Matthew 10:28 and hell

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

All sins are forgiven......those that “ cash in” by their faith in Jesus Christ can claim this gift......failure to cash in with faith in Christ will deny one of that free gift......

Let every man , woman and child leap up for JOY on this wonderful good news .   But reject it and its a lake of harsh fire .

The good news is , That GOD did send His only begotten Son to be the savoir ,   but if one rejects ,   They damned in the second death lake of firey fire .

I got good news .  RUN TO CHRIST peoples ,, RUN to CHRIST , cause in HIM is the free gift .     hands up and praise the LORD .

So instead of folks debating the exact temp of that lake , or etc ,  GET BUSY pointing to CHRIST who will ensure we never see that fire .      HANDS UP and PRAISE THE LORD .

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

2 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Let every man , woman and child leap up for JOY on this wonderful good news .   But reject it and its a lake of harsh fire .

The good news is , That GOD did send His only begotten Son to be the savoir ,   but if one rejects ,   They damned in the second death lake of firey fire .

I got good news .  RUN TO CHRIST peoples ,, RUN to CHRIST , cause in HIM is the free gift .     hands up and praise the LORD .

So instead of folks debating the exact temp of that lake , or etc ,  GET BUSY pointing to CHRIST who will ensure we never see that fire .      HANDS UP and PRAISE THE LORD .

 

 

Jesus lamented the fact that He wanted to gather His people like a mother hen and cover and protect them from all harm. “ Yet they would not come to me” .Come to Jesus as a broken, contrite sinner.....ask Him to save you, then watch what He does.Ive seen it happen. I’ve lived it. “ Turn to me, and I will turn to you”.Its really that simple.God bless

[JohnD]

What actually trumps all arguments to the contrary is:

Mark 9:43–48 (AV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[JohnD]

Isaiah 66:24 (AV)
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[DarrenJClark]

5 hours ago, JohnD said:

What actually trumps all arguments to the contrary is:

Mark 9:43–48 (AV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

Yup, but just quoting a passage is not enough.  Note that Jesus is quoting almost verbatim Isaiah 66:24.

 

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

 

In Isaiah the righteous are looking upon the slain enemies of God.  The fire and the worm are consuming corpses.  This is a scene that depicts the utterly shameful fate for the Jews, which was to not be buried after dying.   It is not one that communicates the corpses are somehow alive and conscious.  In Mark 9:43-48 Jesus is drawing on this imagery to make the same point about those who end up in hell.  They will be dead and abhorred.

 

That this imagery is used in the NT to depict the complete destruction of the wicked is seen in Matthew 3:12,

 

"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

 

Here the imagery of unquenchable fire is used to depict the burning to ash of the wicked.  This is evidence supporting my exegesis of Matthew 10:28, which tells us that hell is where the body and soul will be killed/destroyed.

 

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

 

So, yes, I can see that Mark 9:43-48 is an important passage for understanding hell.  As you should be able to see it contributes to the idea that in hell the wicked will be killed/destroyed.   

[DarrenJClark]

5 hours ago, JohnD said:

Isaiah 66:24 (AV)
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

I just saw your comment.  This is a scene of corpses being devoured by fire and worm.  What about this verse tells you that the wicked are alive and conscious? 

[JohnD]

Their worm. Not worms. Their worm (spirit) does not die

and the fire is not quenched.

Smack dab in the beginning of the crucifixion Psalm...

Psalm 22:6 (AV)
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

And, look at the Rich Man and Lazarus.

A conscious out-of-body state:

Luke 16:19–31 (AV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by JohnD

[DarrenJClark]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

Their worm. Not worms. Their worm (spirit) does not die

and the fire is not quenched.

Smack dab in the beginning of the crucifixion Psalm...

Psalm 22:6 (AV)
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

And, look at the Rich Man and Lazarus.

A conscious out-of-body state:

Luke 16:19–31 (AV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

"Their worm. Not worms. Their worm (spirit) does not die"

 

What exegetical warrant do you have for interpreting "their worm" as a reference to the human spirit?  As I posted before, Jesus is quoting verbatim from an OT verse that clearly has corpses in view and the change from "the worm" (Is 66:24) to "their worm" in Mark 9 does not in any way denote or connote the human spirit is in view.  

 

You are going to have to show why "their worm" = "their spirit".

 

I also have to question how you can think the singular worm speaks to the very many human spirits.  If the point was to refer to the spirits of the wicked not dying then why put this in the singular?   

 

"and the fire is not quenched."

 

This is a slight mistranslation.  The Hebrew word in Isaiah 66:24 does mean that the fire will not be quenched, as does the Greek word in the LXX that was used to translate from the OT Masoretic text.   That fire is consuming corpses so the idea is that the fire will not go out until it has consumed the bodies of the slain wicked.   Even if the fire burns eternally you still only have corpses being burned.   In Mark 9:43-48 the adjective ἄσβεστος (asbestos), meaning "unquenchable".   An unquenchable fire is just a fire that cannot be put out.  Neither "neither shall their fire be quenched" from Isaiah 66:24, nor "unquenchable fire" (my translation to show what the Greek literally means) of Mark 9:44; 46; 48 tell you that the fire will never, ever go out.  In the Bible the imagery of an unquenchable fire is one that is used to express that God's judgment of the wicked cannot be stopped (c.f. 2 Kings; Isaiah 22:17; Jeremiah 7:20; Ezekiel 20:47).    In the references I cite here you will see that the idea is that the imagery of an unquenchable fire communicates that the fire (God's punishment of the wicked) is not able to be stopped until it has consumed the wicked.

 

I realize that you might be KJVO so could disregard my comments on translation and that is why I included a reference from Matthew 3:12 where the unquenchable fire actually burns the chaff to ash.  That is a vivid picture of a fire that cannot be quenched until it has utterly destroyed the wicked.   

 

I have given you reasons why I interpret the unquenchable fire as I do and that is what I ask of you regarding your interpretation of their worm as referring to their spirits.

 

"Smack dab in the beginning of the crucifixion Psalm...

Psalm 22:6 (AV)
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people."

 

And?  That verse literally does not equate worm with the human spirit.  Rhetorically it emphasizes how low a status the subject has become.  The context is different in Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9 where the fire and the worm are instruments of their destruction.  You cannot deny that this is exactly what is intended in Matthew 3:12.

 

What you have done is seen worm mentioned in both verses, read them out of context, and put them together as if they are speaking to the same thing.  The imagery is being used differently in each instance.  Read them in context.  

 

Why do you not acknowledge the implications of Isaiah 66:24?

 

"And, look at the Rich Man and Lazarus.

A conscious out-of-body state:

Luke 16:19–31 (AV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

 

Yes, this is a common passage cited in debates over hell.  I will assume a literal reading for the sake of the argument.  The Greek word for hell in verse 23 is literally Hades, which either refers to the grave or to the underworld like the scene in this episode.  That means it literally is referring to the intermediate state and not the final fate of the wicked.  At the end of this age God will destroy all the wicked by fire as he judges them (see Matthew 13:40-42).  So we have in Luke 16 a picture the intermediate state were one man is in torment in Hades after his death but before his resurrection to judgment/damnation (John 5:29).  After the final judgment the wicked will be utterly destroyed (Matt 3:12; 10:28; 13:40-42).  The fact that Luke 16 literally only refers to the intermediate state makes it much less relevant to the debate over hell than those verses speaking to the final judgment.

 

_____________________________________________

In all of this you have not yet commented on my exegesis of Matthew 10:28, which the initial post requested.  I wonder if you have comments on the reasons I give for my interpretation of that verse.

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by DarrenJClark

[JohnD]

On 3/10/2019 at 10:11 PM, DarrenJClark said:

"Their worm. Not worms. Their worm (spirit) does not die"

 

What exegetical warrant do you have for interpreting "their worm" as a reference to the human spirit?  As I posted before, Jesus is quoting verbatim from an OT verse that clearly has corpses in view and the change from "the worm" (Is 66:24) to "their worm" in Mark 9 does not in any way denote or connote the human spirit is in view.  

 

You are going to have to show why "their worm" = "their spirit".

 

I also have to question how you can think the singular worm speaks to the very many human spirits.  If the point was to refer to the spirits of the wicked not dying then why put this in the singular?   

 

"and the fire is not quenched."

 

This is a slight mistranslation.  The Hebrew word in Isaiah 66:24 does mean that the fire will not be quenched, as does the Greek word in the LXX that was used to translate from the OT Masoretic text.   That fire is consuming corpses so the idea is that the fire will not go out until it has consumed the bodies of the slain wicked.   Even if the fire burns eternally you still only have corpses being burned.   In Mark 9:43-48 the adjective ἄσβεστος (asbestos), meaning "unquenchable".   An unquenchable fire is just a fire that cannot be put out.  Neither "neither shall their fire be quenched" from Isaiah 66:24, nor "unquenchable fire" (my translation to show what the Greek literally means) of Mark 9:44; 46; 48 tell you that the fire will never, ever go out.  In the Bible the imagery of an unquenchable fire is one that is used to express that God's judgment of the wicked cannot be stopped (c.f. 2 Kings; Isaiah 22:17; Jeremiah 7:20; Ezekiel 20:47).    In the references I cite here you will see that the idea is that the imagery of an unquenchable fire communicates that the fire (God's punishment of the wicked) is not able to be stopped until it has consumed the wicked.

 

I realize that you might be KJVO so could disregard my comments on translation and that is why I included a reference from Matthew 3:12 where the unquenchable fire actually burns the chaff to ash.  That is a vivid picture of a fire that cannot be quenched until it has utterly destroyed the wicked.   

 

I have given you reasons why I interpret the unquenchable fire as I do and that is what I ask of you regarding your interpretation of their worm as referring to their spirits.

 

"Smack dab in the beginning of the crucifixion Psalm...

Psalm 22:6 (AV)
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people."

 

And?  That verse literally does not equate worm with the human spirit.  Rhetorically it emphasizes how low a status the subject has become.  The context is different in Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9 where the fire and the worm are instruments of their destruction.  You cannot deny that this is exactly what is intended in Matthew 3:12.

 

What you have done is seen worm mentioned in both verses, read them out of context, and put them together as if they are speaking to the same thing.  The imagery is being used differently in each instance.  Read them in context.  

 

Why do you not acknowledge the implications of Isaiah 66:24?

 

"And, look at the Rich Man and Lazarus.

A conscious out-of-body state:

Luke 16:19–31 (AV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

 

Yes, this is a common passage cited in debates over hell.  I will assume a literal reading for the sake of the argument.  The Greek word for hell in verse 23 is literally Hades, which either refers to the grave or to the underworld like the scene in this episode.  That means it literally is referring to the intermediate state and not the final fate of the wicked.  At the end of this age God will destroy all the wicked by fire as he judges them (see Matthew 13:40-42).  So we have in Luke 16 a picture the intermediate state were one man is in torment in Hades after his death but before his resurrection to judgment/damnation (John 5:29).  After the final judgment the wicked will be utterly destroyed (Matt 3:12; 10:28; 13:40-42).  The fact that Luke 16 literally only refers to the intermediate state makes it much less relevant to the debate over hell than those verses speaking to the final judgment.

 

_____________________________________________

In all of this you have not yet commented on my exegesis of Matthew 10:28, which the initial post requested.  I wonder if you have comments on the reasons I give for my interpretation of that verse.

 

Job 25:6 (AV)
6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

Job 25:6 (NASB95)
6 How much less man, that maggot, And the son of man, that worm!”

Job 25:6 (NIV84)
6 how much less man, who is but a maggot— a son of man, who is only a worm!”

Job 25:6 (RSV)
6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!”

 

[Isaacsname]

Coccus ilicis, another interesting Biblical / history topic