Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[Spock]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Have had many a run in with people that operate as you do, On All sides of the fence when it comes to end time eschatology. There is one thing I Know, and that is that No man knows the whole Picture of the how the end unfolds. They may think they know, but they do not. And that person that is a know it all, and is unable to learn through the fellowship of the saints is problematic in the church as they are on forums such as this.

Yes it is God's timeline we are searching for, and I can guarantee you that you do not have it figured out as they are sealed up. For example, Do you know what the seven thunders are in rev. 10? Or what is the message that Daniel sealed up in Daniel 12:4? Or what was written in the Little scroll that John ate that was sweet in his mouth but bitter in his belly? We can speculate, we can surmise, we can logically study all these things, but we cannot fully know them.

No One of us has the whole counsel of God. To Make this claim is just mental Hubris on the Part of man. It is in fact the bad fruit of the carnal mind which is at enmity against God. (Rom 8:7) There are two kinds of Wisdom one that is earthy and comes from the carnal mind, which is increasing as we speak due to the free flow of information on the WWW, (Daniel 12:4) and then there is the Wisdom that is from God. The first thing we need to receive the wisdom that is from God is to denounce the carnal mind (Proverbs 3:5-7), and become teachable. Then Pray the Prayer found in Eph. 1:17ff that Paul prayed, and be taught by the Holy Ghost. You see, The carnal mind must be replaced by the mind of Christ. Then and only then, will Jesus become your "All in all". 

making mention of you in my prayers;

 

Eph 1:17

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

 

Eph 1:18

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

 

Eph 1:19

And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

 

Eph 1:20

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

 

Eph 1:21

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

 

Eph 1:22

¶

And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

 

Eph 1:23

Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 

Wise words my brother, very wise.  It is comical to think any of us has ALL knowledge and can’t learn new things, which includes making adjustments from what we think we know.

ive done this a lot over the years and in fact, I’ve been mocked for doing such, but I don’t care.  I am not the same person today I was yesteryear and every time I open God’s word, He reveals NEW things to me. 

So yeah, I’m okay with “changing my mind” and I’m definitely okay with reading other input from my family in Christ. They may know something I don’t and I am now being blessed with their knowledge. 

Praise God for growing in wisdom and grace....

[Revelation Man]

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Have had many a run in with people that operate as you do, On All sides of the fence when it comes to end time eschatology. There is one thing I Know, and that is that No man knows the whole Picture of the how the end unfolds. They may think they know, but they do not. And that person that is a know it all, and is unable to learn through the fellowship of the saints is problematic in the church as they are on forums such as this.

 

I learn from God not from men per se, on eschatology, there are too many versions. I do learn from select men of course, but then again the spirits have to agree. I do know that anyone who doesn't understand the timing of the Rapture starts off with skepticism on anything they say to me to be brutally honest. Its like someone talking football and saying that a TD counts for 10 points, I would be leery of anything they brought up about football from that point on.

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

 Yes it is God's timeline we are searching for, and I can guarantee you that you do not have it figured out as they are sealed up. For example, Do you know what the seven thunders are in rev. 10? Or what is the message that Daniel sealed up in Daniel 12:4? Or what was written in the Little scroll that John ate that was sweet in his mouth but bitter in his belly? We can speculate, we can surmise, we can logically study all these things, but we cannot fully know them.

 

For starters I am speaking about the TIMELINE as per the Chronology of the Book of Revelation. And yes I do know that TIMELINE:

Rev. 1, Jesus seen in all his Glory.

Rev. 2-3 is the Church Age

Rev. 4-5 is the Church seen in Heaven before the Seals have been opened.

Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16 are the Judgments/Wrath on Mankind, they last 42 Months. In Rev. 16 the Angel says " IT IS DONE !!"

The Parenthetical Citation Chapters

Rev. 10 is a Flash forward to the end, where the 7th Trumpet sounds {which loose's the 7 Vials.}

Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses showing up 75 days {1335} before the Beast comes to power at the 1260, they thus die 75 days before the Beast dies at the end of the 2nd Woe {6th Trumpet}. The Beast dies at the 7th Vial, 75 days later. This overlaps Rev. 6, 7 8, 9, 15&16. 

Rev. 12 is the Dragon/Satan chasing the Woman {Israel} for 1260 days. It starts at the First Seal in Rev. ch. 6. {P.S. It actually starts as Satan is cast out of Heaven at the 6th Seal, as the Stars, but they are all 6 opened at the same time basically.}

Rev. 13 is the A.C./Beast arising to power by conquering Israel/Mediterranean Sea Region. This also starts with the First Seal in Rev. 6/42 months.

Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter. It covers the full 7 years. The Wheat {Israel} are shown on Mt Zion as 144,000 {All Israel} and thus they grow together with the Wicked Tares, seen in verses 18-20, until their end comes via the winepress of God's Wrath. In between, in verse 14, we have the Rapture by Jesus, in a sorta soliloquy where time is suspended and the story of the Churches Harvest is told, better known as The Rapture.

Rev. 17 is the Harlot or All False Religions of All Time being Destroyed by the 10 Kings in League with the Beast. They kill her off because the Beast will demand to be Worshiped as the only god !! There is no place for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. etc. This happens in Rev. 6 at the First Seal, as he goes forth Conquering, thus the Religious Beast/False Prophet. 

Rev 18 is the Government Beast {Babylon}, or the Whole World under Satan's rule. This also starts at the First Seal in Rev. 6, the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments pummel this evil world over a 42 month time period, destroying, of course, her commerce. Babylon = The Whole World.

Rev. 19 covers the whole 7 years also. It's the Church in Heaven Marrying the Lamb, then returning with Jesus on White Horses as Conquerors, to defeat the Beast, his Kings and all their Minions ON EARTH, after we have come back from Heaven. 

Rev. 20 is the Judgment of the Martyrs and of course the Anti-Christ and False Prophet are judged and cast into hell, all the rest of the wicked are judged in 1000 years at the Second Death. So the Wicked Tares are BOUND UP, just like Jesus said, to be burned later. 

Rev. 21-22 is the Hereafter and New Jerusalem.

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The Seven Thunders have nothing to do with the timeline per se, but since the Last Thunder is shown to be the 7th Trumpet, its a good guess that the other 6 are the other 6 Trumpets being Sounded. This chapter is basically showing how Jesus wanted this told in CODED FORM. 

As per Daniel 12, I think we are indeed living in the End Times and thus I indeed understand what the 1260, 1290 and 1335 is, and I also have a thread here on who every King is in Dan. 11 and how they came to power. {Syrian Wars} 

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The 1260,1290 and 1335 below: {I admit I can explain this much better now then when I first received it, and this is an old thread.}

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12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

No One of us has the whole counsel of God. To Make this claim is just mental Hubris on the Part of man. It is in fact the bad fruit of the carnal mind which is at enmity against God. (Rom 8:7) There are two kinds of Wisdom one that is earthy and comes from the carnal mind, which is increasing as we speak due to the free flow of information on the WWW, (Daniel 12:4) and then there is the Wisdom that is from God. The first thing we need to receive the wisdom that is from God is to denounce the carnal mind (Proverbs 3:5-7), and become teachable. Then Pray the Prayer found in Eph. 1:17ff that Paul prayed, and be taught by the Holy Ghost. You see, The carnal mind must be replaced by the mind of Christ. Then and only then, will Jesus become your "All in all". 

I find these kind of lectures to be self serving brother. Please don't try to imply that I think I am the only person in the whole word who knows God. Writing these types of paragraphs doesn't change the facts of any particular case. Make your arguments on the merits, with factoids. But.....just because I seek God out in all His deep ways, should I hide the fact the He favors me with understanding ? That makes no sense brother.  God uses those who submit, we all know that, so if we can't ever be wrong, we can never discover His deep truths.

I wrote a blog I spent 7 or 8 months on and it stated Rome was THAT GREAT CITY in Rev. 17:18, but the Holy Spirit was like, you are wrong Ron, look at what John SAW....The Vision of course is Babylon The Great imprinted on her forehead !! So I had to rewrite the blog. I am never going to agree with anyone on the Rapture who is not Pre-trib, its set in stone by the Holy Spirit for me, a trillion mules couldn't drag me off that belief/understanding, nothing like the above will either....to tell you the truth, I have never got people who quote scriptures then say "SEE, SEE, SEE". Those scriptures being quoted still doesn't change the facts of the issues at hand. If someone is wrong on the facts/merits, then they are still wrong after they quote the passages.

I instead try to point towards the Gospel via the knowledge God has given me, instead of saying WRONG all the time. Of course if someone tells you 2 +2 is 7, and then you write an essay teaching 2 + 2 is 4, some people might take it personal, but I don't holler YOU ARE WRONG that is not my bag per se. I just teach what God/Jesus has taught me.....over my 33 years as a Christian. It is what it is.

God Bless. 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Revelation Man

[dhchristian]

1 minute ago, Revelation Man said:

I do know that anyone who doesn't understand the timing of the Rapture starts off with skepticism on anything they say to me to be brutally honest. Its like someone talking football and saying that a TD counts for 10 points, I would be leery of anything they brought up about football from that point on.

No, But a touchdown can count for 6 points, or 7 points or 8 points depending on the execution of the PAT. Point being, If you are stuck in saying a touchdown is seven points, You are mistaken.

I was a pretribber, much like you before the Holy Ghost started to teach me. He showed me the First thing to look for is the Apostacy/ falling away of the church. He showed me we are all Laodiceans in this day and age, and we need to understand revelation from this perspective. In the end times, there are only two groups in the church. There are the apostate/Lukewarm and there are the overcomers/saints. What was Promised to Philadelphia has already occurred, In that their age is over, and they have been kept from the tribulation. This is a hard pill to swallow, But we all must, and if we look at the church as it exists today, and the harlotry therein, That should be our conclusion.

A Little testimonial to help you understand where I am coming from. In 2007, I was a pretribber such as yourself, Yes I read revelation, and it all seemed to point in that direction. I had Lived my life up until that point in what I thought was a good Christian, Had a Wife and  Kids, work to build a nice home for myself and the family, and what not. But then the economic downturn came, and I as a Builder was hit especially hard, my world, that I had built for myself, done by my strength, and my will came crashing down. Along with all these stresses the family began to fall apart and everything I held dear was falling away. To top it all off, I was beginning to fall apart physically as well. Once I reached a point of brokenness, I remembered the LORD, Like the Prodigal son I returned to him in repentance and tears, He received me back as a son. he not only received me back as a son, but he came and supped with me, He fed me the manna of His Word, and the Water that satisfies. He disciplined me as a son as well, and those times in the wilderness were hard, But the whole time He Loved me as a Father, By which I could only cry "Abba". He showed me what was happening to me by showing me the Letter to the Laodicean church. He Told me that I am a Laodicean, and that all alive that call themselves Christians are Laodiceans. I did not understand this, because my whole life I thought I was a Philadelphian, being brought up in the fundamentalist Baptist church, and being saved as a child, attending church and what not. He gave me a calling, and a message to preach, and a means to preach that message, But I did not begin to preach this message until 2011, as those first few years were spent under His wing learning from Him and His Word, Because I had to unlearn what my carnal mind thought was right in order for Him to begin to reveal The Truth of Scripture the LIVING Word of God. Those who do not understand the concept of the living word are likely living as Lukewarm Laodiceans. By Living Word, I mean Jesus who is the Word of God, He is the Truth, and He lives through The Word of God. When You read the Living Word of God, HE reads you back, he convicts, and corrects and rebukes, and edifies you. The Word of God cuts to the Marrow, and discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart (Heb 4:12).

So I have this calling, and that is to preach to all the church, that we are all Laodiceans... Not very many want to be associated with this least of all the churches, so needless to say there is a lot of rejection there. But what this message does is exposes the spiritual pride of those who are in the churches. It exposes the Blindness, the wretchedness of what is called church. It exposes the heart, and the intents of those who are to hear the message. Ultimately my eschatology is Built off of this understanding, Knowing that we in this church age are going to enter the Great tribulation, But by his mercy we will not experience His Wrath, so long as we are overcomers. We Overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony (martyria)… (Rev 12:11) 

The Overcomers of this age consist of two groups, the faithful, and the saints. The saints are those who are chosen by Lot by the LORD to suffer at the hands of the Beast, The faithful are the Bride, which is protected. The Luke warm of this church become the Woman/ Harlot, and of rev. 17. This process is explained in detail in Matthew 24:9-14, and the counterpart in Luke 21, of Love waxing cold and brothers and family members betraying one another.  Most church people hearing this message will reject it, Only a few will receive it and take the steps required of this church to overcome. This is not what you were taught in Sunday school or by Hireling Preachers and teachers. In fact this is the first group I was sent to give this message to, which comes with the phrase "can the teacher be taught". God Cares for his servants the preachers and teachers, and has extended this message to them first, to return to Him, and learn from Him. Again, many reject this message.

When I have more time, I will expound on my timeline, needless to say it begins with the falling away, and the revelation of the man of Sin. Some put this in the middle of the final week, I put this in the beginning of the Week, Just like Jesus did in the Olivet discourse...

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.          

Matthew 24:14.

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The 1260,1290 and 1335 below:

I Will show you a fulfillment of the 1290,and 1335 days to consider... all need to consider this as this point to the year we live in. I am not setting dates, But when I was looking at these things he showed this to me.

599Bc is the year the daily sacrifice ended in the temple, as the temple was looted by the Babylonian, This is also the year Daniel went into exile, Ezekiel preceded him in 605BC. 1290 day years from that is 692AD. This was the year the Dome of the rock was dedicated on the temple mount (set up as the wording puts it). 1335 years from then is 2027, which is exactly the start of the third millennial day from when Jesus began his ministry and John the Baptist began the preaching of the dispensation of the Gospel of the kingdom (Luke 16:16)

Somewhere around 687/88 is when the construction of the Dome of the Rock began. 1260 years from then is 1947/48, when Israel became a nation. 1290 years before that is 605 Ad when the exile began.

573 BC is the year Ezekiel received his vision of the Millennial temple. Counting by 50 year Jubilee cycles, you come to both 26/27 Ad and 2026/27 Ad. 

The accuracy of these numbers is to hard to ignore for me.

Edited July 13, 2019 by dhchristian

[Spock]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

No, But a touchdown can count for 6 points, or 7 points or 8 points depending on the execution of the PAT. Point being, If you are stuck in saying a touchdown is seven points, You are mistaken.

I was a pretribber, much like you before the Holy Ghost started to teach me. He showed me the First thing to look for is the Apostacy/ falling away of the church. He showed me we are all Laodiceans in this day and age, and we need to understand revelation from this perspective. In the end times, there are only two groups in the church. There are the apostate/Lukewarm and there are the overcomers/saints. What was Promised to Philadelphia has already occurred, In that their age is over, and they have been kept from the tribulation. This is a hard pill to swallow, But we all must, and if we look at the church as it exists today, and the harlotry therein, That should be our conclusion.

A Little testimonial to help you understand where I am coming from. In 2007, I was a pretribber such as yourself, Yes I read revelation, and it all seemed to point in that direction. I had Lived my life up until that point in what I thought was a good Christian, Had a Wife and  Kids, work to build a nice home for myself and the family, and what not. But then the economic downturn came, and I as a Builder was hit especially hard, my world, that I had built for myself, done by my strength, and my will came crashing down. Along with all these stresses the family began to fall apart and everything I held dear was falling away. To top it all off, I was beginning to fall apart physically as well. Once I reached a point of brokenness, I remembered the LORD, Like the Prodigal son I returned to him in repentance and tears, He received me back as a son. he not only received me back as a son, but he came and supped with me, He fed me the manna of His Word, and the Water that satisfies. He disciplined me as a son as well, and those times in the wilderness were hard, But the whole time He Loved me as a Father, By which I could only cry "Abba". He showed me what was happening to me by showing me the Letter to the Laodicean church. He Told me that I am a Laodicean, and that all alive that call themselves Christians are Laodiceans. I did not understand this, because my whole life I thought I was a Philadelphian, being brought up in the fundamentalist Baptist church, and being saved as a child, attending church and what not. He gave me a calling, and a message to preach, and a means to preach that message, But I did not begin to preach this message until 2011, as those first few years were spent under His wing learning from Him and His Word, Because I had to unlearn what my carnal mind thought was right in order for Him to begin to reveal The Truth of Scripture the LIVING Word of God. Those who do not understand the concept of the living word are likely living as Lukewarm Laodiceans. By Living Word, I mean Jesus who is the Word of God, He is the Truth, and He lives through The Word of God. When You read the Living Word of God, HE reads you back, he convicts, and corrects and rebukes, and edifies you. The Word of God cuts to the Marrow, and discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart (Heb 4:12).

So I have this calling, and that is to preach to all the church, that we are all Laodiceans... Not very many want to be associated with this least of all the churches, so needless to say there is a lot of rejection there. But what this message does is exposes the spiritual pride of those who are in the churches. It exposes the Blindness, the wretchedness of what is called church. It exposes the heart, and the intents of those who are to hear the message. Ultimately my eschatology is Built off of this understanding, Knowing that we in this church age are going to enter the Great tribulation, But by his mercy we will not experience His Wrath, so long as we are overcomers. We Overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony (martyria)… (Rev 12:11) 

The Overcomers of this age consist of two groups, the faithful, and the saints. The saints are those who are chosen by Lot by the LORD to suffer at the hands of the Beast, The faithful are the Bride, which is protected. The Luke warm of this church become the Woman/ Harlot, and of rev. 17. This process is explained in detail in Matthew 24:9-14, and the counterpart in Luke 21, of Love waxing cold and brothers and family members betraying one another.  Most church people hearing this message will reject it, Only a few will receive it and take the steps required of this church to overcome. This is not what you were taught in Sunday school or by Hireling Preachers and teachers. In fact this is the first group I was sent to give this message to, which comes with the phrase "can the teacher be taught". God Cares for his servants the preachers and teachers, and has extended this message to them first, to return to Him, and learn from Him. Again, many reject this message.

When I have more time, I will expound on my timeline, needless to say it begins with the falling away, and the revelation of the man of Sin. Some put this in the middle of the final week, I put this in the beginning of the Week, Just like Jesus did in the Olivet discourse...

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.          

Matthew 24:14.

Thanks for sharing brother. 

Im sorry life kicked you in the teeth like it did. Bummer.....I know you and others may feel that was necessary, etc, but through my eyes, when part of the Body of Christ hurts, then so do I. 

As for your insight regarding we are the Laodicea Church, all,of us....well, I do agree for the most part we are, but I can’t accept EVERYONE is in that camp and thus will suffer the consequences of being spit out of his mouth.....

One final point....there are many references in the Word that the Body of Christ will not experience God’s wrath. If you say all of us have to go through it and only the Faithful are protected, then I guess you can say that promise of being kept from His wrath only applies to a select few. That smells like a PARTIAL RAPTURE without the rapture.  I just can’t accept this at all.

”For God has not destined US (the us is the Body of Christ, not just a select few) for wrath.......”

Thank you for sharing your testimony and thank you for sharing your insight.  I am not the judge of truth and I admit, even though I have been studying prophecy for almost 40 years, I still feel like I don’t know much.....but when I read something that just doesn’t GRAB ME, like a lot of what you said, I usually reject it. But, I will say, I have several times rejected a doctrine only to accept it later on as I continue to grow in grace and wisdom.....so you never know.  You probably have picked it up, I actually think one of two possible theories can work, regarding the rapture....pre Trib and mid Trib. 

You sound like a great guy and you have shared a bunch of wise words here on this thread.  I am glad to be your brother in Christ.

cheers,

Spock

[Spock]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I learn from God not from men per se, on eschatology, there are too many versions. I do learn from select men of course, but then again the spirits have to agree. I do know that anyone who doesn't understand the timing of the Rapture starts off with skepticism on anything they say to me to be brutally honest. Its like someone talking football and saying that a TD counts for 10 points, I would be leery of anything they brought up about football from that point on.

For starters I am speaking about the TIMELINE as per the Chronology of the Book of Revelation. And yes I do know that TIMELINE:

Rev. 1, Jesus seen in all his Glory.

Rev. 2-3 is the Church Age

Rev. 4-5 is the Church seen in Heaven before the Seals have been opened.

Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16 are the Judgments/Wrath on Mankind, they last 42 Months. In Rev. 16 the Angel says " IT IS DONE !!"

The Parenthetical Citation Chapters

Rev. 10 is a Flash forward to the end, where the 7th Trumpet sounds {which loose's the 7 Vials.}

Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses showing up 75 days {1335} before the Beast comes to power at the 1260, they thus die 75 days before the Beast dies at the end of the 2nd Woe {6th Trumpet}. The Beast dies at the 7th Vial, 75 days later. This overlaps Rev. 6, 7 8, 9, 15&16. 

Rev. 12 is the Dragon/Satan chasing the Woman {Israel} for 1260 days. It starts at the First Seal in Rev. ch. 6.

Rev. 13 is the A.C./Beast arising to power by conquering Israel/Mediterranean Sea Region. This also starts with the First Seal in Rev. 6/42 months.

Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter. It covers the full 7 years. The Wheat {Israel} are shown on Mt Zion as 144,000 {All Israel} and thus they grow together with the Wicked Tares in verses 18-20 until their end comes via the winepress of God's Wrath. In between, in verse 14, we have the Rapture by Jesus, in a sorta soliloquy where time is suspended and the story of the Churches Harvest is told. 

Rev. 17 is the Harlot or All False Religions of All Time being Destroyed by the 10 Kings in League with the Beast. They kill her off because the Beast will demand to be Worshiped as the only god !! There is no place for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. etc. This happens in Rev. 6 at the First Seal.

Rev 18 is the Government Beast {Babylon}, or the Whole World under Satan's rule. This also starts at the First Seal in Rev. 6, the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments pummel this evil world over a 42 month time period, destroying, of course, her commerce. Babylon = The Whole World.

Rev. 19 covers the whole 7 years also. Its the Church in Heaven Marrying the Lamb, then returning with Jesus on White Horses as Conquerors, to defeat the Beast, his Kings and all their Minions ON EARTH, after we have come back from Heaven. 

Rev. 20 is the Judgment of the Martyrs and of course the Anti-Christ and False Prophet are judged and cast into hell, all the rest of the wicked are judged in 1000 years at the Second Death. So the Wicked Tares are BOUND UP, just like Jesus said, to be burned later. 

Rev. 21-22 is the Hereafter and New Jerusalem.

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The Seven Thunders have nothing to do with the timeline per se, but since the Last Thunder is shown to be the 7th Trumpet, its a good guess that the other 6 are the other 6 Trumpets being Sounded. This chapter is basically showing how Jesus wanted this told in CODED FORM. 

As per Daniel 12, I think we are indeed living in the End Times and thus I indeed understand what the 1260, 1290 and 1335 is, and I also have a thread here on who every King is in Dan. 11 and how they came to power. {Syrian Wars} 

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The 1260,1290 and 1335 below: {I admit I can explain this much better now then when I first got it, and this is an old thread.}

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I find these kind of lectures to be self serving brother. Please don't try to imply that I think I am the only person in the whole word who knows God. Writing these types of paragraphs doesn't change the facts of any particular case. Make your arguments on the merits, with factoids. But just because I seek God out in all His deep ways, should I hide the fact the He favors me with understanding ? That makes no sense brother.  God uses those who submit, we all know that, so if we can't ever be wrong, we can never discover His deep truths.

I wrote a blog I spent 7 or 8 months on and it stated Rome was THAT GREAT CITY in Rev. 17:18, but the Holy Spirit was like, you are wrong Ron, look at what John SAW....The Vision of course is Babylon The Great imprinted on her forehead !! So I had to rewrite the blog. I am never going to agree with anyone on the Rapture who is not Pre-trib, its set in stone by the Holy Spirit, a trillion mules couldn't drag me off that belief/understanding, nothing like the above will either....to tell you the truth, I have never got people who quote scriptures then say "SEE, SEE, SEE". Those scriptures being quoted still doesn't change the facts of the issues at hand. If someone is wrong on the facts/merits, then they are still wrong after they quote the passages.

I instead try to point towards the Gospel via the knowledge God has given me, instead of saying WRONG all the time. Of course if someone tells you 2 +2 is 7, and then you write an essay teaching 2 + 2 is 4, some people might take it personal, but I don't holler YOU ARE WRONG that is not my bag per se. I just teach what God/Jesus has taught me.....over my 33 years as a Christian. It is what it is.

God Bless. 

Great job Rev Man.....great job explaining your position and defending it with scripture. 

The hardest part for me is seeing the Seals open at the abomination of desolation. Basically you are putting 21 judgments all in the great tribulation. 

But.....here is the good news....this actually can support my mid Trib theory. God promises us we will be kept from his wrath.....well, his wrath is all in the final 3.5 years and we are gone before then. The rapture doesn’t necessarily have to be before the week starts according to your way of thinking. I think you believe the rapture has to take place before the week  because you think the week is only a Jewish thing. Is that correct? If not, why does the church have to be gone before the week....why can’t they just be gone before the seals, trumpets, and bowl judgments? 

[dhchristian]

3 minutes ago, Spock said:

One final point....there are many references in the Word that the Body of Christ will not experience God’s wrath. If you say all of us have to go through it and only the Faithful are protected, then I guess you can say that promise of being kept from His wrath only applies to a select few. That smells like a PARTIAL RAPTURE without the rapture.  I just can’t accept this at all.

No Partial rapture, and no The body and bride of Christ will not experience the wrath of God. Never has the righteous ever witnessed the wrath of God... Noah was locked in an ark, Lot was told not to look back, The Israelites were sealed behind the blood of the Lamb. So I differentiate between wrath and tribulation, and the rapture is at the sixth seal/sixth trumpet, concurrent with the rapture of the two witnesses All One rapture. Unlike you all I see the beast of Rev 13 ruling during this first half of the final week. The second half is for Israel, who though part of the first half of the week will enter the wrath of God and drink of that cup till drunk, but will be spared.

[dhchristian]

23 minutes ago, Spock said:

One final point....there are many references in the Word that the Body of Christ will not experience God’s wrath. If you say all of us have to go through it and only the Faithful are protected, then I guess you can say that promise of being kept from His wrath only applies to a select few. That smells like a PARTIAL RAPTURE without the rapture.  I just can’t accept this at all.

Where you possibly misread me, is that the faithful and the saints are all overcomers. The Faithful are the bride, the saints chosen by Lot are called to suffer. Protection is not the same as rapture.  

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Rev 19:8 

 

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

No, But a touchdown can count for 6 points, or 7 points or 8 points depending on the execution of the PAT. Point being, If you are stuck in saying a touchdown is seven points, You are mistaken.

Of course you miss the gist of the argument brother by concentrating on the TD and not the overall point.

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I was a pretribber, much like you before the Holy Ghost started to teach me. He showed me the First thing to look for is the Apostacy/ falling away of the church.

For starters, 2 Thess. 2 doesn't mean a "FALLING AWAY" it means a DEPARTURE [of the Church] and the first 7 English translations had Departure as did the Latin Vulgate {discessio} for 1000 years before that. So you are looking towards a "FALLING AWAY" or a Departure from the Faith when FAITH has zero to do with the whole passage !! Paul used a definite article, thus it was pointing unto a particular Departure. That Departure is shown in the very first verse when it speaks about the Gathering together unto the Lord {Rapture}. So Paul says clearly, the Departure {gathering together unto the Lord} MUST HAPPEN BEFORE the Day of the Lord {God's Wrath} can come upon you Thessalonians, which is what they feared, that they were all of the sudden in God's Wrath, they of course weren't. The Departure of the Church must come first, AND the Man of Sin must also come, BEFORE the Day of the Lord can be upon you Thessalonians, is what Paul was saying. Now the world does get more evil, just like Romans 1 says, but that has nothing to do with the Departure verses Paul was speaking about t the Thessalonians. 

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

He showed me we are all Laodiceans in this day and age, and we need to understand revelation from this perspective.

I do believe this is Metaphorical, and the Church Age has different periods, but there are also all of the different types of Churches in every age. In other words there are faithful Churches today of course. 

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

In the end times, there are only two groups in the church. There are the apostate/Lukewarm and there are the overcomers/saints. What was Promised to Philadelphia has already occurred, In that their age is over, and they have been kept from the tribulation. This is a hard pill to swallow, But we all must, and if we look at the church as it exists today, and the harlotry therein, That should be our conclusion.

One has to study this to understand what the lukewarm means, but the viaduct that carried the waters from place to place for Rome had heated water for baths and cold water for drinking, but the lukewarm water was good for neither bathing or drinking. It still means the same thing of course, but we have to heed it in that contextual conglomeration. So Jesus is telling his followers to either follow him or not, don't be an inbetween pretender, you thus fool yourself into thinking you are headed to Heaven, at least sinners know they need forgiveness, if that makes sense. 

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

A Little testimonial to help you understand where I am coming from. In 2007, I was a pretribber such as yourself, Yes I read revelation, and it all seemed to point in that direction. I had Lived my life up until that point in what I thought was a good Christian, Had a Wife and  Kids, work to build a nice home for myself and the family, and what not. But then the economic downturn came, and I as a Builder was hit especially hard, my world, that I had built for myself, done by my strength, and my will came crashing down. Along with all these stresses the family began to fall apart and everything I held dear was falling away. To top it all off, I was beginning to fall apart physically as well. Once I reached a point of brokenness, I remembered the LORD, Like the Prodigal son I returned to him in repentance and tears, He received me back as a son. he not only received me back as a son, but he came and supped with me, He fed me the manna of His Word, and the Water that satisfies. He disciplined me as a son as well, and those times in the wilderness were hard, But the whole time He Loved me as a Father, By which I could only cry "Abba". He showed me what was happening to me by showing me the Letter to the Laodicean church. He Told me that I am a Laodicean, and that all alive that call themselves Christians are Laodiceans. I did not understand this, because my whole life I thought I was a Philadelphian, being brought up in the fundamentalist Baptist church, and being saved as a child, attending church and what not. He gave me a calling, and a message to preach, and a means to preach that message, But I did not begin to preach this message until 2011, as those first few years were spent under His wing learning from Him and His Word, Because I had to unlearn what my carnal mind thought was right in order for Him to begin to reveal The Truth of Scripture the LIVING Word of God. Those who do not understand the concept of the living word are likely living as Lukewarm Laodiceans. By Living Word, I mean Jesus who is the Word of God, He is the Truth, and He lives through The Word of God. When You read the Living Word of God, HE reads you back, he convicts, and corrects and rebukes, and edifies you. The Word of God cuts to the Marrow, and discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart (Heb 4:12).

I have been a Christian 33 years, so I understand the ups and downs brother. I have not smoked a Cig. or drank one ounce of Spirits/Wine/Beer since I was aged 23. But of course we all fall short brother at various times, here and there. I also understand, as you do I am sure, that Satan can appear as an Angel of light at times and we have to be weary. God will never lead us wrong but we have to train ourselves to hear His voice and to see Satan's lies also. As a preacher of over 30 years, what I have found out brother is that we need to stay well rounded, when we get to narrowly focused we tend to be going off the rails or on a tangent of sorts. Everything has to fit together like a mosaic. 

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

So I have this calling, and that is to preach to all the church, that we are all Laodiceans... Not very many want to be associated with this least of all the churches, so needless to say there is a lot of rejection there. But what this message does is exposes the spiritual pride of those who are in the churches. It exposes the Blindness, the wretchedness of what is called church. It exposes the heart, and the intents of those who are to hear the message. Ultimately my eschatology is Built off of this understanding, Knowing that we in this church age are going to enter the Great tribulation, But by his mercy we will not experience His Wrath, so long as we are overcomers. We Overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony (martyria)… (Rev 12:11) 

Revelation is so complex it can lead some people astray/off kilter. For instance, I can prove 100 percent by using Rev. 12:15-17 that the Church is in Heaven at this very time. But before I do that brother lets take a look at the scripture that you quoted. Satan was cast out of Heaven then we get this

Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Our brothers overcame Satan by the Blood, all of our brothers down through all the Church Age, thus the THEM. Now as per proving the RAPTURE in verses 15-17 !!

Rev. 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So how does this prove 100 percent the Rapture ? Well who is the Woman ? Well of course it is Israel, Genesis 37:9 tells us that. So the Dragon/Satan CAN'T GET AT the Woman or those 1/3 {Zechariah 13:8-9} who REPENT and thus Flee Judea unto the Petra/Bozrah area. Thus he gets ANGRY and goes after the REMNANT of HER SEED.....well who might that be ? Well it can't the the Jews at all, the 1/3 who Flee are Protected and the 2/3 who do not flee and perish according to Zechariah 13:8-9, do not keep the Commandments of God NOR have the Testimony of Jesus do they ? So it can't be ANY Jews !! So who is it ? Well, it is a REMNANT.....which means a SMALL PART of something that is left. Since it can't be a Jewish Remnant then it has to be the Remnant of the Raptured Church !! It has to be....there is no ifs ands or buts about it !! 

These are the Martyred Saints under the Altar in the 5th Seal, the Jewish Saints who repented will be protected, those Gentiles who missed the Rapture and come to Christ during the Tribulation are of course the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ, the Church is in Heaven at this time Marrying the Lamb. These same Martyred Saints are judged in Rev. 20:4 and found to have not taken {specifically} the Mark of the Beast, and thus THEY live and reign with Christ 1000 years. 

So the OVERCOMERS are the Church Age overcomers brother. The way they wrote 2000 years ago was odd, I grant you, but it is legible, with effort. 

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The Overcomers of this age consist of two groups, the faithful, and the saints. The saints are those who are chosen by Lot by the LORD to suffer at the hands of the Beast,

My explanation above explains this. The Jews are protected for a reason, God Promised Abraham a SEED Forevermore. Jesus will rule 1000 years from Jerusalem. So there must be a seed of Abraham left, and God can not lie. By the way, in Rev. 12:17, Jesus is THAT SEED, remember Galatians ch. 3 ? I don't think God chooses some to suffer, He has plans/reasonings why He does things. In this case the Jews have to be protected to make sure there are Jews left for Jesus to rule with, and that His promise to Abraham is thus fulfilled. The Gentile Christians TARRIED, thus they have to lay down their lives for their Faith now, but in the end they will still be with Christ Jesus in Heaven, except first they will rule on earth with Jesus for 1000 years.  

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The faithful are the Bride, which is protected.

The Bride is in Heaven brother, SEE Rev. 19.

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The Luke warm of this church become the Woman/ Harlot, and of rev. 17. This process is explained in detail in Matthew 24:9-14, and the counterpart in Luke 21, of Love waxing cold and brothers and family members betraying one another. 

Matt. 24:9-14 is still the Church Age. The Harlot is ALL FALSE RELIGION of ALL TIME being Judged or Destroyed. 

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Most church people hearing this message will reject it, Only a few will receive it and take the steps required of this church to overcome. This is not what you were taught in Sunday school or by Hireling Preachers and teachers.

Always be weary when people say we have a "special message" the Mormons sprang up from that type of thinking. 

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

In fact this is the first group I was sent to give this message to, which comes with the phrase "can the teacher be taught". God Cares for his servants the preachers and teachers, and has extended this message to them first, to return to Him, and learn from Him. Again, many reject this message.

When I have more time, I will expound on my timeline, needless to say it begins with the falling away, and the revelation of the man of Sin. Some put this in the middle of the final week, I put this in the beginning of the Week, Just like Jesus did in the Olivet discourse...

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.          

After verse 14 the END = the Rapture then the 70th Week end times. 

God Bless....

Edited July 14, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Spock said:

Great job Rev Man.....great job explaining your position and defending it with scripture. 

The hardest part for me is seeing the Seals open at the abomination of desolation. Basically you are putting 21 judgments all in the great tribulation. 

But.....here is the good news....this actually can support my mid Trib theory. God promises us we will be kept from his wrath.....well, his wrath is all in the final 3.5 years and we are gone before then. The rapture doesn’t necessarily have to be before the week starts according to your way of thinking. I think you believe the rapture has to take place before the week  because you think the week is only a Jewish thing. Is that correct? If not, why does the church have to be gone before the week....why can’t they just be gone before the seals, trumpets, and bowl judgments? 

It's not just one thing, but many things that point towards a 7 year Heavenly visit by the Church. For starters the Church is seen in Heaven in Revelation chapters 4 and 5.

Rev. 4 and 5 is the Raptured Church in Heaven, we see the Elders of the Church in Heaven wearing White. The 24 Elders are the Church. The reasons are many, I will list them below:

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4.

* A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 )

* A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 )

* A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 )

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The 7 Feasts of Leviticus 23  also tell us the whole history of the world in a sorta parable. 

 Spring Feasts

1.) Feast of Passover {Jesus fulfilled this on he exact date and the exact hour.}

2.) Feast of Unleavened Bread { Jesus was of course without sin.}

3.) Feast of First-fruits {Jesus is the first-fruits of the grave/dead.}

Harvest/Church Age

4.) Feast of Pentecost or the Harvest also known as the Feast of Weeks { We are in the Church Age Harvest as we speak. It is of course separated on the Calendar from all the other Feasts, its all alone by itself. When the Trumpet Sounds {Jesus' call} the Church Age will end with the Come up hither of Revelation 4:1, thus the LAST TRUMP Paul was speaking of is like unto the Feast of Trumpets which END THE HARVEST !! Then comes Atonement. }

 

Fall Feasts

5.) Feast of Trumps { This did very little, except ANNOUNCE THINGS, thus it announced the Harvest {Church Age} was OVER, and that Atonement and Tabernacle were both Nigh at hand. Thus, IMHO, the Last Trump is speaking about this, the Trumpet Call of Jesus to the Church, to come up hither.

6.) Feast of Atonement { Now that the Church is gone, Israel is back on the clock, they must repent or ATONE before the 70th week ends according to the Prophecy. Thus Israel Atones AFTER the Harvest or Church Age ends. }

7.) Feast of Tabernacle { The Word Tabernacle means to DWELL with God, thus after Israel repents and accepts Jesus as their Messiah, they will dwell with God/Jesus for 1000 years. } 

So it also fits the pattern of the Feasts, half of which were fulfilled in the proper season, the Harvest is in its proper season.....We await the LAST TRUMP.

There is a thread of continuity that flows through the seven feasts, or appointed times, first given by the Lord. Here are the steps taken in completing the Jewish wedding and its application to the wedding of the Church to the Lord Jesus, followed by how this ties to the seven appointed feasts of Israel:

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of Firstfruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

The Spring Feasts have all been fulfilled.

Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22.

Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

3 – The Betrothal 
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The entire Holy Bible is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the first Day of Pentecost to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” The marriage was consummated in the wedding chamber. The Bride and Groom stayed in that wedding chamber for seven days.

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

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There are more reasonings of course, but that is a start. Since we go to the Father's House to marry the Lamb, it's pretty safe to assume that we will be treated in like manner as a Jewish Bride via the Jewish Marriage traditions. 

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Revelation Man