John's past: looking into the throne room around 32 AD before and then after Jesus rose from the dead. The MAIN THEME: the BOOK in the Father's right hand. Someone MUST be found worthy else Satan remain the god of this world forever. God wanted to tell us about the book; and how when the book gets opened, finally Satan loses and is cast down, and the kingdoms of the world are given to Jesus Christ.

Readers note carefully: for the timing of the rapture we MUST reference Paul's writing since HE ALONE received the revelation of the rapture. Paul teaches us that the start of the Day of the Lord follows hard after the rapture - as if the rapture will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord. Paul doubles down on this, showing us the rapture comes the very moment Wrath begins: only those living in the light of the gospel get caught up while those that are living in darkness get left behind in the sudden destruction of God's wrath. Paul doubles down by telling us this sudden destruction is the very wrath that  God will set NO APPOINTMENTS with His church.

We can pinpoint this very moment in Revelation, NOT in chapter 4 or 5, but JUST BEFORE WRATH begins at the 6th seal. The rapture just before the 6th seal wrath of God fits perfectly with REvelation's own chronology: the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age, and they are told they must wait for judgment to commence until the very last martyr is killed. It is the rapture that will assure no more church age martyrs: the next martyr after the rapture will be a Day of the Lord martyr or a 70th week martyr.  Those martyrs John saw are still waiting for vengence: it will be GOD'S vengeance upon a world that kills God's children. It will begin at that great earthquake wrath at the 6th seal.

John now doubles down in this, or God Himself, for God showed John the raptured church safely in heaven in chapter 7.  Note carefully, the great crowd, too large to number, was NOT SEEN in chapter 5! Why? Because chapter 5 was when Jesus ascended. Chapter 6 begins in 32 AD as Jesus ascended into heaven, took the book, and began opening the seals. The Antichrist will not show up for another 2000 years!

Seal 1: the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.

Seal 2 - 3 - 4: The devil's attempts to stop the gospel. God limited them to 1/4 of the earth. But they failed to keep the gospel in: the gospel is now everywhere!

Seal 5: the martyrs of the church age

Seal 6: the start of the Day of the Lord and God's wrath

Seal 7: the official opening of the 70th week of Daniel: 30 minutes of silence.

Readers take note: this is what is written.  Always remember, if people are willing to pull things out of their context, they can make any verse say almost anything. To find the intent of the Author, we MUST keep ever verse in its scriptural context. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

No the text of Revelation 4 does not say the lamb wasn't there.  Simply that John did not recognize Him.  And I believe that ties into the the statement that the lamb was seen "as it had been slain".  And in keeping with Isaiah 53:2.    

One should avoid trying to read more into the text than what is there. 

But the precedence was set by King David in 1 Chronicles 24 where he divided the priests into 24 divisions.  The scripture is  designed to teach us some principles.  And since Peter made it clear that the redeemed are a royal priesthood (aka kings and priests), it is very apropos that the 24 elders are indeed the redeemed that have been removed.  There is no other scripture as supportive of an alternative view of who these elders are.

It is preposterous to even imagine that Jesus, the second person of the trinity, and the MAIN THEME of the New Testament was there in the throne room and NOT SEEN! Ha ha! Notice when He first arrives:

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Readers, be careful to note, GOD IS NOT TRYING TO MAKE THIS DIFFICULT: IT IS A REVEALING!  If Jesus had been there, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN SEEN. He rose FILLED WITH GLORY bright as the sun! It would have been impossible to miss Him! Besides, He would have been at the right hand of the Father, plainly visible.  But John only saw the throne with the Father seated on the throne. Compare that with what Stephen saw! 

Acts 7:55

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56:  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

What the scriptures are showing is that HE WAS NOT THERE!

This is proven by the fact that in the first search for one worthy, NO MAN WAS FOUND. Why? How could that be? The picture God is painting with His words here is that JESUS WAS STILL ON EARTH or under the earth and had not yet ascended.  But TIME MOVES ON and in a subsequent search Jesus WAS found worthy: He had just risen from the dead. Then as we know from other scriptures, HE ASCENDED: and sent the Holy Spirit down:

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

God's purpose here is to show is WHEN Jesus took the book and began opening the seals: it was the moment HE ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

It is a good thing to read these scriptures. It is a different thing altogether to understand them.

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Whether it is "them" or "us", the 24 elders were there before the Lamb was (Rev 4).  New covenant believers can not be in heaven before their Savior is there.  The 24 elders can not represent new covenant believers.

They indeed do represent the Church, Rev. 5:10 says we are Kings and Priests. Does anyone get the Sealed BOOK that Jesus is opening is the Deed to the earth of course, but it's also the book of life for the Jews, which is why John WEPT !! I have been researching for a blog on this. The book Daniel is told to seal up in Daniel 12 is about those Jewish Saints who will be raised at the end, Jesus {man in linen} tells Daniel to Seal up the book until the end. I don't usually post a lot of scriptures, but this has me giddy.

 

Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up {Satan cast to earth/1260}, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; {/1260 days}and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

Now let's go to Rev. 5.

 

 Rev. 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 

Notice the timing ? Its SEALED UP just as Daniel is being told about Wonders that will end 1260 days after the Jews have been Conquered. And its then UNSEALED by Jesus at that EXACT SAME MOMENT in time, chills came over me when I recently understood this. Its not only the Plagues that are Sealed, but its the Book of Life for the Jews, which explains why John wept and wept until he understood that Jesus the Lamb was already in Heaven. He then takes the book from the Fathers hands and AT THAT VERY MOMENT IN TIME, he releases the Anti-Christ and every Jew worthy to be raised from the dead's name is written in this book, including the 1/3 of the Jews who repented and God is protecting in the Petra/Bozrah area. 

All of these EVENTS happen starting at the Midway Point or at the 1260 Event where Jesus releases the Anti-Christ. The SEALS are on the backside, the Trumpets come from the 7th Seal and the 3rd Woe is the 7th Trumpet, so what is on the inside of the book ? The Book of Life of the Jews. The Church is already in Heaven. God judges the other Gentiles in Rev. 20:4 who endured without taking the Mark of the Beast. 

What Old Coot is saying is you should not assume someone is not there, just because its not SPECIFICALLY STATED, we have to read between the lines here. If Jesus wasn't in Heaven then where was he ? It says he was not on earth nor under the earth either. So Jesus was NOWHERE ? Of course not, Jesus was in Heaven, but he was not a MERE MAN, he was the Lord God, a slain Lamb. The picture is just being painted to draw ones eyes to this point of emphasis, a bloody Sacrifice who is WORTHY, thus His Worthiness explains itself. Its the Middle of the Week, of course Jesus is in Heaven. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

43 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Absolutely.

just before this, OldCoot had said:

One should avoid trying to read more into the text than what is there. 

My answer:

On the other hand, one should understand what is clearly written!