Predetermined life vs. free will

[mlbrokish]

4 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

I have to stop you way up where you said, "regardless how or why God says man is to rule over his wife." I believe it was Paul who said that. I don't remember the Lord saying that.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

[mlbrokish]

4 hours ago, NickyLouse said:

Hi mlbrokish. If I assume you are talking about salvation, we have no free will. Most people are semi-Pelagianists and will say that the only thing we do to earn salvation is to believe. Do we have the free will not to believe once He reveals the truth of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus? I think not, if we have truly understood. Only someone who is not in their right mind (canceling the question of free will) would "choose" to jump out of an airplane without a parachute when given the "choice" of first putting one on. However, if you are in your right mind, you allow the parachute to be placed upon you.

What we do have free will about is to repent of our sin and thus be sanctified - set apart for God's workmanship. In that respect, our sovereign God will use whomever chooses to repent of sin (whether of commission or omission) to accomplish His will on earth. But that is ONLY AFTER salvation has been given. As I have heard said many times, we are dead in our sin and dead men make no choices concerning anything. But once we are made alive in Christ, we must choose whom we will serve.

https://www.gotquestions.org/semi-Pelagianism.html

Excerpt:

 Semi-Pelagianism allows that humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that we cannot cooperate with God's grace on our own. Semi-Pelagianism is, in essence, partial depravity as opposed to total depravity. We are sinful, but we can still recognize the truth, cooperate with God’s grace, and choose to seek Christ. We need God’s grace to be saved, but we can take the first step toward Christ on our own, apart from grace.

Thank you for the clarification and the information about Pelagianism, something I hadn't known in detail.

Blessings to you,

mlb

[NickyLouse]

22 hours ago, Mal'ak said:

There is no predetermined outcome for us, there is for this World. There is a difference there, the things in God's control he already has planned.  That is not lacking in free will, that is like us getting up in the morning with a "to-do list" and doing it (the only difference is our plans can be changed because we don't control anything in life, whereas God has power over everything is he can make sure things are done).  God knew he was going to create man, he knew man would be temped so he knew there had to be a law, he knew man would not be able to be perfect so he knew he would need to send Jesus Christ to die, and he knows some people are just evil so he will have a Judgement Day and Lake of Fire.

 

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

The concept that confuses people, is not that God controls our actions, but that he knows everything is he already knows our choices and who we will be.  That does not mean he made us that way or that he preplanned it, only that God knows everything from before creation to after.  If it was predetermined, then God would never have created satan or the fallen angels because he knew they would turn evil, he also would never have created any of the wicked people.  If there it was predetermined, he would create everyone he knew would go to eternity and the first day of creation would be the first day of eternal life and the flesh age would never have existed, but that is no fair or just to prejudge someone so the Father in his righteousness let it play out based on everyone's free will and after they show themselves to be evil he can judge them as he points to their life "See this evil you did?  This is why you must die".

 

Jeremiah 1:6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.

Jeremiah 1:7 But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

 

When God spoke to Jeremiah, did he say 'Yes Lord God I will speak all you desire me too, because I feel and know I am destined to do this!'  Not at all, Jeremiah refused to speak for God just as Moses refused to speak for God, then God got mad at them both "Say not, I am a child" for thou shall go to all that I shall send thee".  That was God's nice way of saying, 'Don't you dare tell me no, do you know who you are talking too?!' God had to visit Jeremiah twice to convince him and show him that he could do it, and that God would be with him so there was nothing to fear.  That is not predetermined as God did not snap his finger and Jeremiah turned into a robot 'Yes Lord, all you command I shall do!'

 

Jeremiah 29:23 Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the Lord.

 

God knows and is a witness of our actions, but he does not judge us before we do them.  He knows it will happen, but he gives everyone a fair chance to choose him and to be good, but everyone has free will to be good or to be evil and after we make our choice we are judged so why the White Throne of Judgement is not until the end of this age when all has been said and done.

14 hours ago, Mal'ak said:

Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

Not according to Jesus, there are good people and evil people, a good person can never truly be evil and an evil person can never truly be good.  That is why Jesus tells us to look at people's actions, if you want to know if they are really good people, or evil people pretending to be good.

 

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

There is a difference between being a sinner in the flesh, and being evil.

I see. I thought you were saying that only good people would choose to be saved.  

[gordon7777]

40 minutes ago, NickyLouse said:

I see. I thought you were saying that only good people would choose to be saved.  

Being a sinner in the flesh is being an unbeliever in Jesus Christ, and all are unbelievers, all are evil until they believe.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin

 

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

 

No good people can choose to be saved when all are described as evil.

 

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[simplejeff]

19 hours ago, mlbrokish said:

I stand corrected. Thank you.

Wrongly so.    Yahuweh (God) throughout all Scripture breathed all Scripture - His messengers were taught by revelation by Yahuweh and by Yahushua,  and all of His Word is totally in complete harmony with all of His Word - no contradictions.

 

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

18 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Wrongly so.    Yahuweh (God) throughout all Scripture breathed all Scripture - His messengers were taught by revelation by Yahuweh and by Yahushua,  and all of His Word is totally in complete harmony with all of His Word - no contradictions.

 

 

That's right .   There is not one contradiction FROM GOD .   His word cannot DENY HIM and HIS words will not deny His words .     If one thinks they have found a contradiction in the WORD , they have found only confusion and  do not understand what they read . .     

Edited June 5, 2019 by frienduff thaylorde

[frienduff thaylorde]

I Don't concern myself with matters that are too high for me .    I know what has been determined BY GOD before the world began .

THAT JESUS WOULD BE THE SAVOIR and that all who Have true genuine faith in HIM shall be saved .    For by Grace ye are saved , through faith and not that of yourselves .

Willa is right on this .    And its all we need to know .

The rest no man fully grasps .   But we can grasp THIS ,   ONLY JESUS SAVES so point the PEOPLE TO JESUS and LET GOD give the increase .   HE knows WHO is coming

and who will reject .   All we need to know is ,  ONLY JESUS SAVES so PREACH HIM and HIM CRUCIFIED and exhort true beleivers daily to continue IN HIM .   

[mlbrokish]

57 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Wrongly so.    Yahuweh (God) throughout all Scripture breathed all Scripture - His messengers were taught by revelation by Yahuweh and by Yahushua,  and all of His Word is totally in complete harmony with all of His Word - no contradictions.

 

 

 

41 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

That's right .   There is not one contradiction FROM GOD .   His word cannot DENY HIM and HIS words will not deny His words .     If one thinks they have found a contradiction in the WORD , they have found only confusion and  do not understand what they read . .     

I know, I know... I realized that after I answered that "I stand corrected".  I will humble myself to admit that I was wrong once more. thank you 

[frienduff thaylorde]

2 hours ago, mlbrokish said:

 

I know, I know... I realized that after I answered that "I stand corrected".  I will humble myself to admit that I was wrong once more. thank you 

You put those hands up sister and just let a festival of praise be sang to the LORD .      I never read what you wrote .   I was just agreeing with JEFF .

You be encouraged sister .    That's right ,    be encouraged and let all just rejoice in and praise the Lord .