Predetermined life vs. free will

[GandalfTheWise]

52 minutes ago, mlbrokish said:

I have had this question for some time and posed it to a friend the other day, although worded somewhat differently...

 

How much of our life is predetermined by God and how much is free to choose?

Consider two people:

 One person drives their car like a maniac without wearing seatbelts because they are convinced that God has determined when they are going to die and that they cannot affect that.  "When it's my time, it's my time."  They can point to Bible verses showing why this is true.

The second person is the polar opposite.  They are convinced that God will allow their mistakes and errors to occur and that they'll suffer the consequences of those things.  They can point to Bible verses showing why this is true.

My guess is that most Christians have this gut feeling that something is wrong with both mindsets though we maybe cannot fully explain why.  Or at least I have this gut reaction that both are unhealthy spiritually.    It just seems to me that neither person is handling the Bible correctly.  The challenge however is this.  To prove to the first person why they are wrong, I have to assume the second person's verses are correctly interpreted. To prove to the second person why they are wrong, I have to assume the first person's verses are correctly interpreted.  I'm in a situation where I simply know that neither way is the correct way for a Christian to live but I cannot explain why both are wrong.  As I try to prove one wrong, I prove the other right. 

As a practical matter, the many many spiritually mature Christians I've observed over decades simply accept that life consists of both predestination and free will.  They comfortably accept responsibility for their decisions and they have confidence God is directing their life.  At times, they will focus on their decisions as if their decisions are important and truly affect their lives and those around them.  At times, they will sit back and rest in God's direction in spite of what mistakes they've made.  It's like we all simply have this spiritual sense that neither extreme is spiritually healthy and should be avoided even if we cannot articulate why.  The following is my attempt to articulate why I think both extremes are wrong and that we should see our lives as being determined both by predestination and free will.

My observation is that the big argument over this comes from how Christians have tried to explain how God does things and how the Christian life works.   This question over predestination and freewill has caused much debate among Christians for centuries with neither side making much progressing in converting the other.  The challenge is that theologians who differ on this explain some aspects of Christianity differently.  The net result is that we today have denominations and churches which will thoroughly indoctrinate Christians with that particular explanation of how Christianity works.  This usually includes a detailed description of how to interpret certain Bible verses in the correct manner.   The net result is that often you can find two sincere God-serving Christians who were indoctrinated in different churches cannot in good conscience work with the other over these differences.

What has guided my thinking on this topic is this.  My observation is that I have seen little practical difference in the day to day life of Christians on either side of this issue.  I've had the chance to closely observe individual Christians, ministries, and churches over decades who come down on both sides of this issue.  It's not until they happen to be talking about this topic that I can tell what they think about it.  I really cannot tell from their behavior or the amount of fruit in their life.  The same is true when I looked at church history.  After centuries, I would have thought that some large difference in spiritual fruit and growth would have results from this difference but I couldn't see it.  This tells me that neither side is completely right and neither side is completely wrong.

Here is the way in which I summarize what I've seen.  Here are 3 statements which are intentionally simplified from the theological detail that usually accompanies this debate.

1. The Bible teaches that God is sovereign over all things and had determined who will be saved and who will not be saved.  The key point is that the Bible teaches that God determines an individual's eternal destination.

2. The Bible teaches that God has gifted humans with free will and it is the decision of each individual to accept or reject God's offer of salvation.  The key point is that the Bible teaches that God has given each individual the capability of determining their eternal destination.

3. The Bible can either teach God's sovereignty or human free will as the determining factor in salvation.  It cannot be both.

As far as I can tell, the vast majority of Christian theologians and teachers tacitly assume that 3 is true.  The group often referred to as calvinists hold to statements 1 and 3.  The group often referred to as arminians hold to statements 2 and 3.  The main thing that they agree on is that only one side can be correct.  As a practical matter, the net result is that each side has a series of Bible verse that fairly clearly support their view.  Each side is then forced to explain why the other's sides verses have to be explained in rather convoluted ways not to mean what they fairly clearly say.  Also, each side is often convinced that the other side is completely unbiblical and often cannot in good conscience work and minister alongside a mature fruitful Christian who disagrees with them on this issue.

Some time ago, I started to reject statement 3 and consider the possibility that the Bible teaches both in the same way we understand the full deity and humanity of Christ.  We take verses describing Christ's divinity and accept them.  We take verses describing Christ's humanity and accept them.  We don't try to make them contradict each other.  We just say that Christ is fully God and fully human and just focus on one aspect at a time.  I do a similar thing with regard to sovereignty and free will.  I just take verses that describe one or the other and accept them.  I'm equally comfortable talking about how God has had His hand on my life as well as how my decisions have shaped my life.  When seeing God's hand, I can see how He has moved in sovereign ways.  When looking at my decisions, I can see the responsibility I have in my life.  

As a practical matter, I think all Christians tend to inherently think this way of accepting both sovereignty and free will in our lives simply because it's how God has set things up.  We inherently understand that the following two ways of thinking just somehow are not correct in our lives.  I knew one person (who I hated to ride in the car with) who didn't wear a seat belt and drove in a, to phrase it politely, less than defensive manner.  His view was that "when God has decided it's my time to die, I'm going to die and I cannot affect that."   I knew another that basically went to the other extreme in terms of caution as if God was not willing (except perhaps in rare and miraculous cases) of intervening but would instead leave us to reap the rewards of our stupidity and bad decisions.  Even if we intellectually agree with one or the other views, neither seems right as a way of life.  At least to me, neither feels right.  To run amok because God has determined everything doesn't seem right.  To live in fear of making mistakes doesn't seem right.  As a practical matter, we all tend to live as if our decisions do affect our lives and we all tend to have a confidence that God has His hand on our lives. 

So in answer to the question of how much of our lives is predetermined and how much is free to choose, I'd say all of it both ways.

[Firm Foundation]

2 hours ago, mlbrokish said:

I have had this question for some time and posed it to a friend the other day, although worded somewhat differently...

 

How much of our life is predetermined by God and how much is free to choose?

All is determined in the sense God created us knowing all we would ever do, but we are making our own decisions.   It can be hard to grasp that both can be true, but that is the reality.

[Jostler]

to deny man's possession of free will is  to accuse God of evil.  Choosing to MAKE men sin and then punishing them  for it.  It's an untenable position completely  at odds with His revealed nature and character.

If man has no free will, then he cannot  justly  be held accountable for sin.  Adam's charge against God when he said "...this woman YOU gave me..." as an excuse for his willing choice to disobey would stand upheld in any court  of justice. 

Foreknowledge and direct interference and control are not the same thing.

The assertion that the Bible says nothing about free will is ignorant at best, and amounts to a bald faced lie whether mistaken or intentional.

 

Quote

Lev 1:3

‘If his offering is a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD.

 

 Lev 19:5

‘And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the LORD, you shall offer it of your own free will.

 

 Lev 22:19

‘you shall offer of your own free will a male without blemish from the cattle, from the sheep, or from the goats.

 

 Lev 22:29

“And when you offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the LORD, offer it of your own free will.

You  have to assume God told men to use something He didn't really give them to use.  And make Him a liar. 

He's not.

[Firm Foundation]

1 minute ago, Jostler said:

to deny man's possession of free will is  to accuse God of evil.  Choosing to MAKE men sin and then punishing them  for it.  It's an untenable position completely  at odds with His revealed nature and character.

If man has no free will, then he cannot  justly  be held accountable for sin.  Adam's charge against God when he said "...this woman YOU gave me..." as an excuse for his willing choice to disobey would stand upheld in any court  of justice. 

Foreknowledge and direct interference and control are not the same thing.

The assertion that the Bible says nothing about free will is ignorant at best, and amounts to a bald faced lie whether mistaken or intentional.

 

You  have to assume God told men to use something He didn't really give them to use.  And make Him a liar. 

He's not.

That question comes up in Romans.  Have you read Paul's reply?

[gordon7777]

"As a practical matter, I think all Christians tend to inherently think this way of accepting both sovereignty and free will in our lives simply because it's how God has set things up.  We inherently understand that the following two ways of thinking just somehow are not correct in our lives.  I knew one person (who I hated to ride in the car with) who didn't wear a seat belt and drove in a, to phrase it politely, less than defensive manner.  His view was that "when God has decided it's my time to die, I'm going to die and I cannot affect that."   I knew another that basically went to the other extreme in terms of caution as if God was not willing (except perhaps in rare and miraculous cases) of intervening but would instead leave us to reap the rewards of our stupidity and bad decisions.  Even if we intellectually agree with one or the other views, neither seems right as a way of life.  At least to me, neither feels right.  To run amok because God has determined everything doesn't seem right.  To live in fear of making mistakes doesn't seem right.  As a practical matter, we all tend to live as if our decisions do affect our lives and we all tend to have a confidence that God has His hand on our lives. "

Now lets have a third example.

Maybe even from Christs perspective, and also Apostle Paul.

Having power in front of the devils temptation to cast himself down to the ground and be lifted up by angels, but that was tempting the Lord God which we cannot do. Driving recklessly because God will save us, that one is cancelled out.

Matthew 4:⁶ And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.⁷ Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

To live in fear of making mistakes, which hurt ourselves. We see now Paul's example, of living in constant pains and sufferings, so that cancels that one out too.

2 Corinthians 11:²³ Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.²⁴ Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.²⁵ Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

 

Both those examples are not of the Gospel, but are of this world.

The third example then has to be Heavenly.

 

Oh yes, got it, because the love of God is shed into the heart to love others as yourself, you have a double reason never to hurt anyone, or triple reason, you do not want consequences for your madness, you want to know God is guarding you, but one thing is better, it is love that Christ had for everyone else other than Himself, He drives not for vain reasons, but for Heavenly ones, far out of reach of man..

 

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 

 

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are myways higher than your ways, and my thoughts thanyour thoughts.

[shortangel]

good points here,  I think God decides some things for us & the rest we have free will on,  I think we might have free will to choose our own husband or wife but God decides of that man or woman is right for us,  I think God also allows men to find their wives & women to find their own husbands,  I think God also allows us to choose what music we listen to,  books to read,  what cosmetics & dresses women wear & what is considered modest :)

[Jostler]

4 minutes ago, shortangel said:

good points here,  I think God decides some things for us & the rest we have free will on,  I think we might have free will to choose our own husband or wife but God decides of that man or woman is right for us,  I think God also allows men to find their wives & women to find their own husbands,  I think God also allows us to choose what music we listen to,  books to read,  what cosmetics & dresses women wear & what is considered modest

Free will is either total or the idea is meaningless.  You  can't be a "little bit" pregnant.  It's got  to be one or the other....both is  impossible.

[gordon7777]

9 minutes ago, Jostler said:

to deny man's possession of free will is  to accuse God of evil.  Choosing to MAKE men sin and then punishing them  for it.  It's an untenable position completely  at odds with His revealed nature and character.

If man has no free will, then he cannot  justly  be held accountable for sin.  Adam's charge against God when he said "...this woman YOU gave me..." as an excuse for his willing choice to disobey would stand upheld in any court  of justice. 

Foreknowledge and direct interference and control are not the same thing.

The assertion that the Bible says nothing about free will is ignorant at best, and amounts to a bald faced lie whether mistaken or intentional.

 

You  have to assume God told men to use something He didn't really give them to use.  And make Him a liar. 

He's not.

Now look at the free will offering they made, they freely offered service to God then service to the queen of heaven..their free will is only to offer evil, where did they ever offer GOOD..

Jeremiah 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

They being an evil tree cannot offer good fruit..

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

God made some to honour some to dishonour, all without the Lords holy spirit are evil, no conscience, and cannot acknowledge the truth, are blind and cannot see the light, their ways are ways of darkness, and as they delight in curses they receive such..

 

Psalm 109:17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.

 

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomedto do evil.

 

Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

 

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

 

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

[Jostler]

14 minutes ago, Firm Foundation said:

That question comes up in Romans.  Have you read Paul's reply?

probably...I've read romans

[gordon7777]

20 minutes ago, Jostler said:

to deny man's possession of free will is  to accuse God of evil.  Choosing to MAKE men sin and then punishing them  for it.  It's an untenable position completely  at odds with His revealed nature and character.

If man has no free will, then he cannot  justly  be held accountable for sin.  Adam's charge against God when he said "...this woman YOU gave me..." as an excuse for his willing choice to disobey would stand upheld in any court  of justice. 

Foreknowledge and direct interference and control are not the same thing.

The assertion that the Bible says nothing about free will is ignorant at best, and amounts to a bald faced lie whether mistaken or intentional.

 

You  have to assume God told men to use something He didn't really give them to use.  And make Him a liar. 

He's not.

To claim man has free will is to say man is not totally evil and can offer good of himself to God.

 

Psalm 39:5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.

 

To say man has free will, is to deny that all things we receive come from Christ, and that everything we have is equal to zero.

 

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

 

Man is held accountable for sin, as he does not know GOd, does not know good, only knows evil, and evil cannot exist with God, and the man cant say why did you make me thus..

 

Romans 9:²⁰ Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?