MATTHEW 6:15 IF YE FORGIVE NOT

[douge]

On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 10:20 AM, JohnD said:

OR...

The New Covenant / Testament was not in effect yet...

Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The so-called Lord's prayer (actually the disciple's prayer) is under the Old Covenant in the Old Testament.

The New Testament / New Covenant did not begin until the death of our Lord on the cross.

Luke 22:20 (AV)
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 (AV)
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

 

Yes, it is the covenant, that requires that to be forgiven one had to forgive; this is reflected in the prayer in Matthew 6:12 and in Matthew 6:14-15

[JohnD]

17 minutes ago, douge said:

Yes, it is the covenant, that requires that to be forgiven one had to forgive; this is reflected in the prayer in Matthew 6:12 and in Matthew 6:14-15

"The covenant?"

To which of the two covenants do you refer?

The New Covenant requires only belief (John 3:16-18 / Ephesians 2:8-10).

1 Corinthians 1:26–2:5 (AV)
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

God gave man the first covenant (the Law of Moses) to prove to us once and for all the futility of trying to keep it.

James 2:10 (AV)
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Galatians 5:3 (AV)
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Galatians 3:24–25 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We are born with a sin nature:

Psalm 51:5 (AV)
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ephesians 2:5 (AV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Romans 5:12–19 (AV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So, no one born with the human nature of the first Adam can keep the Law of Moses.

Forgive others or God will not forgive you is OLD Covenant taught in a time that was still under the Old Testament times:

Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Luke 22:20 (AV)
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 (AV)
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

This is not axiomatic speech. This is biblical fact.

Those who add to or detract from the commands and word of God diminish it / nullify it.

We disparage  the Judaizers of the first century for trying to put New Testament believers back under the Old Testament Law, but people have been doing the same thing in the Church ever since... the Constantine bloodless conquest.

Revelation 6:2 (AV)
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Olly Olly oxen free... Rome is no longer killing Christians... come out come out wherever you are... the Romanized version of Christianity was then made the religion of State and then it became the State. 

Instead of an Emperor there is a Pope, Cardinals in place of a Senate, Bishops in place of regional governors and so on. Headquartered / capital in Vatican City (which is very near Rome, don't you think?). It's a brilliant strategy if you think of it. What outlasts kings and kingdoms, emperors and empires, presidents and democracies... but religion? You'll never have the devotion from citizenry that you have from religious people. They will die and sell out their families "for god." 

The Rome that fell historically was an empty shell as the asp had already hatched.

Talk about adding to the Gospel, even a light study of Roman Catholicism proves this is the case.

And Protestantism did not reform nearly enough (many early denominations are nearly the spitting image of Roman Catholicism).

We must be aware of these things and protect the pristine Gospel message of Jesus Christ.

 

[douge]

50 minutes ago, JohnD said:

"The covenant?"

To which of the two covenants do you refer?

The New Covenant requires only belief (John 3:16-18 / Ephesians 2:8-10).

1 Corinthians 1:26–2:5 (AV)
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

God gave man the first covenant (the Law of Moses) to prove to us once and for all the futility of trying to keep it.

James 2:10 (AV)
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Galatians 5:3 (AV)
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Galatians 3:24–25 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We are born with a sin nature:

Psalm 51:5 (AV)
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ephesians 2:5 (AV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Romans 5:12–19 (AV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So, no one born with the human nature of the first Adam can keep the Law of Moses.

Forgive others or God will not forgive you is OLD Covenant taught in a time that was still under the Old Testament times:

Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Luke 22:20 (AV)
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 (AV)
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

This is not axiomatic speech. This is biblical fact.

Those who add to or detract from the commands and word of God diminish it / nullify it.

We disparage  the Judaizers of the first century for trying to put New Testament believers back under the Old Testament Law, but people have been doing the same thing in the Church ever since... the Constantine bloodless conquest.

Revelation 6:2 (AV)
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Olly Olly oxen free... Rome is no longer killing Christians... come out come out wherever you are... the Romanized version of Christianity was then made the religion of State and then it became the State. 

Instead of an Emperor there is a Pope, Cardinals in place of a Senate, Bishops in place of regional governors and so on. Headquartered / capital in Vatican City (which is very near Rome, don't you think?). It's a brilliant strategy if you think of it. What outlasts kings and kingdoms, emperors and empires, presidents and democracies... but religion? You'll never have the devotion from citizenry that you have from religious people. They will die and sell out their families "for god." 

The Rome that fell historically was an empty shell as the asp had already hatched.

Talk about adding to the Gospel, even a light study of Roman Catholicism proves this is the case.

And Protestantism did not reform nearly enough (many early denominations are nearly the spitting image of Roman Catholicism).

We must be aware of these things and protect the pristine Gospel message of Jesus Christ.

 

The Lord's prayer was taught to the disciples under the old covenant.

The new covenant still requires obedience to the law. The new covenant enables Israel to obey the law;

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.  Ezekiel 36:27

All are, and have always, been saved by grace, through faith. It is, and has always been, by the blood of Christ

Christ shed his blood, and rose again for Israel; to establish, by his death, the new testament; he rose again to sit on the throne in his kingdom.

We have the spiritual benefits of the new testament"s death and resurrection of Christ. He was delivered for our offences and rose again for our justification.

Today, in the dispensation of grace, we are not under the new testament.

[Blood Bought 1953]

7 hours ago, JohnD said:

"The covenant?"

To which of the two covenants do you refer?

The New Covenant requires only belief (John 3:16-18 / Ephesians 2:8-10).

1 Corinthians 1:26–2:5 (AV)
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

God gave man the first covenant (the Law of Moses) to prove to us once and for all the futility of trying to keep it.

James 2:10 (AV)
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Galatians 5:3 (AV)
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Galatians 3:24–25 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We are born with a sin nature:

Psalm 51:5 (AV)
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ephesians 2:5 (AV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Romans 5:12–19 (AV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So, no one born with the human nature of the first Adam can keep the Law of Moses.

Forgive others or God will not forgive you is OLD Covenant taught in a time that was still under the Old Testament times:

Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Luke 22:20 (AV)
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 (AV)
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

This is not axiomatic speech. This is biblical fact.

Those who add to or detract from the commands and word of God diminish it / nullify it.

We disparage  the Judaizers of the first century for trying to put New Testament believers back under the Old Testament Law, but people have been doing the same thing in the Church ever since... the Constantine bloodless conquest.

Revelation 6:2 (AV)
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Olly Olly oxen free... Rome is no longer killing Christians... come out come out wherever you are... the Romanized version of Christianity was then made the religion of State and then it became the State. 

Instead of an Emperor there is a Pope, Cardinals in place of a Senate, Bishops in place of regional governors and so on. Headquartered / capital in Vatican City (which is very near Rome, don't you think?). It's a brilliant strategy if you think of it. What outlasts kings and kingdoms, emperors and empires, presidents and democracies... but religion? You'll never have the devotion from citizenry that you have from religious people. They will die and sell out their families "for god." 

The Rome that fell historically was an empty shell as the asp had already hatched.

Talk about adding to the Gospel, even a light study of Roman Catholicism proves this is the case.

And Protestantism did not reform nearly enough (many early denominations are nearly the spitting image of Roman Catholicism).

We must be aware of these things and protect the pristine Gospel message of Jesus Christ.

 

 

Excellent post.

[JohnD]

7 hours ago, douge said:

The Lord's prayer was taught to the disciples under the old covenant.

The new covenant still requires obedience to the law. The new covenant enables Israel to obey the law;

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.  Ezekiel 36:27

All are, and have always, been saved by grace, through faith. It is, and has always been, by the blood of Christ

Christ shed his blood, and rose again for Israel; to establish, by his death, the new testament; he rose again to sit on the throne in his kingdom.

We have the spiritual benefits of the new testament"s death and resurrection of Christ. He was delivered for our offences and rose again for our justification.

Today, in the dispensation of grace, we are not under the new testament.

The Lord's Prayer is John 17.

The disciple's prayer is what Jesus taught his disciples at their request to be taught to pray the way the disciples of John were taught to pray.

Human tradition labeled it the Lord's prayer.

The New Covenant does not require us to fulfill the Law, but to believe in the one who gave the Law to Moses and who fulfilled it himself (Jesus Christ). 

Before Abraham was I AM (John 8:58 / Exodus 3:15).

Ezekiel 36:27 was prophetically speaking of the time of Grace when the Spirit of God would be IN us and the statutes of the New Covenant which are to believe in Jesus Christ. 

He commands us to disciple all nations and to love one another. Keeping Old Testament Laws of Moses... nope. 

Today, under the dispensation of grace we ARE in the New Covenant (New Testament).

[Xethea]

On 2/25/2019 at 9:48 AM, douge said:

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:15

All that you said about forgiveness in your first sentence, was Jesus dealing with Israel. Israel is under a covenant relationship that they had to adhere to. For them to be forgiven they had to forgive.

That is not to say we shouldn't forgive, you are right in what you said, but the motivation is that we have been forgiven already.  Ephesians 4:32  Colossians 3:13

 

So, does that just go for Israel or all of us? I believe God wants everyone to live for the same purpose the same basic way. To do what is right, what is good, what is loving, what is like what Christ would do. I don't think it just goes for Israel. We should all forgive, always. Because it would be unfair not to forgive others for everything if God has forgiven us for everything. But then this issue in either direction starts a debate or argument about salvation all the time. Then you run into a bunch of Pentecostals believing they will lose salvation, other people say no matter what you do or don't do, you will be saved- so what if we have forgiven others, but suddenly near the last minute of your life, someone is fighting with you in the car out of nowhere, you have not forgiven them, then suddenly you get into a wreck and die. Do you go to Hell because you had not forgiven them before you died? Do you lose salvation? Or if this is disobey, God wouldn't be pleased with it, but he won't remove salvation from your life? 

 

I don't ask this because i want to know, because i do know, but i want everyone here to see your response.

[douge]

16 hours ago, Xethea said:

So, does that just go for Israel or all of us? I believe God wants everyone to live for the same purpose the same basic way. To do what is right, what is good, what is loving, what is like what Christ would do. I don't think it just goes for Israel. We should all forgive, always. Because it would be unfair not to forgive others for everything if God has forgiven us for everything. But then this issue in either direction starts a debate or argument about salvation all the time. Then you run into a bunch of Pentecostals believing they will lose salvation, other people say no matter what you do or don't do, you will be saved- so what if we have forgiven others, but suddenly near the last minute of your life, someone is fighting with you in the car out of nowhere, you have not forgiven them, then suddenly you get into a wreck and die. Do you go to Hell because you had not forgiven them before you died? Do you lose salvation? Or if this is disobey, God wouldn't be pleased with it, but he won't remove salvation from your life? 

 

I don't ask this because i want to know, because i do know, but i want everyone here to see your response.

Allow me to restate what I said:

"That is not to say we shouldn't forgive, you are right in what you said, but the motivation is that we have been forgiven already.  Ephesians 4:32  Colossians 3:13 "

Yes we should forgive.

Israel is under a covenant relationship in regards to forgiveness.

We are forgiven freely, and have eternal life by grace, through faith in the redemption of Jesus Christ.....nothing else.

 

 

[Xethea]

23 hours ago, douge said:

Allow me to restate what I said:

"That is not to say we shouldn't forgive, you are right in what you said, but the motivation is that we have been forgiven already.  Ephesians 4:32  Colossians 3:13 "

Yes we should forgive.

Israel is under a covenant relationship in regards to forgiveness.

We are forgiven freely, and have eternal life by grace, through faith in the redemption of Jesus Christ.....nothing else.

 

 

When you say "through faith" do you believe that is faith we choose to have and it comes from us or from God, or that God must give it to us and make us have faith or else we cannot have faith in Jesus Christ? 

[Who me]

On 18 February 2019 at 2:34 PM, PepperS said:

Can someone define forgiveness? Not in terms of God forgiving us, but in terms of us forgiving others?

There is a person in my life that I have so far, found impossible to forgive.

Then comit them to God and to his care. Make it a poractice to pray for them and for their good.

[enoob57]

Forgiveness of others is made easy when one sees themselves with error...