Calculations about the New Jerusalem

[Diaste]

On 4/21/2019 at 10:02 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom v'chag sameach, Diaste.

I'm getting it from all those people who say that the New Jerusalem is a CUBE! If it's a three-dimensional city, how is the water getting to all the "nooks and crannies" where people will live within a cube?! This is PARTICULARLY curious for those who believe that the throne of God and of the Lamb is in the exact center of the cube, since the river of the water of life ORIGINATES from the throne! How does it flow UPHILL?!

Revelation 22:1 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

From the exact center of the cube 12,000 "furlongs" x 12,000 "furlongs" x 12,000 "furlongs," to an upper corner of the cube would be 6,000 x the square root of 3 "furlongs" or 1,195 miles! How does the river get to those areas that far away and upward the whole way?

These are the things that mathematicians and architects and city planners think about when confronted with these facts.

I see. You are making assumptions. Very well.

I guess we'll see.

Blessings

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

I see. You are making assumptions. Very well.

I guess we'll see.

Blessings

Shalom, Diaste.

Well, I make ONE assumption: One can draw legitimate conclusions from God's Word! 

If you are going to have a cube that is 12,000 furlongs long by 12,000 furlongs wide by 12,000 furlongs high, then there is NO DOUBT that  the distance from the center of the cube to an upper corner (ANY corner, actually) will be ...
6000⎷(3) furlongs.

All one has to do is cut the cube diagonally from two upper, adjacent corners to the opposite two lower, adjacent corners. This plane will cut through the center of the cube. The two sides of the rectangle formed that are between the two upper corners and between the two lower corners will still be the 12,000 furlongs. The two sides of the rectangle that connect upper corners to the lower corners on the opposite side will be diagonals of two sides of the cube. The whole diagonal would form two right triangles with legs of 12,000 furlongs and a diagonal that can be found by the Pythagorean Theorem, c^2 = x^2 + y^2. (If one divides by 12,000 furlongs first, one simply finds that c squared (c^2) = 1 + 1. So, c, the diagonal, would be the square root of 2 or ⎷(2). Multiply this back by the 12,000 furlongs, we get 12,000⎷(2) for the sides of the rectangle.)

Take the diagonal of this new rectangle d^2 = x^2 + c^2, and divide the diagonal by two. (Again, divide by 12,000 furlongs first, and one simply finds that d squared (d^2) = 1 + 2. So, d, the diagonal of the rectangle, would be the square root of 3 or ⎷(3) multiplied by 12,000 furlongs. Take half of that diagonal to find the distance from the center of the cube to the corner of the cube, and one gets 6000⎷(3) furlongs.

The square root of 3 is 1.732050808.... Multiplying this by 6000 furlongs, one gets 10,392.30485 furlongs.

10,392.30485 furlongs x (607.142222... ft/furlong) x (1 mi/5280 ft) = 1195.001337 miles or practically speaking, 1,195 miles.

Again, it doesn't matter if you're thinking of the earth as being a globe or not, you are still going UPHILL from the center of the cube to the upper corner of the cube 1195 MILES AWAY!

There are no "assumptions" to this at all! This is just simple math!

Now, from here, I do make one other assumption: A perfect God would not waste building space. Therefore, someone should be living in the area close to the upper corner of the city! So, how does water get to that location? That's all I ask.

[Diaste]

On 4/24/2019 at 5:15 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Well, I make ONE assumption: One can draw legitimate conclusions from God's Word! 

If you are going to have a cube that is 12,000 furlongs long by 12,000 furlongs wide by 12,000 furlongs high, then there is NO DOUBT that  the distance from the center of the cube to an upper corner (ANY corner, actually) will be ...
6000⎷(3) furlongs.

All one has to do is cut the cube diagonally from two upper, adjacent corners to the opposite two lower, adjacent corners. This plane will cut through the center of the cube. The two sides of the rectangle formed that are between the two upper corners and between the two lower corners will still be the 12,000 furlongs. The two sides of the rectangle that connect upper corners to the lower corners on the opposite side will be diagonals of two sides of the cube. The whole diagonal would form two right triangles with legs of 12,000 furlongs and a diagonal that can be found by the Pythagorean Theorem, c^2 = x^2 + y^2. (If one divides by 12,000 furlongs first, one simply finds that c squared (c^2) = 1 + 1. So, c, the diagonal, would be the square root of 2 or ⎷(2). Multiply this back by the 12,000 furlongs, we get 12,000⎷(2) for the sides of the rectangle.)

Take the diagonal of this new rectangle d^2 = x^2 + c^2, and divide the diagonal by two. (Again, divide by 12,000 furlongs first, and one simply finds that d squared (d^2) = 1 + 2. So, d, the diagonal of the rectangle, would be the square root of 3 or ⎷(3) multiplied by 12,000 furlongs. Take half of that diagonal to find the distance from the center of the cube to the corner of the cube, and one gets 6000⎷(3) furlongs.

The square root of 3 is 1.732050808.... Multiplying this by 6000 furlongs, one gets 10,392.30485 furlongs.

10,392.30485 furlongs x (607.142222... ft/furlong) x (1 mi/5280 ft) = 1195.001337 miles or practically speaking, 1,195 miles.

Again, it doesn't matter if you're thinking of the earth as being a globe or not, you are still going UPHILL from the center of the cube to the upper corner of the cube 1195 MILES AWAY!

There are no "assumptions" to this at all! This is just simple math!

Now, from here, I do make one other assumption: A perfect God would not waste building space. Therefore, someone should be living in the area close to the upper corner of the city! So, how does water get to that location? That's all I ask.

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. - Rev 22

And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike. On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth—the LORD alone, and His name alone. - Zech 14

 

Then the man brought me back to the entrance of the temple, and I saw water flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar.

Next he brought me out through the north gate and led me around the outside to the outer gate facing east, and there I saw the water trickling out from the south side.

As the man went eastward with a measuring line in his hand, he measured off a thousand cubits and led me through ankle-deep water.

Then he measured off a thousand cubits and led me through knee-deep water.

Again he measured a thousand cubits and led me through waist-deep water.

Once again he measured off a thousand cubits, but now it was a river that I could not cross, because the water had risen and was deep enough for swimming—a river that could not be crossed on foot.

“Do you see this, son of man?” he asked. Then he led me back to the bank of the river.

When I arrived, I saw a great number of trees along both banks of the river. And he said to me, “This water flows out to the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah. When it empties into the sea the water there becomes fresh. Wherever the river flows, there will be swarms of living creatures and a great number of fish, because it flows there and makes the waters fresh; so wherever the river flows, everything will flourish. - Eze 47

The most I could find about the river of life. Doesn't back up any assumption you are making about the location of the throne being placed a thousand furlongs+ above ground level.  As I said before water seeks it own level and  even the lowest slope will allow water to flow downhill.  I can't find any scripture to support the Throne of God and of the Lamb as located in the very center of the city but lets assume it is. At a 1% slope the throne would be 7.5 miles high, a .5% slope would place the throne over 3 miles high. Now in a practical sense that's not going to give anyone a good view of our Lord and Savior as he sits on the Throne. It's more reasonable to think the water flows from a spring under some pressure and is forced up and flows out from under the throne, down the middle of the street and out to Arabia to the sea, as in Ezekiel. 

Maybe we don't need to see the Lord on the Throne. Sure won't if the Throne is 7.5 miles in the air, or 50 miles, or a hundred, or 1500 hundred.

I think the whole premise of a pyramid and a very high throne is sketchy at best.

 

 

[Diaste]

On 4/21/2019 at 10:02 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom v'chag sameach, Diaste.

I'm getting it from all those people who say that the New Jerusalem is a CUBE! If it's a three-dimensional city, how is the water getting to all the "nooks and crannies" where people will live within a cube?! This is PARTICULARLY curious for those who believe that the throne of God and of the Lamb is in the exact center of the cube, since the river of the water of life ORIGINATES from the throne! How does it flow UPHILL?!

Revelation 22:1 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

From the exact center of the cube 12,000 "furlongs" x 12,000 "furlongs" x 12,000 "furlongs," to an upper corner of the cube would be 6,000 x the square root of 3 "furlongs" or 1,195 miles! How does the river get to those areas that far away and upward the whole way?

These are the things that mathematicians and architects and city planners think about when confronted with these facts.

It's an assumption that 'people' live in 'nooks and crannies' in the city and the river of life has to flow there. Unless you have scripture to back it up. 

In my mind as spiritual beings we wont have a need for sustenance like our bodies do while dwelling in this dimension. Things will be so different in the kingdom we can't even imagine it and making assumptions about it based on personal world view is like a newborn trying to understand Quantum Theory.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. - Rev 22

And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike. On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth—the LORD alone, and His name alone. - Zech 14

 

Then the man brought me back to the entrance of the temple, and I saw water flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar.

Next he brought me out through the north gate and led me around the outside to the outer gate facing east, and there I saw the water trickling out from the south side.

As the man went eastward with a measuring line in his hand, he measured off a thousand cubits and led me through ankle-deep water.

Then he measured off a thousand cubits and led me through knee-deep water.

Again he measured a thousand cubits and led me through waist-deep water.

Once again he measured off a thousand cubits, but now it was a river that I could not cross, because the water had risen and was deep enough for swimming—a river that could not be crossed on foot.

“Do you see this, son of man?” he asked. Then he led me back to the bank of the river.

When I arrived, I saw a great number of trees along both banks of the river. And he said to me, “This water flows out to the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah. When it empties into the sea the water there becomes fresh. Wherever the river flows, there will be swarms of living creatures and a great number of fish, because it flows there and makes the waters fresh; so wherever the river flows, everything will flourish. - Eze 47

The most I could find about the river of life. Doesn't back up any assumption you are making about the location of the throne being placed a thousand furlongs+ above ground level.  As I said before water seeks it own level and  even the lowest slope will allow water to flow downhill.  I can't find any scripture to support the Throne of God and of the Lamb as located in the very center of the city but lets assume it is. At a 1% slope the throne would be 7.5 miles high, a .5% slope would place the throne over 3 miles high. Now in a practical sense that's not going to give anyone a good view of our Lord and Savior as he sits on the Throne. It's more reasonable to think the water flows from a spring under some pressure and is forced up and flows out from under the throne, down the middle of the street and out to Arabia to the sea, as in Ezekiel. 

Maybe we don't need to see the Lord on the Throne. Sure won't if the Throne is 7.5 miles in the air, or 50 miles, or a hundred, or 1500 hundred.

I think the whole premise of a pyramid and a very high throne is sketchy at best.

Shabbat shalom, Diaste.

You're looking at prophecies about two different time periods in the future and trying to read them as though they were about the same period. Some prophecies, such as Zech. 14 and Ezek. 47, are about the Millennium and old Jerusalem. Others, like Rev. 22, are speaking of the Future Eternal State and the New Jerusalem. We're concerned with those prophecies that are indeed about the New Jerusalem. Two different cities will have two different rivers (river systems).

The throne in old Jerusalem will be David's Throne, known to be a simple, backless bench upon which David passed judgment when in court. That river will flow out from the Temple (rebuilt) and pass in two directions: One half will flow to the "former sea" or the "Eastern Sea," that is, what is called now the "Dead Sea." The other half will flow to the "hinder sea" or the "Western Sea," what we call the "Mediterranean Sea."

The throne in the New Jerusalem is called "the throne of God and of the Lamb." It is to THIS throne that we are referring. THIS throne is from which the river of the water of life flows. This river system will flow down the middle of the street wherever the street goes in the New Jerusalem, and eventually, to the gates of the city, and out to the New Earth. Thus, it splits into more than two rivers (as in the Millennium) and more than four rivers (as in the Garden of Eden). It splits into TWELVE rivers for the street splits into twelve gates.

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's an assumption that 'people' live in 'nooks and crannies' in the city and the river of life has to flow there. Unless you have scripture to back it up. 

In my mind as spiritual beings we wont have a need for sustenance like our bodies do while dwelling in this dimension. Things will be so different in the kingdom we can't even imagine it and making assumptions about it based on personal world view is like a newborn trying to understand Quantum Theory.

Shabbat shalom, Diaste.

Well, yes, I suppose it is an assumption that people will live in the "nooks and crannies" in the city. It is another assumption that the river of life has to flow there. However, I think they are valid assumptions since we are NOT told that the tree of life will not need water like any other tree. Think about where the street of the city will go within the city's limits: Presumably, it will supply a means for transportation throughout the city, and we ARE told that...

Revelation 22:2 (KJV)

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Why would the tree of life be planted on either side of the river if it didn't need the water from the river?

See, I'm not the ONLY ONE who makes assumptions. Some people have said that we will never need healing again, but look at the end of that verse! Why would Yochanan ("John") specifically say that the "leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations?" And, how do "spiritual beings," as you put it, need to be healed?

You're also making a GRAND assumption that we will be "spiritual beings!" And, another assumption you're making is that we will not be "dwelling in this dimension!"

The whole last sentence, "Things will be so different in the kingdom we can't even imagine it and making assumptions about it based on personal world view is like a newborn trying to understand Quantum Theory," is a COLOSSAL assumption in itself!

So, don't be "the pot calling the kettle black"; you make your own assumptions, too, bro'.

Also, I should mention other passages that talk about this:

Revelation 7:13-17 (KJV)

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,

"What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they (where did they come from)?"

14 And I said unto him,

"Sir, thou knowest."

And he said to me,

"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

Revelation 2:7 (KJV)

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Think about Psalm 23:

1 {A Psalm of David.}

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Revelation 21:5-6 (KJV)

5 And he that sat upon the throne said,

"Behold, I make all things new." 

And he said unto me,

"Write: for these words are true and faithful." 

6 And he said unto me,

"It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

Drink from the water that shall never run dry. LITERALLY!

[Retrobyter]

On 4/16/2019 at 8:39 AM, Diaste said:

Boring or not the playback can be sped up to show the rotation, a fast forward. I would be fine with timelapse as long as it was a continuous series of shots that could be examined for shenanigans. But it doesn't exist, only stills and there are a great many questions about those.

And it would not be 'animation' in any sense. Time lapse takes photos at intervals and playback speed can be adjusted to speed up the movie. All the great minds at NASA and no one thought of this? Why?

All of this means little anyway. God says the earth sits immovable on foundations. End of story.

'YOLO' was in reference to the discussion of the helio v geo-centric models. As if to say, "Might as well give it a try." That's all, figure of speech.

 

Shalom, Diaste.

Did I show you this?

See rotation of the earth.

[Diaste]

On 4/28/2019 at 4:40 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Did I show you this?

See rotation of the earth.

Uh huh, sure. Not on NASA's channel. Why? And I have seen the same quality on movies from the early 70's. It does not look real to me. I bet if I looked around this clip probably was made in Hollywood. Not saying it's proof either way but the explanation of how it was recorded does not fit the video. 

Still no real time video, just a composite, again. Not that it matters. Scripture says the the earth sits on foundations. 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Uh huh, sure. Not on NASA's channel. Why? And I have seen the same quality on movies from the early 70's. It does not look real to me. I bet if I looked around this clip probably was made in Hollywood. Not saying it's proof either way but the explanation of how it was recorded does not fit the video. 

Still no real time video, just a composite, again. Not that it matters. Scripture says the the earth sits on foundations. 

Shalom, Diaste.

Yep. Just as I thought you'd say. "I know what I believe; don't confuse me with the facts."

Scripture uses the word "erets" in Hebrew and "gee" (pronounced "gay") in Greek. These words were translated as "earth"; the words mean "LAND" the GROUND upon which they could grow crops, the DIRT! It's not talking about the entire ... "map" or "globe" or whatever you want to call it. And, yes, that LAND sits on foundations. (It's called "bedrock.") The earth is HUGE! Even BIGGER than you know! The crust of the earth is between 3 miles (oceanic) to 30 miles thick (continental)! However, the whole globe is 24,902 miles in circumference with a diameter of 24,902 / pi = 7,926 miles!

Anyway, believe what you want to believe; I can't MAKE you believe what you resist.

[Retrobyter]

On 5/1/2019 at 5:27 AM, Diaste said:

Uh huh, sure. Not on NASA's channel. Why? And I have seen the same quality on movies from the early 70's. It does not look real to me. I bet if I looked around this clip probably was made in Hollywood. Not saying it's proof either way but the explanation of how it was recorded does not fit the video. 

Still no real time video, just a composite, again. Not that it matters. Scripture says the the earth sits on foundations. 

Shalom, Diaste.

Y'know, you COULD google it for yourself. Just ask "are there any movies of the earth's rotation by NASA?" And, see what comes up.