The True Vine and Abiding

[Debp]

Our brother JustPassingThru wrote the following in a different topic.   It's very interesting so thought I'd post it where more can read it.

 

Written by JustPassingThru...

Got any grape fields in Texas?

Ever read Steinbeck's book, …Grapes of Wrath?

 It was required reading in High School, …and during summer vacations I worked in those very grape fields, in Lamont, Weedpatch and Arvin that he wrote about.

So…, let’s take a look at that illustration Jesus was talking about, …one note (for those that are not familiar with the language of the King James), the suffix eth in the KJV means continually.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.  John 15:2a 

Every branch in me that does not continually bear fruit He, (Father, Husbandman, farmer) continually takes away.

The word taketh is airō  and means to raise up, to elevate, to lift up, …the word away is not in the original text, it was added to supposedly give clarity.

Because there are tens of thousands of acres of grapes, in the early spring the migrant worker went into the fields and raised up the branches that had fallen into the dirt and wove them back on to the overhead wires

…and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:2b

Every branch that continually bears fruit He purgeth it, …the word purgeth is actually kathairō and in the Greek it means to: to prune trees and vines from useless shoots.

As soon as summer vacation had started we were in the fields pruning the runners (new young branches that cling to the wires and will not produce any fruit the first year and if they should the berries would be tiny and sour) and cutting off all of the grapes below the fifth shoulder and any stunted grapes, leaving only eight of the largest bunches of grapes on each side of the trunk.  Why? So that there would be larger and more plentiful fruit.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 

These are the 16 bunches of grapes left on each trunk, the grapes are NOT struggling to grow bigger, they’re just hangin’ in there, it’s the trunk (vine) that supplies all of the nutrients and water for the grapes to grow.

 So is the lesson for us, …it’s the Holy Spirit that provides everything we need while we are growing, being conformed into the image of Jesus Christ and during this growing process Father is continually lifting us up when we fall, pruning away at our iniquity, our old carnal nature, and the result is Godly fruit produced in our lives. 

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6 

Remember those new young runner branches that we cut off, after pruning the field was finished the migrant workers moved on to another field and we teenagers went back through the rows and gathered them up and took them to the burn pit, …remember, they were the branches that would never produce fruit. 

Jesus explained this for us in this illustration:

Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt 7:21-23

They were never a part of the True vine, they did many carnal, fleshly, religious works, in the name of the Lord, but never produced any Godly fruit, …never any evidence that Father could see they were being conformed into the image of His Son. 

One last thing, …please notice, Jesus didn’t say, “I once knew you, but now I don’t,” …no, He said, “I never knew you!” 

Two thousand years later and farmers are still growing grapes like in the times of Jesus.  Grapes 101

Lord bless

[Not me]

@Debp

What a blessing and great read. Thanks for the re-post Debp.  

And a awesome hat-tip to JustPassingThrough! 

Such a awesome truth put forth, many blessings and may God honor the desire of your heart towards Him. 

Much love in Christ, Not me 

Edited July 6, 2019 by Not me

[GandalfTheWise]

3 hours ago, Debp said:

So…, let’s take a look at that illustration Jesus was talking about, …one note (for those that are not familiar with the language of the King James), the suffix eth in the KJV means continually.

[EDIT: Underline and red color added]

This statement is nonsense. The suffix -eth is simply the 3rd person singular present tense verb ending in older forms of English.   For more detail, a simple search for "Middle English verb conjugation" will give a number of hits.  Here's a link including some tables.  http://www.nativlang.com/middle-english/middle-english-grammar.php    If one looks carefully at the KJV usage, verbs which end in -eth will be associated with the 3rd person such as he or she singeth and never thou singeth or I singeth or they singeth.   It's thou singest and never thou singeth.  This is just how older forms of English conjugated present tense verb endings.    This would be like saying that adding an -s to a verb in modern English changes verb function and that "they sing" and "he sings" means that he continually sings because of the -s added at the end whereas "they sing" isn't continually because of the lack of the s.

 

4 hours ago, Debp said:

The word taketh is airō  and means to raise up, to elevate, to lift up, …the word away is not in the original text, it was added to supposedly give clarity.

This is very misleading.   With regard to translation of αιρω in John 15:2a as "lift up"  rather than "take away" or "cut off", pretty much every English translation uses some variation of take away or cut off.  I did a search on biblegateway.com looking at every version of John 15:2 in English.  Only the Passion Translation (which is really a paraphrase) says "lift up" in the sense the article in the OP claims.   I did a search on all Spanish versions on the site and all either use cortar (cut) or quitar (remove or take away).

The verb αιρω does have different uses in Greek including both "lift up" and "take away".  However, these uses are usually fairly clear.  When all but one of dozens of translation teams in two different languages agree on a verb's usage in a particular verse and only a single paraphrase disagrees, I think one should have a very good reason as to why they are all wrong beyond just wanting the verse to say something different.

 

4 hours ago, Debp said:

Every branch that continually bears fruit He purgeth it, …the word purgeth is actually kathairō and in the Greek it means to: to prune trees and vines from useless shoots.

Strictly speaking, the primary meaning of καθαιρω is to clean or purify.  It has derived uses in classical Greek in medicine and agriculture for specific tasks such cleaning wounds, cleaning up blood, and cleaning up trees and bushes of dead materials.  In this verse, I think the modern English word that carries the closest meaning is prune (which is what most translators choose).  I'd note that the older English word purge basically meant to wash or clean which is a direct translation of the primary meaning of the word.

 

4 hours ago, Debp said:

As soon as summer vacation had started we were in the fields pruning the runners (new young branches that cling to the wires and will not produce any fruit the first year and if they should the berries would be tiny and sour) and cutting off all of the grapes below the fifth shoulder and any stunted grapes, leaving only eight of the largest bunches of grapes on each side of the trunk.  Why? So that there would be larger and more plentiful fruit.

This is interesting and I didn't know this.  But ultimately, saying that the runners correspond to those who never knew Christ and were never going to bear fruit is reading one's prior beliefs into this verse (and surrounding ones) to make it say what they want it to say.

Overall, I think it is quite a stretch to make John 15:2 read like the Passion Translation "He cares for the branches connected to me by lifting and propping up the fruitless branches and pruning every fruitful branch to yield a greater harvest." (John 15:2 TPT)   I don't think that there is any escaping that the meaning of the passage is pretty much what it says in the vast majority of translations where the fruitless branches are taken away.  

I normally try to stay clear of the OSAS debates on this site.  However, I simply could not let the errors and misleading things in this very sloppy analysis of this verse go because of the poor example it sets.  Ultimately, this analysis is saying that only the Passion Translation has this verse correct in support of the conclusion and that the vast majority of other translations are misleading.  In addition, it seems to read prior opinions into the symbolism of this and surrounding verses and then essentially appropriate biblical authority for the opinion.

I would like to emphasize too that this article has been quoted and is not the product of the original poster of this thread.

 

[Not me]

To whom it may concern;

To argue over the human understanding of words, misses the meaning and intent of the spiritual truths the words are meant to portray; 

For God is not found in the words, God is found in the faith of the words. 

Blessings, 

Much love in Christ, Not me 

[GandalfTheWise]

As a follow up to my previous post which is basically a critique of the analysis, I'd like to add that I think that the experience with grape tending could be the basis for a great sermon, article, or devotional.   The entire process described  is a great analogy for how God works in our lives individually.

Drop out the attempts to use Greek and make theological points, and turn this into an encouraging devotional type of teaching, and it could be an outstanding one.  It's a nice concrete analogy people could envision of how God works at pruning and removing things out of our lives that are drawing time and energy away from the things that really bear fruit.   Those parts of the original post which were focused on how it applies to us individually are insightful and helpful.  Rewriting this focused on practical application and encouragement for us individually would probably yield a very good devotional that could be published someplace.

 

 

[JustPassingThru]

Whoa Deb, 

I'm speechless, thanks, but I must say all praise and Glory must go to my Lord Jesus Christ, ...for without Him I'm nothing, ...In Him, ...I'm just another tool in His tool belt.

And thanks to all who have responded.

Lord bless

[JustPassingThru]

3 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

This statement is nonsense. The suffix -eth is simply the 3rd person singular present tense verb ending in older forms of English.

Yes folks that's correct, ...in English grammar.

But, Jesus was speaking in Greek and the verb in the Greek  grammar is present active indicative , now my High School grammar is really fuzzy, so correct me if I'm wrong, but...

present means,  ...it's happening now

active means, ...the verb's subject is doing the action

indicative means, ...it's reality

So, whenever I read a verb in the King James ending in eth, ...which comforts me the most, ...knowing the grammatical person of the verb, ...or knowing, even though it's been written 2,000 years ago it's alive and active in my life today?

For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.  Heb 4:12  RV

Couple that with:

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.  John 1:14

And:

...for He hath said, I will never leave you, nor forsake you.  Heb 13:5

For me, ...in times of trouble (and other situations too), the eth puts a special, personal assurance in these verses that I'm not alone, ...my Big Brother, Jesus is standing with me!

Lord bless

 

[Willa]

I am truly glad to hear that all those eths that cloud my comprehension of King James are a blessing to someone.  

[Fran C]

I've been gone for a while and can hardly remember how to post on here.  I'm rather horrified that we're willing to accept incorrect understanding of words because they bless us spiritually.

I'm all for being blessed,,,,but at the expense of incorrect exegesis?

Jesus said why some would not be known to Him in Mathew 7:23...it has nothing to do with being saved,,,,in this case it has to do with LAWLESSNESS.  Jesus said I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

Even here Jesus speaks of bearing good fruit.  In Matthew 7:19 He states that every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down.

Jesus spoke very clearly and simply.  He's much easier to understand than Paul, for instance.

 

[Fran C]

On 7/7/2019 at 12:08 AM, Sonshine☀️ said:

One who practices lawlessness has not been called—is not saved.

That's not what those verses are saying.  You've read salvation into the scripture when it's not there.

Jesus is speaking about entering into the narrow gate that leads to life,,,but few find it.

Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing,,,we will know them by their fruit.

Jesus states that every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Not everyone who cries LORD, LORD, but the one who does the will of the Father.

But many will believe they prophecied in the name of Jesus...

and Jesus will declare to them:

"I never knew your, depart from me YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."

There's no need to wonder what Jesus meant.

He said we're to do the will of the Father and He said those that practice lawlessness will not enter into heaven.