denominations

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

   On 7/16/2020 at 2:19 AM,  Diastesaid: 

You think so? I have thought so as well. As of 2020 I'm of the opinion the Pope is the one depicted on the back of the beast and is symbolic of the mystery religion. The center of evil practices just moved from Iraq to Italy. History seems to show the parallel between false worship, fornication with the kings of the earth, death of saints, the Inquisition a remarkable example, the exalted lives of the top leaders, etc., with the practices of the Roman Catholicism.

I'm just unsure about Rev 18 and the apparent city that's described in amazing detail. Seems to me it's a physical city that's a global hub of commerce. I don't know if that's a valid parallel for Vatican City.

Anthor City that sits on Seven Hills is Jerusalem: 

1. The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One],
    
2. The middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two], 
    
3. The highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13). 
    
4. On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name), 
    
5. The "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five],
    
6. To the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six],
    
7. And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion."

Jerusalem was even called a harlot by the Lord: 

“16 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God to Jerusalem: “Your birth and your nativity are from the land of Canaan; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. 4 As for your nativity, on the day you were born your navel cord was not cut, nor were you washed in water to cleanse you; you were not rubbed with salt nor wrapped in swaddling cloths. 5 No eye pitied you, to do any of these things for you, to have compassion on you; but you were thrown out into the open field, when you yourself were [b]loathed on the day you were born.

6 “And when I passed by you and saw you struggling in your own blood, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ Yes, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ 7 (E)I made you [c]thrive like a plant in the field; and you grew, matured, and became very beautiful. Your breasts were formed, your hair grew, but you were naked and bare.

8 “When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love; (F)so I spread [d]My wing over you and covered your nakedness. Yes, I (G)swore an oath to you and entered into a (H)covenant with you, and (I)you became Mine,” says the Lord God.

9 “Then I washed you in water; yes, I thoroughly washed off your blood, and I anointed you with oil. 10 I clothed you in embroidered cloth and gave you sandals of [e]badger skin; I clothed you with fine linen and covered you with silk. 11 I adorned you with ornaments, (J)put bracelets on your wrists, (K)and a chain on your neck. 12 And I put a [f]jewel in your nose, earrings in your ears, and a beautiful crown on your head. 13 Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing was of fine linen, silk, and embroidered cloth. (L)You ate pastry of fine flour, honey, and oil. You were exceedingly (M)beautiful, and succeeded to royalty. 14 (N)Your fame went out among the nations because of your beauty, for it wasperfect through My splendor which I had bestowed on you,” says the Lord God.

Jerusalem’s Harlotry

15 (O)“But you trusted in your own beauty, (P)played the harlot because of your fame, and poured out your harlotry on everyone passing by who would have it. 16 (Q)You took some of your garments and adorned multicolored [g]high places for yourself, and played the harlot on them. Such things should not happen, nor be. 17 You have also taken your beautiful jewelry from My gold and My silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself male images and played the harlot with them. 18 You took your embroidered garments and covered them, and you set My oil and My incense before them. 19 Also My food which I gave you—the pastry of fine flour, oil, and honey which I fed you—you set it before them as sweet incense; and so it was,” says the Lord God.

20 “Moreover you took your sons and your daughters, whom you bore to Me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your acts of harlotry a small matter, 21 that you have slain My children and offered them up to them by causing them to pass through the(T)fire? 22 And in all your abominations and acts of harlotry you did not remember the days of your (U)youth, (V)when you were naked and bare, struggling in your blood.

23 “Then it was so, after all your wickedness—‘Woe, woe to you!’ says the Lord God— 24 that you also built for yourself a shrine, and (X)made a [high place for yourself in every street. 25 You built your high places at the head of every road, and made your beauty to be abhorred. You offered yourself to everyone who passed by, and multiplied your acts of harlotry. 26 You also committed harlotry with (the Egyptians, your very fleshly neighbors, and increased your acts of harlotry to (AA)provoke Me to anger.

27 “Behold, therefore, I stretched out My hand against you, diminished your [j]allotment, and gave you up to the will of those who hate you, (AB)the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd behavior. 28 You also played the harlot with the (Assyrians, because you were insatiable; indeed you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied. 

29 Moreover you multiplied your acts of harlotry as far as the land of the trader, Chaldea; and even then you were not satisfied.

30 “How degenerate is your heart!” says the Lord God, “seeing you do all these things, the deeds of a brazen harlot.” (Ezekiel 16:1-30) 

Compare this with Revelation 17 and 18, and you can see Jerusalem is The Harlot. 

 “I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God's holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.” (Revelation 17:6) 

The First Martyr was in Jerusalem, Stephen (Acts 7) and they killed James,  “About that time King Herod Agrippa[a] began to persecute some believers in the church. 2 He had the apostle James (John’s brother) killed with a sword. 3 When Herod saw how much this pleased the Jewish people, he also arrested Peter. (This took place during the Passover celebration.[b]) 4 Then he imprisoned him, placing him under the guard of four squads of four soldiers each. Herod intended to bring Peter out for public trial after the Passover. 5 But while Peter was in prison, the church prayed very earnestly for him.” (Acts 12:1-5) 

Bloodshed of Christians in Jerusalem made them have to flee to all Judea and Sanaria: 

“And Saul approved of their killing him. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.” (Acts 8:1). 

The Harlot Babylon is Jerusalem, not Rome. The word Babylon even tells how the Jews had to be taken into captivity to Babylon because of their idolatry before the Lord in The Prophet Jeremiah’s Day. Which fits Revelatiob 18’s description of harlotries. 

I'm more inclined to believe it's a system of belief that's the best description of Babylon. Babylon represents false religion, among other things. A religion that deceptive and arrogant and it appears is powered by magic and sorcery. I'm convinced that is what Jesus spoke to in Matt 23. Clearly Jesus is dropping a nuke on the false religion and the arrogance of the priests.

A single city cannot literally have killed all the righteous on earth so neither Jerusalem nor Babylon can be the answer, as a city. Righteous blood has been shed in every country on earth so in this Babylon must be an opposing force of ideology, false religion.

"And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah..." - Matt 23

All the righteous blood on earth from Abel to Zechariah doesn't sound inclusive to the time of the destruction of Babylon in Rev 18. 

All I can see is the religious system of false worship and black magic and sorcery is destroyed and a single city is the seat of power of that false religion. The source of the lies is destroyed cutting off the head of the snake and killing the whole snake. And it is a physical city, just so I'm clear. There is no doubt the city either exists or will exist and it will be destroyed. 

But it's not Jerusalem. Jerusalem endures as a lasting legacy forever. Babylon is finally destroyed forever; the city and it's evil practices.

[David1701]

14 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

That is a strong case for Rome being the Harlot. 

However, since Pope Benedict XVI the Romanite Church has been explorimg interfaith. Pope Benddict had an Imam lead a service to Allah, Islam’s God in The Sistine Chapel. This undermines what you said, “Romanism claims authority over every country on earth, and every religion,” in this Rome bowed to Islam. 

Pope Francis is so inferfaith he said these statements: 

“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class. We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all. And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: We need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: We will meet one another there." (npr, parallels, KQED, http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2013/05/29/187009384/Pope-Francis-Even-Atheists-Can-Be-Redeemed).

This undermines Roman Catholic Supremacy. 

This does not in the least undermine RC claimed supremacy!  Do you not know that they claim that everyone can be saved (even atheists), as long as they live according to the light that they supposedly have AND ACKNOWLEDGE THE PRIMACY OF THE POPE?

Ecumenism, viewed from an RC perspective, is all about bringing everyone to acknowledge the claimed primacy of the Pope.  If they also believe RC dogma, so much the better.

[Fidei Defensor]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm more inclined to believe it's a system of belief that's the best description of Babylon. Babylon represents false religion, among other things. A religion that deceptive and arrogant and it appears is powered by magic and sorcery. I'm convinced that is what Jesus spoke to in Matt 23. Clearly Jesus is dropping a nuke on the false religion and the arrogance of the priests.

A single city cannot literally have killed all the righteous on earth so neither Jerusalem nor Babylon can be the answer, as a city. Righteous blood has been shed in every country on earth so in this Babylon must be an opposing force of ideology, false religion.

"And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah..." - Matt 23

All the righteous blood on earth from Abel to Zechariah doesn't sound inclusive to the time of the destruction of Babylon in Rev 18. 

All I can see is the religious system of false worship and black magic and sorcery is destroyed and a single city is the seat of power of that false religion. The source of the lies is destroyed cutting off the head of the snake and killing the whole snake. And it is a physical city, just so I'm clear. There is no doubt the city either exists or will exist and it will be destroyed. 

But it's not Jerusalem. Jerusalem endures as a lasting legacy forever. Babylon is finally destroyed forever; the city and it's evil practices.

Could Jerusalem (not the heavenly one, New Jerusalem)  be overshadowed by the sorcery and false religion?  Just as Pharisees ancestors killed the prophets and they killed the Christ and Christians? 

[Diaste]

53 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Could Jerusalem (not the heavenly one, New Jerusalem)  be overshadowed by the sorcery and false religion?  Just as Pharisees ancestors killed the prophets and they killed the Christ and Christians? 

Of course. I think perhaps that is what Jesus was opposing when he called the religious leaders hypocrites and vipers.

The dogma and doctrine usurped the truth.

Jesus said, "Do what they say but do not be like them." He saw their hearts that they were false. That is the spirit and religion of Babylon.

[Fidei Defensor]

8 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Of course. I think perhaps that is what Jesus was opposing when he called the religious leaders hypocrites and vipers.

The dogma and doctrine usurped the truth.

Jesus said, "Do what they say but do not be like them." He saw their hearts that they were false. That is the spirit and religion of Babylon.

Amen! He even said of the Pharisees: 

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to,” (Matthew 23:13) 

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.” (Matthew 23:15) 

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickednes.” (Matthew 23:27-28)