The Hebrews Roots Movement

[BibleGuy]

20 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I'm new to this forum.  Thought I might share a little.  I've read through the posts in this thread.  All very good discussion. 

I've read that in the Hebrew "believe" is an action word, not just something that happens in the mind.  Belief always includes the actions resulting from that belief.  A belief that does not encompass actions resulting from that belief, is not really belief.  It is counterfeit. 

A mob boss may wear a shiny cross on a chain around his neck, but that doesn't make him a "Christian", filled with spirit of Christ.  He may just be buying "fire insurance", or trying to deceive others into thinking he is Christian.   

EXACTLY TRUE my friend!

Abraham BELIEVED and it was credited to Him as righteousness (Ge.15:6)....but he ALSO obeyed all God's laws and commands (Ge.26:5)....TOGETHER.....THAT is the Hebraic conception of BELIEVE.

You are right!

Thus, FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23).

FAITH is of TORAH (given Dt. 32:20).

FAITH is of TORAH (Ps.119:30,86,138).

In fact, the FAITH of Ps. 119:30,86,138 (and of Hab.2:4 and of Dt. 32:20) referring to Torah, relates to the SAME WORD for BELIEVE in Ge. 15:6.

All very true.

blessings!

 

[Resurrection Priest]

On the idea of two covenants - the "first" and the "new".   I personally believe there had to be a "new covenant" because the betrothed "husband" of the first covenant (the Sinai Covenant) died.   Paul says we are "betrothed" to "another man" to the one who rose from the dead (Romans  .  Paul makes the point that a woman is only under "the law of her husband" so long as her husband lives. 

The Sinai Covenant was a marriage covenant.  That is why idolatry was termed "adultery".  This was the legal basis for the LORD's "bill of divorcement" from Israel.  Here are three verses.  There are others.

    Isaiah 54:5  “For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.”

    Jeremiah 3:14 “Return, O backsliding children,’ says the LORD; ‘for I am married to you.”

    Jeremiah 2:1-3 “Thus says the LORD: I remember you, the kindness of your youth, the love of your betrothal, when you went after Me in the wilderness . . .”

THE LORD DIVORCED ISRAEL [the 10 Northern Tribes] FOR HARLOTRY

    Jeremiah 3:8  “Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.”

    Isaiah 50:1 “Thus says the LORD: ‘Where is the certificate of your mother's divorce, whom I have put away? . . . And for your transgressions your mother has been put away.’”

    Hosea 2:2  “Bring charges against your mother, bring charges; For she is not My wife, nor am I her Husband!”

JUDAH BECAME A "WIDOW" when her "Husband" died on a cross.

Every believer in Christ Jesus is now "betrothed" to Him, by a NEW marriage covenant.  The "marriage feast" will take place at the coming of the kingdom. 

    2 Corinthians 11:2 [Paul] “For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

    Ephesians 5:23  “For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.”

Romans 7:1  “Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?   2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
    3 So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man.
    4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ (through His death), that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead” (NAS).

  The first marriage covenant - the Sinai Covenant - really is “obsolete”.  It was rendered obsolete when the “husband” of Israel died.

        IMPORTANT:  If the LORD had “divorced” all 12 tribes, then Yeshua the Messiah could not have been “born under the law” - born under the Sinai Covenant (Galatians 4:4).   

        Instead, the LORD saved “a remnant” of Judah called the “good figs”. From this remnant came Yeshua the Messiah.

        Christ was “born under” the first blood covenant - the Sinai Covenant - which He never broke.  He fulfilled every condition of that covenant.  He kept “the Law” perfectly - therefore God His Father can give to Him all of the promises of that first covenant - which included possession of “the land”.  We who belong to Christ by faith, will partake of His promised “inheritance”, because we are “betrothed to Him” by a New Covenant.

Hope all that wasn't too long.  Complicated concepts take some space to explain. 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

A renewed marriage covenant was illegal.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4  “When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house . . . then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD . . .”

Jesus cannot re-marry the "wife" He divorced.  But if He died, then the record is wiped clean.  The He becomes "another man" (as Paul wrote).  His death was the only way for Jesus can "marry" Israel again. 

And I might add:

If the "husband" of the Sinai Covenant, and the "husband" of the new marriage Covenant, is the same Son of God - why would He want something different from His new betrothed wife - something different from what He wanted from His "first" wife?  That is why I believe the 10 Commands (all 10 of them) are included in the New Covenant.  They were after all, termed "the Covenant". 

Most Christians cannot tell me what is included in the New Covenant - what are the terms, or where the New Covenant is found in the Bible.  They get rather amazed when I show them that under the New Covenant, God promised to "write My law on your hearts". 

    Exodus 34:28  “So he [Moses] was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.”

    Deuteronomy 4:13  “So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.”

Paul called the Ten Commandments a "ministry of death written and engraved on stones" (2 Cor 3:7).  Why would he say that!  Reason: Because they could not keep that covenant - not in their own strength.  Under the New Covenant, with the infilling of His Spirit, we can keep that Covenant.  When we read the TenCs as something we must do for God, we are carrying a bolder between our shoulders.  The TenCs are what He will do - in us. 

 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

A "new" Covenant allows for changes.  The only thing I see changed was "the priesthood" (Heb 7:12).  But if the Aaronic priesthood was changed, then the system of animal sacrifices was changed also.  The Torah required that every sacrifice be taken to the Temple at Jerusalem, to a priest of the Aaronic order.  

I've heard all the arguments for a "parallel priesthood".  They say that Christ cannot be a priest on the earth.  Well - if He has been made a priest after the order of Melchizedek, wasn't Melchizedek a priest, as well as a king on the earth?  If Christ as been made "a priest forever" wouldn't the "forever" have to include the time when He rules on the earth as king? 

At Mount Sinai the priesthood was changed FROM "the firstborn" of family or clan or tribe TO Aaron and his sons.  That was a "change". 

    Numbers 8:17-18 “I have taken the Levites instead of all the firstborn of the children of Israel.”

When Messiah died, His death wiped out the sins of Israel, including the sin of the golden calf rebellion - for those who repented.  Which means that He could then CHANGE the priesthood BACK to "the firstborn". 

And who is "the firstborn over all creation" (Eph 1:15).  Yeshua!  That is why He can legally be High Priest over the House of God.  In Him we will become priests (Rev 20:1) because we are Israel - the LORD's "firstborn".

    Exodus 4:22 [The LORD said to Moses] “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Israel is My son, My firstborn”’”.

[BibleGuy]

46 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

On the idea of two covenants - the "first" and the "new".   I personally believe there had to be a "new covenant" because the betrothed "husband" of the first covenant (the Sinai Covenant) died.   Paul says we are "betrothed" to "another man" to the one who rose from the dead (Romans  .  Paul makes the point that a woman is only under "the law of her husband" so long as her husband lives. 

The Sinai Covenant was a marriage covenant.  That is why idolatry was termed "adultery".  This was the legal basis for the LORD's "bill of divorcement" from Israel.  Here are three verses.  There are others.

    Isaiah 54:5  “For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.”

    Jeremiah 3:14 “Return, O backsliding children,’ says the LORD; ‘for I am married to you.”

    Jeremiah 2:1-3 “Thus says the LORD: I remember you, the kindness of your youth, the love of your betrothal, when you went after Me in the wilderness . . .”

THE LORD DIVORCED ISRAEL [the 10 Northern Tribes] FOR HARLOTRY

    Jeremiah 3:8  “Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.”

    Isaiah 50:1 “Thus says the LORD: ‘Where is the certificate of your mother's divorce, whom I have put away? . . . And for your transgressions your mother has been put away.’”

    Hosea 2:2  “Bring charges against your mother, bring charges; For she is not My wife, nor am I her Husband!”

JUDAH BECAME A "WIDOW" when her "Husband" died on a cross.

Every believer in Christ Jesus is now "betrothed" to Him, by a NEW marriage covenant.  The "marriage feast" will take place at the coming of the kingdom. 

    2 Corinthians 11:2 [Paul] “For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

    Ephesians 5:23  “For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.”

Romans 7:1  “Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?   2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
    3 So then if, while her husband is living, she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress, though she is joined to another man.
    4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ (through His death), that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead” (NAS).

  The first marriage covenant - the Sinai Covenant - really is “obsolete”.  It was rendered obsolete when the “husband” of Israel died.

        IMPORTANT:  If the LORD had “divorced” all 12 tribes, then Yeshua the Messiah could not have been “born under the law” - born under the Sinai Covenant (Galatians 4:4).   

        Instead, the LORD saved “a remnant” of Judah called the “good figs”. From this remnant came Yeshua the Messiah.

        Christ was “born under” the first blood covenant - the Sinai Covenant - which He never broke.  He fulfilled every condition of that covenant.  He kept “the Law” perfectly - therefore God His Father can give to Him all of the promises of that first covenant - which included possession of “the land”.  We who belong to Christ by faith, will partake of His promised “inheritance”, because we are “betrothed to Him” by a New Covenant.

Hope all that wasn't too long.  Complicated concepts take some space to explain. 

 

All sounds just about perfect, based on my first skim!

I would just add that the SAME TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33) passes into the NEW Covenant.

So, we still need to obey Torah.

blessings....

 

[Resurrection Priest]

I luv a lot of the Hebrew Roots teaching.  Can't say I like singing every song in Hebrew, or in a minor key.  I love old Christian songs like "The Old Rugged Cross".  (Guess I'm showing my age.)

If it's about understanding Scripture better, then we should also study Greek.  I do not believe that the Hebrew language is "holy" or will be the new universal language in the kingdom.  I don't see that. 

The "Torah Readings" each week focus on a portion of Torah.  As an aside, a small portion of the Prophets or Psalms is brought into the study.  In Hebrew Roots studies, a small portion of the Gospels is also read.  At the end of the year, the readings start all over again for another year.  The problem I see with this, is that the Prophets, Psalms, the entire "New Testament" is somewhat neglected - so far as an in-depth study.  They just keep repeating the Torah studies.  Please know, I'm not against studying Torah.  It's just that we can gain a lot by focused study into other books also. 

I do not say that I "keep" the Feasts.  We do commemorate them, in my home, because of what they teach us.  We also "rest" on the Sabbath.  I don't see where the LORD declared any other day "holy".  He "hallowed" the 7th day at creation - long before Sinai.  To "hallow" something is to declare it holy.  The word "holy" means "belonging to the LORD".  That day has belonged to HIM since the beginning.  It still belongs to Him.  It always will belong to HIM.   

The heaviest "problem" I have with the Hebrew Roots teaching, is the teaching that the Aaronic priesthood and the sacrifice of animals will continue in the Kingdom of Messiah.  I just don't believe that.  Already posted why.  "They shall not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain" (Isa. 11:9, Isa. 65:25).

[BibleGuy]

10 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

A renewed marriage covenant was illegal.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4  “When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house . . . then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD . . .”

Jesus cannot re-marry the "wife" He divorced.  But if He died, then the record is wiped clean.  The He becomes "another man" (as Paul wrote).  His death was the only way for Jesus can "marry" Israel again. 

And I might add:

If the "husband" of the Sinai Covenant, and the "husband" of the new marriage Covenant, is the same Son of God - why would He want something different from His new betrothed wife - something different from what He wanted from His "first" wife?  That is why I believe the 10 Commands (all 10 of them) are included in the New Covenant.  They were after all, termed "the Covenant". 

Most Christians cannot tell me what is included in the New Covenant - what are the terms, or where the New Covenant is found in the Bible.  They get rather amazed when I show them that under the New Covenant, God promised to "write My law on your hearts". 

    Exodus 34:28  “So he [Moses] was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.”

    Deuteronomy 4:13  “So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.”

Paul called the Ten Commandments a "ministry of death written and engraved on stones" (2 Cor 3:7).  Why would he say that!  Reason: Because they could not keep that covenant - not in their own strength.  Under the New Covenant, with the infilling of His Spirit, we can keep that Covenant.  When we read the TenCs as something we must do for God, we are carrying a bolder between our shoulders.  The TenCs are what He will do - in us. 

 

 

Excellent!  Lot's of great points!

I'd just add that the 10 Commandments entail obedience to ALL THE REST of Torah.

After all, if YHVH is your God (Commandment #1), then will you ONLY obey the 10 Commandments, but ignore all the rest?  Of course not!

Such an idea would be ridiculous, and utterly foreign to the context.

CONCLUSION:  COMMANDMENT #1 (of the 10 Commandments) requires obedience to ALL Torah....

And sure enough, we see that ALL the Torah of Moses passes directly into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33)....not merely the 10.

Ok..blessings to you!

 

[BibleGuy]

10 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

A "new" Covenant allows for changes.  The only thing I see changed was "the priesthood" (Heb 7:12).  But if the Aaronic priesthood was changed, then the system of animal sacrifices was changed also.  The Torah required that every sacrifice be taken to the Temple at Jerusalem, to a priest of the Aaronic order.  

I've heard all the arguments for a "parallel priesthood".  They say that Christ cannot be a priest on the earth.  Well - if He has been made a priest after the order of Melchizedek, wasn't Melchizedek a priest, as well as a king on the earth?  If Christ as been made "a priest forever" wouldn't the "forever" have to include the time when He rules on the earth as king? 

At Mount Sinai the priesthood was changed FROM "the firstborn" of family or clan or tribe TO Aaron and his sons.  That was a "change". 

    Numbers 8:17-18 “I have taken the Levites instead of all the firstborn of the children of Israel.”

When Messiah died, His death wiped out the sins of Israel, including the sin of the golden calf rebellion - for those who repented.  Which means that He could then CHANGE the priesthood BACK to "the firstborn". 

And who is "the firstborn over all creation" (Eph 1:15).  Yeshua!  That is why He can legally be High Priest over the House of God.  In Him we will become priests (Rev 20:1) because we are Israel - the LORD's "firstborn".

    Exodus 4:22 [The LORD said to Moses] “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Israel is My son, My firstborn”’”.

Hi there!

I'm thinking we need to wrestle through this issue....

Heb. 7:12 changes nothing....it's TRANSFER (Gr. " μετατιθεμένης ", Heb. 7:12), not CHANGE.

Jesus was NOT a Levite!  Thus Jesus (as a MELCHIZEDEK priest) must transfer focus upon the MELCHIZEDEK priesthood rules (not the Levitical priesthood rules) so as to achieve His once-for-all priestly Melchizedek sacrifice.

Think about it.....NOTHING CHANGED!  It's the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passing into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33)....otherwise Jeremiah was a false prophet (given Dt.13:1-5).

Moreover, Dt. 30:1-8 is yet FUTURE....proving that 100% obedience to the SAME TORAH is yet FUTURE!

Again, Jesus comes to RESTORE the SAME LEVITICAL COVENANT (Mal.3:4)...it did not change!

 

"That was a "change".

Rather, the Levitical Priesthood rules were NEW and DIFFERENT (relative to the Melchizedek rules)....no priesthood rules CHANGED into different priesthood rules.

The Levitical Priesthood rules have been (and continue to be) the same.  They did not change.

The Melzhizedek rules have not changed...they continue to be the same.

Jesus comes to restore the SAME LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD RULES "as in the days of old, as in former years" (Mal.3:4).

 

"Which means that He could then CHANGE the priesthood BACK to "the firstborn". "

No change needed!  The Melchizedek Priesthood and the Levitical Priesthood BOTH exist simultaneously....

Thus, Jesus (a true Melchizedek Priest) comes (in the future!) to restore the LEVITICAL Priesthood (Mal.3:4) to fulfill the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), and to fulfill Sabbath (Is.66), and to perform sacrifices in the temple (Eze.40-47) which He will rebuild (Zec.6) when we return to inherit the land promised to us as we again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

They both work together....

 

"They say that Christ cannot be a priest on the earth. "

Christ can be a priest on the earth!  Sure He can!  And He was....and He will continue to be!

 

"If Christ as been made "a priest forever" wouldn't the "forever" have to include the time when He rules on the earth as king? "

Yes.  Agreed.

blessings....

 

 

[BibleGuy]

10 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I luv a lot of the Hebrew Roots teaching.  Can't say I like singing every song in Hebrew, or in a minor key.  I love old Christian songs like "The Old Rugged Cross".  (Guess I'm showing my age.)

If it's about understanding Scripture better, then we should also study Greek.  I do not believe that the Hebrew language is "holy" or will be the new universal language in the kingdom.  I don't see that. 

The "Torah Readings" each week focus on a portion of Torah.  As an aside, a small portion of the Prophets or Psalms is brought into the study.  In Hebrew Roots studies, a small portion of the Gospels is also read.  At the end of the year, the readings start all over again for another year.  The problem I see with this, is that the Prophets, Psalms, the entire "New Testament" is somewhat neglected - so far as an in-depth study.  They just keep repeating the Torah studies.  Please know, I'm not against studying Torah.  It's just that we can gain a lot by focused study into other books also. 

I do not say that I "keep" the Feasts.  We do commemorate them, in my home, because of what they teach us.  We also "rest" on the Sabbath.  I don't see where the LORD declared any other day "holy".  He "hallowed" the 7th day at creation - long before Sinai.  To "hallow" something is to declare it holy.  The word "holy" means "belonging to the LORD".  That day has belonged to HIM since the beginning.  It still belongs to Him.  It always will belong to HIM.   

The heaviest "problem" I have with the Hebrew Roots teaching, is the teaching that the Aaronic priesthood and the sacrifice of animals will continue in the Kingdom of Messiah.  I just don't believe that.  Already posted why.  "They shall not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain" (Isa. 11:9, Isa. 65:25).

Hi there!

Glad to see your viewpoint!  It sounds good!

But, you wrote: "The heaviest "problem" I have with the Hebrew Roots teaching, is the teaching that the Aaronic priesthood and the sacrifice of animals will continue in the Kingdom of Messiah.  I just don't believe that.  Already posted why.  "They shall not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain" (Isa. 11:9, Isa. 65:25)."

 

Is. 11:9? Is.65:25?  Sure, the animals will be at peace with each other on the Holy Mountain....but that doesn't prove we won't have animal sacrifices performed by Levites.

 

So, here's some evidence proving that Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial activity will occur again in the FUTURE:

1. Mal.3:4 is yet future.

2. Dt. 30:1-8 is yet future.

3. Eze.40-47 is yet future.

4. Jer.33 is yet future (Levitical activity)

5. Is.66 is yet future (more Levitical activity)

6. Zec. 14 is yet future (LOTS of Levitical animal sacrifices in conjunction with Sukkot)

7. Zec. 6 is a future temple Yeshua comes to rebuild....and guess what happens in the temple?  Sacrifices!

8. No Levitical Priesthood rules ever changed....they CONTINUED right into the New Covenant era (Ac.21:20;Ac.6:7;Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

9. Priests even function in the Millennium (Rev.20:6).  Priests offer sacrifices!

10. Priests function in the New Covenant era (Rev.1:6).

11. Priests continue to function in the New Covenant era (Heb.9:6).

12. The SAME LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD characteristic of Israel CONTINUES! (1Pe.2:9).

 

blessings....

 

[JLB]

21 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

My response:  Your comment assumes that Abraham's obedience was NOT obedience to God's LAWS.

 

The scripture tells us, what exactly Abraham obeyed, by which he was justified, so we don’t have to assume anything.

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

 

• justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

 

Abraham was justified when he obeyed God to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

 

By the way, Abraham did obey God’s voice, and His laws and commandments.

 

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:5

 

 

 

 

JLB

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by JLB