Daniel 11:40-12:1ff. : What Must Happen First?

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

On 4/25/2019 at 5:38 PM, Uriah said:

judgment in the future either.

Look in Matthew 24, and notice verse 38:  "³⁸ For " Starts with a preposition, showing us what it was about Noah's story that Jesus was bringing out. It was the suddenness of their demise: they were living life to the fullest right up until the water came and they all drowned. In other words, they woke on that morning thinking it would be a day just like yesterday, but they all drowned. It was sudden and with no warning.

Good for you iamlamad, you correctly understood that this suddeness here, is a surprise to the unbelievers. So many people seem to think that this is to be understood that it is about a sudden pre-trib rapture. They are not paying much attention to the details Jesus address to His disciples. So, for their sakes, let's look again:

   36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37“For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38“For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 

What do we know about the days of Noah, we do not even need to look, since Jesus Himself tells us:

They were eating and drinking marrying and giving in marriage, until Noah entered the ark, right? So now, let's ask the question: "Who are the 'they' that Jesus was referring to?" Was He talking about Noah, and His family? Certainly know, because He said they were marrying and giving in marriage. Noah and his three sons, were alreyadu married to their wives, so this statement has to be applied to those NOT on the ark, obviously.

Also, He said:  "They did not understand until the flood came, and took them all away." Again, who did not understand? Noah and family, understood quite well. The understood so well, that they build and ark because of the imminent destruction about to come upon the world.

So, it seems like it is far from the assertion of many that the days of Noah, is about a surprise about his coming for the faithful, it is only a surprise to those of the world, upon whom judgment has come. The faithful were not surprised, they were expectant.

So. those who were surprised, were the ones taken away, in judgment, not taken in the ark of safety. In Luke's version, the disciples ask: "Where Lord" as in where are they taken to? Jesus replied with:

And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

I don't know others, but to me, when I hear of bodies and vultures, I think of death, sounds like they were taken to their deaths, and of course, that was the case.

Further more, there is the context of what was said just before the talk of it being as in the time of Noah, it will be. The context is about that day:

  36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Now again, when we pay attention to the context, we observe that that Jesus was talking about His coming:

 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

So there are lots of reasons why the time of Noah passage, is not about a pre-trib rapture, as most people can see, it they bother to look carefully, for what the passages says, instead of what they want it so say:

By the way. I know that I am biased about what I believe. I am biased though because of what I have learned my studying the Bible on this topic (I used to be a pre-tribber too) for 40 years. However, I did not figure this out on my own, that the Noah things was not about an unexpected coming of Jesus, it is about his glorious second coming. I learned this from Dr. John Walvoord, ever hear of him?

I trust then, that as a well meaning students of scripture, will never misapply this passage again, but choose instead to go on to other passages that do not contradict what they are attempting to get across.

[Diaste]

On 4/23/2019 at 11:17 PM, missmuffet said:

I don't know what God has planned. I am not God. I do know that the Church has to be raptured before the 7 year tribulation starts. 

Odd. Noah and his family were tucked safely away the day destruction began which killed everyone else. 

Lot was taken out on the same day destruction fell and killed every one in the city.

But now we are taken out many years before the destruction begins and kills the rebels?

Not buying it.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

 

That's me.

My search always comes up empty. hehe

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Good for you iamlamad, you correctly understood that this suddeness here, is a surprise to the unbelievers. So many people seem to think that this is to be understood that it is about a sudden pre-trib rapture. They are not paying much attention to the details Jesus address to His disciples. So, for their sakes, let's look again:

   36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37“For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38“For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 

What do we know about the days of Noah, we do not even need to look, since Jesus Himself tells us:

They were eating and drinking marrying and giving in marriage, until Noah entered the ark, right? So now, let's ask the question: "Who are the 'they' that Jesus was referring to?" Was He talking about Noah, and His family? Certainly know, because He said they were marrying and giving in marriage. Noah and his three sons, were alreyadu married to their wives, so this statement has to be applied to those NOT on the ark, obviously.

Also, He said:  "They did not understand until the flood came, and took them all away." Again, who did not understand? Noah and family, understood quite well. The understood so well, that they build and ark because of the imminent destruction about to come upon the world.

So, it seems like it is far from the assertion of many that the days of Noah, is about a surprise about his coming for the faithful, it is only a surprise to those of the world, upon whom judgment has come. The faithful were not surprised, they were expectant.

So. those who were surprised, were the ones taken away, in judgment, not taken in the ark of safety. In Luke's version, the disciples ask: "Where Lord" as in where are they taken to? Jesus replied with:

And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

I don't know others, but to me, when I hear of bodies and vultures, I think of death, sounds like they were taken to their deaths, and of course, that was the case.

Further more, there is the context of what was said just before the talk of it being as in the time of Noah, it will be. The context is about that day:

  36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Now again, when we pay attention to the context, we observe that that Jesus was talking about His coming:

 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

So there are lots of reasons why the time of Noah passage, is not about a pre-trib rapture, as most people can see, it they bother to look carefully, for what the passages says, instead of what they want it so say:

By the way. I know that I am biased about what I believe. I am biased though because of what I have learned my studying the Bible on this topic (I used to be a pre-tribber too) for 40 years. However, I did not figure this out on my own, that the Noah things was not about an unexpected coming of Jesus, it is about his glorious second coming. I learned this from Dr. John Walvoord, ever hear of him?

I trust then, that as a well meaning students of scripture, will never misapply this passage again, but choose instead to go on to other passages that do not contradict what they are attempting to get across.

In fact, for the most part, I agree: In Matthew 24 and 25 Jesus is talking about His coming to the Battle of Armageddon. Its the context. But at the same time, there are hints of His coming before the marriage, as in the parable of the virgins. I think that Jesus was talking to Jews about the end of THEIR age, that is, the 70th week - as proven by His mention of the abomination.  However, if you imagine that gathering in Matthew 24 is the rapture, you are mistaken. The rapture Paul told us about comes just before God's wrath begins - as we see at the 6th seal.  This Matthew 24 gathering gathers from the wrong place to be the rapture, and comes 7 years or so after the rapture.

Another "however:"  His coming for His church, pretrib, will ALSO be sudden - and at a time no one knows. 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Odd. Noah and his family were tucked safely away the day destruction began which killed everyone else. 

Lot was taken out on the same day destruction fell and killed every one in the city.

But now we are taken out many years before the destruction begins and kills the rebels?

Not buying it.

Don't "buy" it, read it. Read 1 Thes. 4 & 5. Study it - for Paul tells us his rapture comes just before God's wrath - and we see His wrath beginning at the 6th seal. God is not setting any appointments for us with His wrath. We are not going to be here during His time of wrath. Anyway, Jesus point on Noah and Lot was the suddenness of His coming. He will come suddenly FOR His church, and 7 years later will come suddenly WITH His church.

[Omegaman 3.0]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The rapture Paul told us about comes just before God's wrath begins - as we see at the 6th seal.  This Matthew 24 gathering gathers from the wrong place to be the rapture, and comes 7 years or so after the rapture.

Another "however:"  His coming for His church, pretrib, will ALSO be sudden - and at a time no one knows. 

What I wonder about that position, is what is the Biblical evidence, not the conjecture and presumption from assumed inferences!

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Don't "buy" it, read it. Read 1 Thes. 4 & 5. Study it - for Paul tells us his rapture comes just before God's wrath - and we see His wrath beginning at the 6th seal. God is not setting any appointments for us with His wrath. We are not going to be here during His time of wrath. Anyway, Jesus point on Noah and Lot was the suddenness of His coming. He will come suddenly FOR His church, and 7 years later will come suddenly WITH His church.

"For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. " - Matt 24

Yes, suddenly the flood destroyed them all, not suddenly the flood swept them all up to heaven. Noah entered the ark and the flood destroyed the earth. No long gap between the gathering and the beginning of wrath. The end will be the same only this time the flood is fire.

Again, pre-trib doctrine must equate the whole of the last week with wrath. This is the false premise upon which the doctrine garners it's internal consistency. Every tenet of the doctrine is based on the false equivalency of 'tribulation'= wrath and all scripture concerning the coming of Jesus and the gathering is interpreted by pre-trib doctrine through this filter.

 

[Last Daze]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Another "however:"  His coming for His church, pretrib, will ALSO be sudden - and at a time no one knows.

The return of Christ is a singular event.  There are no returns (plural) of Jesus, or comings (plural) of Christ mentioned in scripture.

When it's time for the restoration of all things to begin, Jesus will leave heaven and appear in the clouds where every eye will see Him.  He will then sound the last trumpet and then descend to earth.  That begins the day of the Lord, the last day.

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

The return of Christ is a singular event.  There are no returns (plural) of Jesus, or comings (plural) of Christ mentioned in scripture.

When it's time for the restoration of all things to begin, Jesus will leave heaven and appear in the clouds where every eye will see Him.  He will then sound the last trumpet and then descend to earth.  That begins the day of the Lord, the last day.

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

I will agree, EACH return of Christ will be a singular event: one He comes ONLY to the air; another He comes to the earth and sets His feet down. TWO different comings for TWO different purposes: First He will come FOR His church. Next He will come WITH His church - around 7 years after. 

Yes, when He comes to the Battle of Armageddon, He will certainly come as He left. But when He comes to the air, He will be hidden in a cloud. Different coming for a different purpose. Please explain how "every eye will see Him" when He is hidden in a cloud.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

"For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. " - Matt 24

Yes, suddenly the flood destroyed them all, not suddenly the flood swept them all up to heaven. Noah entered the ark and the flood destroyed the earth. No long gap between the gathering and the beginning of wrath. The end will be the same only this time the flood is fire.

Again, pre-trib doctrine must equate the whole of the last week with wrath. This is the false premise upon which the doctrine garners it's internal consistency. Every tenet of the doctrine is based on the false equivalency of 'tribulation'= wrath and all scripture concerning the coming of Jesus and the gathering is interpreted by pre-trib doctrine through this filter.

 

Jesus was talking about HIS COMING. "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

He is not talking about a gathering here: He is talking about His COMING. The flood came suddenly; and HE will come suddenly. Those in the days of Lot died suddenly; He will come suddenly. That was His point. 

No long gap between the gathering and the beginning of wrath.  Thank you! That is exactly what Paul taught in 1 Thes 4 & 5: The rapture takes place and instantly after those left behind are caught in His wrath.  And WHERE in Revelation does His wrath begin? Of course at the 6th seal, LONG before (over 7 years) the days of tribulation are over.

It is TRUTH: written down so anyone can see it: God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and continues on through the entire week of Daniel, culminating in the vials of His wrath. Please take careful note: Jesus does not return until some unknown time AFTER the 70th week has finished.

Forget "filters:" rather think preconceived glasses: people read scripture with their preconceptions. We all must take off preconceptions and read and understand scripture as it is written.  Did John see this great crowd too large to number after the days of GT were over? NO! He was the great crowd BEFORE THE 70TH WEEK STARTED.  This agrees 100% with Paul: the rapture comes a moment before wrath begins.